Can Disney admit that FP+ and MDE are a fail?

[redrosesix]

You think the would build the speedway if they had to do it over again?

good point -- although it seemed kind of random

I'm not a fan of the speedway and I don't see why it's in tomorrowland. I just don't get it

 

[famy27]

And if you play it backwards, it says, "The Yeti is dead."

No, no. He's resting. He's probably pining for the fjords.

Also, regarding FP+, I wish to register a complaint. Sorry, we're closing for lunch


My complaint is that you can only have three. "Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached" then you have useth all your FP+s.

Standard IQ. tests gave the following results. The penguins scored badly when compared with primitive human sub-groups like the bushmen of the Kalahari but better than Disney executives. The Disney executives' surprisingly high total here can be explained away as being within the ordinary limits of statistical error.

Everything in Disney can be related to a Monty Python skit.

 

[Paula Sedley-Burke]

Great response. It worked better given your personal situation, but there are still things that you would like to see changed. I suspect that this will be a common refrain here, which sort of raises the question why so many people are telling the compainers to stop complaining. If one wants change, one has to ask for change.

Exactly. No system is perfect there are always things that work and things that need improving. At the end of the day it's about the money though.
I think they will only change it if the attendance figures drop or the merchandise sales drop.

 

[flicx]

No, no. He's resting. He's probably pining for the fjords.

Also, regarding FP+, I wish to register a complaint. Sorry, we're closing for lunch


My complaint is that you can only have three. "Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached" then you have useth all your FP+s.

Standard IQ. tests gave the following results. The penguins scored badly when compared with primitive human sub-groups like the bushmen of the Kalahari but better than Disney executives. The Disney executives' surprisingly high total here can be explained away as being within the ordinary limits of statistical error.

Everything in Disney can be related to a Monty Python skit.

I like this!!!! FUNNY!!!

 

[Maleficent Dragon]

Can Disney admit that FP+ and MDE are a fail?

They won't because Disney is all about creating fantasy, a false positive and facades.

 

[rastuso]

Ah... but you're taking your "baseline" as a time in which you've come to expect 6 FP. Didn't you go to DW before FP-? When the park was built the standard was you wait in line, you take your turn. THAT is the baseline. Then they introduce FP-. You find a way to use this bonus to get yourself more rides at the expense of others. Fine. Disney figures out a way to put a stop to that and make more people happy. You read that as "at your expense" but really it is simply reverting the extra that you are usurping by a loophole in the FP- system. They are not taking away from you. They are fixing a loophole that used to let you take more than others.

The "no FP at all" is the baseline to which we should compare. No the "bonus years" during which you figured out you could get more. That landline, is still in place.

Just because Comcast gives you free HBO for 3 months if you sign up does not mean you can demand HBO forever! It was a bonus, you got it, now it goes away. So too was FP-. Need to not look at it as Disney taking... but rather a loophole that has been fixed to where you can no longer manipulate it to get bonus rides.

Even if Comcast, by some error, gave you HBO for 5 years. You enjoy it all along and keep quiet... one day you find it's shut off. You cannot complain to Comcast and say "Hey put my HBO back on". They fixed a problem wherein they were losing money by giving away product for free. So too is Disney fixing a problem wherein they were giving away excessive rides to ppl who were taking more. They fixed it. You were never "entitled" to it. Buy the currently offered service if you want it, don't if you don't.

That is a crazy baseline to make. Back when there were no FPs, the attendance was a LOT less, we're talking probably 30-40% less. Yet, the number of E tickets was damn near the same. The number of E ticket rides avaiable per visitor was MUCH higher back before FP, so the average wait time for the average visitor was MUCH less.

I'd love to see how you can compare FP+ to those days with any positive spin. Well you will, but that's because you have little grasp on reality.

Jason

 

[rastuso]

According to Disney, yes.

"At Walt Disney World, close to 3K extra visitors a day can be serviced due to the innovation."

I find it hilarious the pro FP+ crowd are holding this quote up like it means something. That comment has absolutely no legal or economic meaning. It's the equivalent of a company saying they are the world's most forward focused company. Or that Twix bar is the most satisfying crispy chocolate bar in the world.

Their comment that it cost them X number of basis points, however, is something that MUST be true, or they could be prosecuted by the SEC.

-Jason

 

[pilferk]

According to Disney, yes.

"At Walt Disney World, close to 3K extra visitors a day can be serviced due to the innovation."

OK..wait a sec.

I'm having a conversation in another thread, and this just came up.

What was the context of the above?

Were they simply talking about theoretical maximum throughput?

Because that's what "can be serviced" would indicate to me, out of context....

I really want to fully understand that statement..could someone clarify?

 

[OldSpiceGuy]

Failure is in the eye of the beholder. I hate to say it but I think they know that people who were really good at maximizing the old fast pass system would be mad. I just think they don't care. The had some actuary crunch the numbers and figured out the impact and decided to make the switch anyway. I do think the folks that are upset about it can make enough noise to influence minor tweaks, but I don't ever see them going back to the old way of doing things.

 

[SleepDoctor]

Failure is in the eye of the beholder. I hate to say it but I think they know that people who were really good at maximizing the old fast pass system would be mad. I just think they don't care. The had some actuary crunch the numbers and figured out the impact and decided to make the switch anyway. I do think the folks that are upset about it can make enough noise to influence minor tweaks, but I don't ever see them going back to the old way of doing things.

Two points to consider:
1. Only about 50% of guests utilized the old FP (legacy system). With the new system, obviously more guest will reach out to use it; resulting in a greater positive experience.
2. Remember when the legacy FP rolled out? You couldn't get a second fast pass until after the expiration time of the first. Of course, that policy subsequently changed. The same will be true with FP+. Enhancements and changes are bound to occur.

 

[pilferk]

Two points to consider:
1. Only about 50% of guests utilized the old FP (legacy system). With the new system, obviously more guest will reach out to use it; resulting in a greater positive experience.
.

My only worry is with this:

FP, when it was first rolled out, got tons of press, tons of "guest education" from CMs in the park (and during your phone calls with CRO), tons of word of mouth around the resorts, from CM's (concierge/check in, etc).

I'd guess, during that time frame, there was a pretty substantial spike in use.

Then, after awhile...that all disappeared. And you got the planners/super-users using the system and a lot of "blank looks" from everyone else.

My worry/concern is that FP+ will follow a similar trajectory. Right now we're getting boxes with flash drives and emails and texts and articles every other day extolling FP+...and CM's are talking about it around the parks. Guest education to the max.

So...in 3 or 4 years...is Disney going to keep up with that push? Or are we going to go right back to where we started with that smaller sample of guests using the system, and everyone else giving "blank stares"?

We'll see....

 

[famy27]

Failure is in the eye of the beholder. I hate to say it but I think they know that people who were really good at maximizing the old fast pass system would be mad. I just think they don't care. The had some actuary crunch the numbers and figured out the impact and decided to make the switch anyway. I do think the folks that are upset about it can make enough noise to influence minor tweaks, but I don't ever see them going back to the old way of doing things.

But it's not just the "super-users" that are mad. I go to WDW every 12-18 months. I always stay deluxe. I buy 8-day PH. I do multiple TS meals OOP and I've done free dining a grand total of once. I take ME and don't rent a car. Every dollar I spend is spent at WDW. I'm also a huge WDW cheerleader, talking up my positive experiences to my friends and family. I would imagine that my family is EXACTLY the type Disney wants to keep happy and keep returning.


In terms of FP use, we used 2-3 in every park other than MK. We probably used 4-5 there on an average day. In September, we may have used less. For spring break, we used a few more. We don't go at RD (although we were always there by 10:00 or 11:00). We have a toddler. So, I was actually very excited about FP+ when it was first introduced. We could sleep in and still ride our favorites. We could do Soarin and TT on arrival day. It was fantastic. But I despise the tiers with a passion. Now, to be able to ride Soarin and TT on the same day with little wait unless I get there at RD. And now, instead of having me as a huge cheerleader, Disney has me as a complainer. I can't imagine that's what they want.

 

[OldSpiceGuy]

But it's not just the "super-users" that are mad. I go to WDW every 12-18 months. I always stay deluxe. I buy 8-day PH. I do multiple TS meals OOP and I've done free dining a grand total of once. I take ME and don't rent a car. Every dollar I spend is spent at WDW. I'm also a huge WDW cheerleader, talking up my positive experiences to my friends and family. I would imagine that my family is EXACTLY the type Disney wants to keep happy and keep returning.


In terms of FP use, we used 2-3 in every park other than MK. We probably used 4-5 there on an average day. In September, we may have used less. For spring break, we used a few more. We don't go at RD (although we were always there by 10:00 or 11:00). We have a toddler. So, I was actually very excited about FP+ when it was first introduced. We could sleep in and still ride our favorites. We could do Soarin and TT on arrival day. It was fantastic. But I despise the tiers with a passion. Now, to be able to ride Soarin and TT on the same day with little wait unless I get there at RD. And now, instead of having me as a huge cheerleader, Disney has me as a complainer. I can't imagine that's what they want.

I hate the tiers at EPCOT too. I can't believe they put the Maelstrom as Tier 1. I don't see anything wrong with the way that you feel about the new system. I was just pointing out that Disney is taking a calculated risk and clearly they have decided that it was worth the risk of losing some customers to make the switch.

 

[mesaboy2]

I hate the tiers at EPCOT too. I can't believe they put the Maelstrom as Tier 1. I don't see anything wrong with the way that you feel about the new system. I was just pointing out that Disney is taking a calculated risk and clearly they have decided that it was worth the risk of losing some customers to make the switch.

Epcot Character Spot is the real crime there.

 

[JimmyV]

Enhancements and changes are bound to occur.

But only if people demand them. Change for the sake of change won't occur. There has to be a catalyst.

 

[Pooksie]

But it's not just the "super-users" that are mad. I go to WDW every 12-18 months. I always stay deluxe. I buy 8-day PH. I do multiple TS meals OOP and I've done free dining a grand total of once. I take ME and don't rent a car. Every dollar I spend is spent at WDW. I'm also a huge WDW cheerleader, talking up my positive experiences to my friends and family. I would imagine that my family is EXACTLY the type Disney wants to keep happy and keep returning.


In terms of FP use, we used 2-3 in every park other than MK. We probably used 4-5 there on an average day. In September, we may have used less. For spring break, we used a few more. We don't go at RD (although we were always there by 10:00 or 11:00). We have a toddler. So, I was actually very excited about FP+ when it was first introduced. We could sleep in and still ride our favorites. We could do Soarin and TT on arrival day. It was fantastic. But I despise the tiers with a passion. Now, to be able to ride Soarin and TT on the same day with little wait unless I get there at RD. And now, instead of having me as a huge cheerleader, Disney has me as a complainer. I can't imagine that's what they want.

But if I'm right, then Disney will start to sell additional FP+ reservations by tier for a fee. Then you can purchase one tier one FP+ reservation for each member of your party that wants to ride two tier one attractions, book it in advance, and get the two rides in the same day that you want and know exactly what time you will be able to ride them. No more heading to the FP machine during a busy time of year and hoping that you don't have to wait three of four hours before you can come back and ride. Or possibly finding during really times there are no more FP- tickets available for that ride for the day.

I think the whole reason for setting a limit of three per day and by instituting tiers is to create incentive for guests to purchase additional FP+ reservations. It's not like Universal where you have to purchase an expensive Express Pass option each day, it would allow you to just purchase one extra FP+ reservation to get that extra tier one ride at considerably less cost than an all ride Express Pass which you really don't need at WDW for most of the tier two rides. (in Epcot in this example). If, and I'm guessing here, a tier one FP+ reservation was five dollars, then a family of four would spend an extra $20.00 for the day at Epcot to get Soarin and Test Track in the same day. Lets say you decide to hit Epcot twice and HS twice during your vacation (not that HS is a two day park, but many people would probably like to ride TSMM and RnRC more than once in a trip), then the total cost would be $80.00 for all four people for those additional FP+ reservations. Not much when considering that A) your vacation is probably costing several thousand dollars, and B) even during the busiest times you will have a guaranteed reservation at a convenient time for you that you know in advance, things that were non existent when FP- was in use...

Time will tell...

 

[JimmyV]

But if I'm right, then Disney will start to sell additional FP+ reservations by tier for a fee. Then you can purchase one tier one FP+ reservation for each member of your party that wants to ride two tier one attractions, book it in advance, and get the two rides in the same day that you want and know exactly what time you will be able to ride them. No more heading to the FP machine during a busy time of year and hoping that you don't have to wait three of four hours before you can come back and ride. Or possibly finding during really times there are no more FP- tickets available for that ride for the day.

I think the whole reason for setting a limit of three per day and by instituting tiers is to create incentive for guests to purchase additional FP+ reservations. It's not like Universal where you have to purchase an expensive Express Pass option each day, it would allow you to just purchase one extra FP+ reservation to get that extra tier one ride at considerably less cost than an all ride Express Pass which you really don't need at WDW for most of the tier two rides. (in Epcot in this example). If, and I'm guessing here, a tier one FP+ reservation was five dollars, then a family of four would spend an extra $20.00 for the day at Epcot to get Soarin and Test Track in the same day. Lets say you decide to hit Epcot twice and HS twice during your vacation (not that HS is a two day park, but many people would probably like to ride TSMM and RnRC more than once in a trip), then the total cost would be $80.00 for all four people for those additional FP+ reservations. Not much when considering that A) your vacation is probably costing several thousand dollars, and B) even during the busiest times you will have a guaranteed reservation at a convenient time for you that you know in advance, things that were non existent when FP- was in use...

Time will tell...

Let's assume for the moment that you are right, (but my personal opinion is that even Disney would find it distasteful to "sell" FP access since they have touted for years the fact that FP is FREE TO ALL GUESTS). After extra FP+s go on sale people will buy them so that their total number of FPs equals what they used to be able to pull for free under FP-. Same number of headliners. Same number of repeat attractions. Same total number of FPs. Assume everything is equal. Then won't this system take us back to exactly where we were before, only for more money? How can the FP+ supporters continue to argue that FP+ is a great new invention if at the end of the day, we get the exact same experience as we had before, only at a higher total cost? If I used to pull one at TSM, two at RnR and two at ToT, and now under the new system, I get a freebie at TSM, a freebie at ToT, and have to buy three more, (two for RnR and one for ToT), then won't I have exactly what I had before at a much higher cost? Can anyone make the argument then that FP+ is a better system? I think that FP+ has to stay "different" or else the change makes no sense.

 

[drstrangelove]

OK, the wording of the post is a little weird, so if anyone has a better wording, let me know and I will change it.

Is there a possibility that Disney will just give up at one point and say that MDE and FP+ are an epic fail? For example, Coke gave up on New Coke, even after pouring $$ into it. McDonalds has given up on many new products even after massive testing and promos.

Do you think Disney will just man up and say that guests are plain unhappy and angry about this system? That commandos, one-timers, off-sites, APs, and locals are all pretty upset? (OK, some loved it, but then again, some people loved New Coke.) That its sucking $$ from other needed projects?

Will Disney backtrack on FP+ and MDE, or will they keep steamrolling the product and telling us that we must love MDE. It's so high-tech and how Walt always wanted to be innovative; that he would love this idea.

I think the VAST majority like it, so no.

 

[JimmyV]

I think the VAST majority like it, so no.

I'm willing to bet that the VAST majority don't see it as a plus or minus one way or the other. If current users were former non-users of FP-, then odds are, had they used FP-, they would have liked that too. So viewing FP+ as an "upgrade" for this category of guests is a bit illusory, because the upgrade is measured against a system that they never used. Sort of like saying that I think Pooh is an upgrade over Toad, but I never rode Toad. So we have to tread lightly when someone who never used FP- now says that FP+ is better. I guess the fact that the system intrigued them enough to try it speaks for itself. But why they never used the old system is a mystery to me.

Then you have the category of people who did use FP-. And they probably break down into two camps. Those who ALWAYS pulled FP- for both Soarin' and TT each and every time they went to Epcot, (and who probably also pulled a FP for TSM, RnR and ToT each and every time that they went to DHS), and those people who pulled far fewer FP-. The first camp likely hates FP+, and this is not a small percentage of guests. (Think about it. If you conducted a poll and the only people who could respond are people who routinely pulled FP- for both Soarin' and TT on the same day, do you really think that sub-group would be giving FP+ a big thumbs up? Now, do you think that this sub-group is a small percentage of Epcot guests?) The second camp probably views FP+ as either neutral or positive. FP- got them where they needed to be, and so does FP+. All in all, I think you have far more "Meh. I used it. It worked OK. But frankly I wasn't at all dissatisfied with FP-" people than you have "I really like the change" people. So is it a failure? No. But not because the vast majority of people like it. But because a large number of people are unmoved one way or the other and it hasn't sent them running for the hills.

 

[FireDancer]

Let's assume for the moment that you are right, (but my personal opinion is that even Disney would find it distasteful to "sell" FP access since they have touted for years the fact that FP is FREE TO ALL GUESTS). After extra FP+s go on sale people will buy them so that their total number of FPs equals what they used to be able to pull for free under FP-. Same number of headliners. Same number of repeat attractions. Same total number of FPs. Assume everything is equal. Then won't this system take us back to exactly where we were before, only for more money? How can the FP+ supporters continue to argue that FP+ is a great new invention if at the end of the day, we get the exact same experience as we had before, only at a higher total cost? If I used to pull one at TSM, two at RnR and two at ToT, and now under the new system, I get a freebie at TSM, a freebie at ToT, and have to buy three more, (two for RnR and one for ToT), then won't I have exactly what I had before at a much higher cost? Can anyone make the argument then that FP+ is a better system? I think that FP+ has to stay "different" or else the change makes no sense.

I think FP+ is designed to monetize what used to be a free commodity. Maybe that will be directly by charging for it or indirectly by providing an incentive to stay on property. That incentive might be that you get more, get them sooner, or some other way.

I don't care one way of the other about FP+ from a guest point of view. I didn't use legacy FP much and don't see myself FP+ much. But from a management point of view I like FP+. If they are going to eventually use it the way I think they will they which is take something they used to give away for free and turn it into a revenue stream.

I applaud Disney for the steps they are taking and realizing they were leaving a lot of money out there on the table with the way FastPasses used to be handled. If someone wants to use the system to maximize the number of attractions they see in a day it should be at a cost, not handed out. FP+ isn't really made to "level the playing field" from a fairness point of view. It is meant to provide a free baseline and then allow for upcharging of guests who want an experience different then that baseline. Want Soarin' and TT? Ok. Pony up the cash to make that happen. Want an extra FP? Ok. Pony up the cash to make that happen. Want FP reservations in multiple parks on the same day? Ok. Pony up the cash to make it happen. At least I think that is the eventual end game and why I think we are still a little ways off from seeing what FP+ will end up being and that is a freemium service.

ETA: Pony up the cash might be literal as in pay for more and it might be an incentive like stay concierge. Every discussion I have about NextGen or FP+ is from the point of view of sitting in the Disney boardroom, not as a guest. That is the much more interesting point of view.