BW-YC Transportation Budget QUESTIONS UPDATE 1/14/04

[crisi]

I doubt the only entity to benefit will be Disney. As I understand it (and I am NOT a lawyer) DVC is legally obligated to be a good steward for us in representations with Disney. Disney cannot charge DVC guests for characters in theme parks because "DVC guests get autographs from them" - and if DVC would let them, they would be a bad steward and we'd have a legal case.

So I don't think Disney will see this as an opportunity to stick it to us. If anything, they now KNOW that DVC members watch and analyze our dues statement, and the last thing they want is a class action suit because they've been billing members inappropriately for services.

 

[DemoBri1]

Originally posted by Ralph&Pam
Brian,

I think you're applying the "size" factor twice here. The fact that BWV is larger certainly makes the total budget larger than the BCV budget. However, this is shared by more units (points), so the cost per point can be lower, the same, or higher. Differences should be a consequence of differences in operating costs, not differences in size, since the dues per point are calculated by taking the cost of providing the service and dividing by the number of points. In fact, it may be possible for the dues per point to be lower for a larger facility because of economies of scale. Here's an example: consider the cost of operating the guard shack at the entrance to the resort. There is a single guard shack at BWI/BWV while there are separate guard shacks at the YC and the BC/BCV. I assume that all of these operate for the same number of hours per year (actually 24/7). The personnel cost to staff the guard shack at the BWI/BWV should be about half the personnel cost to staff the guard shacks at the YC/BC/BCV. Whether this results is higher or lower dues at BWV or BCV depends on how this cost is allocated back to DVC (and in fact, it's folded into the total cost of providing security services so it would be difficult to separate out this particular item).

Ralph

Ralph,

In a sense you're right on this, but size does have to play a part in the whole equation. For example, if I have a ranch house that is one floor and brick exterior at approximately 2400 square feet, it is going to cost me less than my neighbor's 2700 square foot two story with cedar siding to maintain. Also, my taxes are going to be less than his because ranches are taxed less than two stories to begin with, and my home is smaller in size.

So you see...examples can be put forth to support any argument unless that argument is totally without basis.

In going back through this whole thread, I'm still convinced that the best way to go about doing this is to break each individual resort (BWI, BWV, YC, BC, BCV) into a % value, and then each resort should be charged their individual % value of the transportation costs. None of this estimating usage garbage. I'd still like to see some proof that BCV was not charged any transportation costs whatsoever as has been levied earlier in this thread.

Brian

 

[lenshanem]

Call me cynical, but I think the only one that will come out ahead in the end is Disney...

That is my point really. As much as I love WDW, let's face it - They are masters at making a buck or two. I think DVC is now "happy'' as the OP stated cause he basically gave them an excuse to raise up our dues and make more money. I hope I'm wrong, but I bet BCV dues will now get raised and BWV dues will stay the same. An accomplishment I'm not too sure.

As for my pocketbook, sure it will stink to get a raise in dues, but really... It is not like we aren't paying enormous dues to begin with anyway. It is more your approach on this matter in your threads that has bothered me.

as for the north south comment- I see some people still can't get over that war and take a joke...jeez

Why would you even bring this war up as a joke? I didn't find it funny. Weird, though. I'm sure some would have found it insulting that live in the south. Course, this war was back in the 1860s... Time for something new to try as an insult? (Sorry, I like living in the south!)

Calling me a whiner? I think you started whining first cause I posted my displeasure with your tactics. Course, even replying to your comments makes me feel like I'm in grade school. This is ridiculous.

If you were in charge of all of the DVC and hotels around the Crescent Lake--what would you suggest?

Well, I'd probably see this as an opportunity to raise some dues for BCV and NOT lower BWV. Cause, it is important to you that everything is "fair." Unfortunately, we're not in a very fair world, are we?

I think a study should be done to see exactly what transportation uses are and decide from there. True, BCV owners do use the boat to MGM, most probably don't use it for Epcot. Smaller resort, less guests, less use of transportation.
I think WDW needs to kick in more for BW due to the amount of people using your transportation to visit the entertainment complex. Some of the revenue from that should go to transportation as I'm sure this reflects heavily on the amount of people using your boats or buses. Fair, but once again I don't think in reality Disney is gonna get the difference to match up your dues from this, instead they are going to bump ours.

I might not be as number smart as you or as good of a debater, but I do know that Disney likes to make money and I think this is a pathway for them to get more without any extra effort to improve BWV's transportation woes.

 

[PKS44]

I am on record of being very skeptical of Disney and their motives regarding making money...see any of my posts about the real reasons I believe poolhopping at SAB was stopped altogether....so I am no Pollyanna when it comes to Disney...the difference is that Disney has stated that BCV was not assessed any share of the BOAT costs--that is their assertion -it comes from Disney and you are free to call or write to DVCMC if anyone wants proof.

Not sure what "tactics" I ever employed that anyone objected to--I noticed that the per point transportation costs were vastly different between the two resorts. I asked how that could be given that transportation is shared. * A lot of people made suggestions and said there would be a good reason...Then I we have learned from Disney that there is not a "good" explanation. And we have learned how they go about dividing up the costs and it is inconsistent...I would not be the least bit surprised if dues go down at BWV or better yet that BWV gets better service for what we are paying as a result of the scrutiny. Whatever happens there are laws and regulatory commissions that oversee the timeshare industry and if dues are being assessed for the wrong things Disney will suffer for it (There is an investigation of how the upkeep of the ATTIC room at the BWV is maintained on this very subject) So the only thing that anyone could fear is that Disney might end up rebalancing the costs to more accurately reflect who should be paying what...I don't have a problem with things if it is done fairly...my complaint was paid attention to because it had merit...your complaint with me is that I made a meritorious complaint? Or that now your dues will go up when you have been getting away without having to support the boat service at all (Disney's claim-not mine)?

IF a store clerk, even a Disney store clerk, accidently gave me $20 change back that was too much change, I return it...some don't. This is a question of right and wrong...and statements like this is not a fair world when it is made as some excuse to let unfair things stand continues to speak volumes about values, ethics, morals, etc.

I am not up on a pedestal--I am just on plain old level even ground where most people are--- it is just the lowness of some comments that might make me seem higher to some people.

*Here is the exact letter I wrote to DVC for the record:

I am writing for clarification on the Operating Budget for the Boardwalk Villas. Particularly I am confused about the Transportation Budget. For 2004 the Boardwalk Villas Transportation Budget comes to over 19 cents per point, while the Beach Club Villas which as far as I can tell use the exact same transportation are paying less than 8 cents a point. In other words, when I am riding on the boat or bus sitting next to someone from the Beach Club Villas, I am paying almost 2 and a half times as much for the same transportation privileges. If the Boardwalk had more transportation than the Beach Club I would understand the discrepancy, but as far as I can tell all transportation is shared between the two resorts. I understand that the Beach Club is smaller, but this is a PER POINT difference. Given the fixed cost of transportation and the equal access to it, the cost per person at the larger resort (Boardwalk) should be LOWER, not higher. IN fact, since buses go to the Beach Club first, actually the Beach Club guests have already filled the bus before it ever gets to the Boardwalk, giving Boardwalk guests LESS transportation options than those at the Beach Club who pay less as well. I have never been very pleased with the Boardwalk transportation service anyway; to see that I appear to be overpaying for it is especially troubling. I would appreciate a more detailed explanation of the breakdown of the transportation budget at the DVC Epcot resorts.

 

[lenshanem]

IF a store clerk, even a Disney store clerk, accidentally gave me $20 change back that was too much change, I return it...some don't. This is a question of right and wrong...and statements like this is not a fair world when it is made as some excuse to let unfair things stand continues to speak volumes about values, ethics, morals, etc.

I am not up on a pedestal--I am just on plain old level even ground where most people are--- it is just the lowness of some comments that might make me seem higher to some people.

So you are implying that I wouldn't give the $20 back?!? And you are accusing me of low comments?!?
I think YOUR posts "speak volumes" regarding your attitude. Not on a pedestal, are we? Sounds like you were self put there.

I'm done with this. I can't believe I wasted some of my day arguing with you. This has become not about discussing BWV transportation, but about how you can try to personally insult me.

I will wait to see how this all plays out. It will be interesting for sure. I actually hope my predictions are wrong.

As far as YC/BC paying for BCV's boat usage, they probably assumed as was mentioned numerous times that BCV guests probably would walk to Epcot and the resort is small enough it wouldn't make much difference in regard to MGM. YC/BC was there long before BCV was added unlike the BW complex? I'm sorry that BWI isn't paying for your side of the resort for use of the boats. I don't think you can compare this to me not giving change back at a store. When I joined this past summer I was given my dues and I paid them. How can you even correlate these two?!?

Plus, I'll be interested to read if the outcome is 'fair" to you. Something tells me you'll find fault with anything.

I'll leave you to drown in your own attitude as it is not important to me to have the last word. So go ahead...

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

This may have been posted earlier in the thread, but who pays for the non-resort guests that take the boats from the gateway to MGM? Does Epcot or MGM pay anything for these boats to deliver the hoarding masses to their doorstep?

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by PKS44
(There is an investigation of how the upkeep of the ATTIC room at the BWV is maintained on this very subject) . [/B]

I hope BWV isn't being charged for the upkeep. I had to laugh the other day on the Disney Meeting site they showed the room and referred to it as the "Member's Attic".....too bad the "members" were never allowed to use it.

 

[Dean]

Without regard to the rest of this thread, I think it's inappropriate to blame the OP for asking the question even if it means BWV dues stay the same and BCV go up or BWV dues go down and BCV dues go up. It was a valid question and remains so, IMO. There are so many variables that none of us will ever have all the details to make a final decision but to have DVC and Disney to come up with the "right" answer is reasonable.

 

[crisi]

Maybe what Disney needs is to go back to a fee for service model. That way, only people who use transportation/valet services/pool slides/etc would pay for them.

Your dues would go down, but you'd buy a punchcard or have your room key charged everytime you board Disney transportation (bus, boat or monorail), there would be a charge for using the pool, you'd get out your wallet to park your car (and no, not just valet, park it, I don't drive at Disney, and I'm not paying to reblacktop the parking lot so you can drive when I have to pay for the bus). Disney wouldn't clean your room on day 8 or give you new towels on day 4 unless you paid for it (I'd rather wash my own towels, so I don't see why I'm paying for you to get new towels).......

Personally, I'd rather not get nickeled and dimed. Yes, DVC dues are pretty hefty - especially in comparision with some timeshares. But we should have all been aware of what the dues were (and what the dues can do as far as increasing) when we made our purchase decision. I'm sorry if having to throw more money at dues a year (what, on 150 points, if this were to increase dues $.10, we'd be talking about $15) is a hardship for some people - but if dues increases are a hardship for you, what in the world are you doing owning DVC? And if you own so many points that we are talking hundreds of dollars and that is why this is a hardship - why in the world do you own so many points if you can't afford them. And no, I don't use every amenity I pay for with my dues - but I do make use of others, and my needs have and will continue to change over time. I'd rather not be so shortsighted as to assume that because my kids are too little to use the poolslide now, that they won't use it for hours and hours in a few years....and that after they outgrow it we may bring guests who make use of it. We regularly walked from BWVs to Epcot, but - with small children in tow, we sometimes took the boat back. In a few years, I can't see us ever using the boat - unless we take more grandparents again. I saw plenty of BC guests get on and off the boat going to and from Epcot - often apparently for the same reasons I was on the boat - it was late and they had party members who needed a few minutes of sitting (small children and seniors) and/or airconditioning. Not everyone brings a stroller to handle the walk with little kids. I used to regularly vacation in a hotel/timeshare where the dues are cheaper - but there is no landscaping to speak of. The rooms are well kept up, but the public areas leave something to be desired. And there was no bus available to Disney, no need for Disney like security, no valet parking, no bell services, a pool without a theme or a lifeguard.

Ever since swimming at SAB, I've been shocked at how Disney manages to keep BCV dues so low. That pool has to be a huge expense. It has many more lifeguards than the other Disney pools. The sandbar has to be maintained - and the extensive landscaping. They need to be regularly replacing tubes for the lazy river.

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by crisi
Personally, I'd rather not get nickeled and dimed.

I agree 100%. I don't want to see dramatic increases in dues but I will pay what is necessary to maintain the Disney level of service and accomodations.

Whatever the outcome of this investigation I don't think we should shoot the messenger. If there is a glaring error in the method used to calculate the transportation costs, it would have been found eventually.

 

[joepoe]

PKS44, thanks for your analysis. As a finance guy myself, I appreciate how hard it is to come up with fair and equitable allocations. I am happy that Disney is taking another look at what seems to be an incorrect allocation. As a BWV owner, I am happy someone found the error. If I were a BCV owner, I would not be happy that Disney has made incorrect calculations all along, but I would be willing to pay my fair share.

Please do not be deterred by those who prefer that anecdotal information and their own personal beliefs get in the way of a scientific approach.

 

[Bella2000]

Originally posted by crisi
Ever since swimming at SAB, I've been shocked at how Disney manages to keep BCV dues so low. That pool has to be a huge expense. It has many more lifeguards than the other Disney pools. The sandbar has to be maintained - and the extensive landscaping. They need to be regularly replacing tubes for the lazy river.

SAB existed previously and is operated under YC/BC I believe so I'd imagine that is why dues are on the higher end at BCV for using it but it's not a "BCV pool" but a perk for BCV only. Which means I suppose they could theoretically take away the privilege one day - which I trust (cause I asked) they would never do (talk about causing a huge beef) but it is a big reason why I bought at BCV as well as location location location.

I've been following this thread and I admit I did immediately think "oh great, thanks now what are my dues going to go up?!"
It is frustrating, but I do think that things should be looked at now that the question has been raised. OP saw something related to BWV and he investigated - I don't think it's a bad thing. He asked for an explaination - also not a bad thing. I am not going to post on what has transpired since then but suffice it to say I do hope the resolution isn't seriously detrimental to anyone's interests. I think things should be equitable but who determines equity?

I personally think the baseline response "BCV hasn't been paying" that OP received from Disney is only part of the big equation - Disney corporate would squeeze money from a dry stick and I find it hard to believe that no one caught that one OR maybe it's one of those Peter takes from Paul and some where else there is compensation - but none of us has all of the paper work or details in this whole process. Will they say well a decision was made to have YC/BC pick up DVC transport intentionally or Swan/Dolphin has a bigger piece and that's how we handled it or when BCV opened we didn't catch it initially saw it in subsequent years thought it was nominal so we didn't charge it but now we have to fix it because you found it?- I do not know that they would but I do know that if my dues go up I'll be going line for line on my 300 points which based on OP's original post I really should have been monitoring from the get go. Shame on me. It is perfectly reasonable to ask questions. I'll just wait until I have more facts. Perhaps a BCV owner should contact the finance department themselves (since the question has already been raised) to hear what they are told and ask the questions that have been raised here specific to BCV. Or perhaps you should just call your guide - they should also be aware of this - we know they read these boards.

 

[Mary Ellen]

Thank You
for looking into this.

 

[WDWguru]

I'm amazed, and pleased, that Disney has responded so quickly to this. I also hope that it causes changes in the bus routing for BWV, even though we typically rent a car.

One thing I found curious is that while lots of people have mentioned the distance to the dock from BCV being greater than the distance to Epcot, nobody has pointed out the correlation on the BWV side. If you're staying at BWV, especially in one of those "long walk" rooms toward the end, you're closer to the MGM entrance than you are to the BWV boat dock. Seems to me that it evens it out.

 

[Sammie]

Originally posted by PKS44
Actually DVC is very much looking into seeing how much DVC vs WDW is being charged to transport people to the BW--and they are doing it because this issue was brought up...that is what has been accomplished...they are actually looking at the fairest way to share the costs...it has nothing to do with my ego or your pocketbook..and the fact that you try to make it so says a lot.

as for the north south comment- I see some people still can't get over that war and take a joke...jeez
---the fact is a mistake was found--a fair remedy is being looked into and has been reported here and a few people are now whining about how it ends up raising their dues ignoring the fairness issue --just how it affects them....and then this ridiculous idea of elimination of boat routes that cant really be eliminated....give me a break.

....so I ask you - shan- since you are one of the most vocal--what do you think would be best?-- What your posts indicate is that you think things should have been left as they were--that is to say- so that BCV owners were not required to pay their fair share of the costs of transportation...if I am misunderstanding the gist of your posts please clarify for us. If you were in charge of all of the DVC and hotels around the Crescent Lake--what would you suggest?

Actually I don't have a problem with your investigation into the cost of transportation.

However in reference to your comment "that some people still can't get over that war", you started that with your previous comments in the first thread. Others including myself commented only because you brought it up first. So it would appear maybe your comment fits to close to home.

Personally I don't find any war humorous regardless of when it was fought. I do have a problem with people who live in the North, vacation in the South, and have a tendacy to make jokes about anything Southern. In the South we consider that bad manners.

 

[BWVDee]

North/South/Civil War etc are really not on topic with the OP, however since it has been brought up several times on this thread by others, I have to add my $0.02.
Yes, geographically Florida is located about as south on the continent of North America as you are going to get however Florida is far from being part of the true "old South". There are probably more transplants living in Florida from the North then there is in any other state in the US.
I really do not think Paul meant anything negative by his N/S comment.
I applaud Paul for excellent investigative work and showing great initiative. If nothing more comes from all of this then Disney being more on the ball regarding the division/breakdown of resort charges, then something benefical has been accomplished for all DVC members regardless where your home resort is!

 

[kathleena]

Crisi, Pam I'm with you.

As a BWV and BCV owner, I'm interested in issues like this and I'm glad that members speak up - and if they mean dues go up so be it and if dues go down yahoo. It can go either way and this is just a circumstance if the dues being adjusted up.

I bought to enjoy, I knew the costs, and whether I use everything or not, matters not.

And to the OP - keep asking questions, someday you might find the one that makes costs go the other way and you'll be a hero.