BW-YC Transportation Budget QUESTIONS UPDATE 1/14/04

[Terry S]

Crissup... What I was suggesting was elimating the stop at BC/YC for Epcot, not the boat.

PamOKW, the differences with the kids clubs is that they are pay as you go.

I understand that there are other people who never even use any of the transportation at all because they drive thier own car and they still have to pay.

That boat to Epcot from BCV has just always been a sore spot for me since it is quicker to walk and to now find out that we weren't being charged but now we will be, just annoys me. And, I don't think it sounds like it is going to be a benefit for BWV members, just a detriment for BCV members. I guess this somehow makes some of the BWV members happy.

 

[BWVDee]

The boat stops for ALL 3 resorts YC/BC/BCV, so even though guests from BCV might not care about a boat to Epcot, guests from YC/BC might feel very differently. I have seen plenty of guests get on the boat to Epcot from the YC/BC/BCV dock. The service is provided for the guests, if you choose not to use it fine but it is still provided and has to be paid for. It is only fair that all the Epcot resorts that offer boat and bus service to their guests share equally in the cost.
Many people never swim at the main pools so a lifeguard is of no interest to them, or never use valet parking, room service etc., you could really rationalize not paying for almost every amenity that the resorts offer, if you use that line of thinking.
BTW, we stay at BWV the majority of our trips and we very rarely take the boat to Epcot from BWV. Many people walk to Epcot from BWV also.

 

[erikthewise]

Not only does S/D have half the rooms in the Crescent Lake area, but their guests are more likely to use the boats: more likely when going to Epcot because it is a longer walk, more likely when going to MGM because it is more practical with no stops (from BCV I either walk or drive). I'm not saying that "use frequency" should be factored in, just pointing out how sweet a deal S/D are getting.

If the YC stop were to be dropped (probably not a good idea), would Disney feel obligated to run buses from YC/BC to Epcot? They do seem to have a policy of providing at least one non-walking form of transportation from each resort to each park. Actually I think I'd prefer the bus! I've been tempted to drive from BCV to Epcot main entrance, though I've never actually done it. Last month they made us wait until 9:00 before letting us through the turnstiles at the International Gate, giving the people at the main entrance an effective 5-minute head start for Mission:Space and Test Track.

 

[DebbieB]

The boat that stops at YC/BC to go to Epcot comes from MGM. So they can't eliminate that stop to Epcot unless they eliminate service from MGM. Each boat makes a full circle around the stops: Epcot- BW- YC/BC-S/D-MGM-S/D-YC/BC-BW-Epcot.

There's no way they are going to eliminate boat stops, people who have problems walking depend on them. When my mom and I stay at BWV in December, we frequently use the boats, they are usually crowded. If I was by myself, I probably would walk but she isn't well and every step saved helps especially at the end of the night.

I don't see anything wrong with asking them to review how they charge and see if it is equitable. Who knows, we might all end up paying less.

 

[joepoe]

Originally posted by lenshanem
I have to agree with others on here that BCV guests probably don't use the boat system anywhere near as often as BWV guests.

I disagree with your theory.

We never use the boat to go from BWV to Epcot. The one time we did, it took forever. The boat always stops at BC/YC before proceeding to Epcot. And people get on there and get off at Epcot. Walking to Epcot from BWV makes every bit as much sense as walking from BCV, even though it is further, it is a pleasant little walk.

 

[DemoBri1]

Originally posted by DebbieB
BCV-$4.17
VWL-$4.22
BWV-$4.25

BWV has always had higher dues than VWL and BCV but I've noticed the gap is narrowing. When VWL opened in 2000, VWL was $3.62 vs $3.94 BWV. When BCV opened in 2002, BCV was $3.77 vs $3.92 BWV.

I have another fly to throw into the ointment here. I believe, if I remember correctly, that Paul stated any increase in BCV dues would be about $.03/pt. According to what Debbie posted above, this would bring BCV dues up to $4.20/pt, whereas BWV sits at $4.25/pt.

This seems to me to be a disproportionate difference favoring BWV. No matter how you divide up the resorts, either by rooms or units, BWV is substantially larger that BCV. How is it that BWV owners are only going to be paying $.05/pt (about 1.2%) more than BCV owners when their resort is about 85% larger than BCV??

There is more to this whole dues picture than just the Transportation costs. In my mind we at BCV are getting a raw deal when it comes to overall dues payments.

Brian

 

[Jimbo]

DemoBri1 - If BWV is 85% larger than BCV, it will have sold 85% more points. Therefore, even if the dues per point were the same, BWV owners would contribute 85% more than BCV owners.

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by Terry S
the differences with the kids clubs is that they are pay as you go.

No, not totally. There is a budget item for "Member Activities" that subsidizes these programs. But, I think you got the point that we all pay for things that we don't always use. Some members never have a car so they don't use valet -- some always have a car and never use the buses.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out. I would suggest BWV and BCV members keep the breakout of their dues this year and compare them when 2005 comes out.

 

[DemoBri1]

Jimbo---I am not disputing this fact. I don't know how many total pts were sold at BWV compared to BCV. I would assume it should've been the same proportion more as the number of rooms that BWV has over BCV.

What I was merely trying to point out is that if you wanted to be somewhat fair, it seems to me that BWV dues per pt should be much higher compared to BCV dues. The resort is bigger, which means more upkeep and maintenance. I mean doesn't it cost less to maintain a smaller residence than a larger one? Utilities should be lower, property tax should be lower, staff costs should be lower??

I know everything is based on the number of points bought at the resort and that is what is the confusing point here. It's a lot more gray than black and white.

Brian

 

[jaysue]

I am fairly sure that the net outcome of all this volume will be that BWV owners will not get any decrease and BCV owners will pay more

 

[Ralph&Pam]

Originally posted by DemoBri1
Jimbo---I am not disputing this fact. I don't know how many total pts were sold at BWV compared to BCV. I would assume it should've been the same proportion more as the number of rooms that BWV has over BCV.

What I was merely trying to point out is that if you wanted to be somewhat fair, it seems to me that BWV dues per pt should be much higher compared to BCV dues. The resort is bigger, which means more upkeep and maintenance. I mean doesn't it cost less to maintain a smaller residence than a larger one? Utilities should be lower, property tax should be lower, staff costs should be lower??

I know everything is based on the number of points bought at the resort and that is what is the confusing point here. It's a lot more gray than black and white.

Brian

Brian,

I think you're applying the "size" factor twice here. The fact that BWV is larger certainly makes the total budget larger than the BCV budget. However, this is shared by more units (points), so the cost per point can be lower, the same, or higher. Differences should be a consequence of differences in operating costs, not differences in size, since the dues per point are calculated by taking the cost of providing the service and dividing by the number of points. In fact, it may be possible for the dues per point to be lower for a larger facility because of economies of scale. Here's an example: consider the cost of operating the guard shack at the entrance to the resort. There is a single guard shack at BWI/BWV while there are separate guard shacks at the YC and the BC/BCV. I assume that all of these operate for the same number of hours per year (actually 24/7). The personnel cost to staff the guard shack at the BWI/BWV should be about half the personnel cost to staff the guard shacks at the YC/BC/BCV. Whether this results is higher or lower dues at BWV or BCV depends on how this cost is allocated back to DVC (and in fact, it's folded into the total cost of providing security services so it would be difficult to separate out this particular item).

Ralph

 

[Terry S]

Hey Ralph, maybe you or Paul can bring that up to DVC and maybe they could raise our dues at BCV even more.

 

[PKS44]

For those who seem so angry- like Terry S or Shan- I would ask that you take a step back, maybe think for a second and ask if there is something unfair being asked or not. The ridiculous idea that the boats are not used because BCV guests walk to Epcot is so unbelievably shortsighted and incomplete as a thought that it reveals a total absence of any reason at all...for those who walk to Epcot I am guessing you forget that you take the boat to and From MGM--if it did not stop on its way to Epcot you would not be able to take it from MGM. Enough people are going to use the boats for MGM transport to make them a shared expense.

The question is are you for fairness or only interested in doing whatever works out to your benefit and the heck with everyone else...???
As Ralph has pointed out- the costs of BWV are spread out over more people thus making per point costs less...BWV also does not have a huge fancy SAB to support...which has got to be more expensive than any other pool on property...so comparing dues in this way is ridiculous...but when transportation is essentially identical and shared that is a place to look at the differences and ask questions...I did not ask why Housekeeping or Management was different...I asked about a SHARED service being paid for by both and not being done so fairly...the anger and resentment displayed here reveals more about people's petty self-interests than anything about my motivation in asking about this in the first place.

 

[erikthewise]

PKS44, I think the number one rule here is that when you make a post, you don't own the thread. Not everyone who posted here was looking for the calm, rational analysis of transportation costs that you originally proposed. Some want to grouse about their pet peeves, some just want to have fun, and it's all OK. All is fair in a post (except being rude to other posters, etc).

IMO the rational thing is for every onsite guest to pay the same amount for transportation, as transportation is shared by all the guests. That is one way of being fair, and the various intricate transportation inequities at each resort are really irrelevant. Negotiations are not required. Each resort should be charged on a per room or per capita basis. Other guests pay through their room rates, we pay through maintenance, but the transportation portion of the maintenance rate should be the same at each DVC resort.

As various ticket and passholders get transportation access even when staying offsite, the parks should also contribute to transportation expense; 1/2 and 1/2 seems reasonable.

 

[PKS44]

Think just about the buses this way-

3 families hire a bus to take them to a picnic. The Smith family, the Young family and the Bowman family.

The bus stops to pick up the Smith family which has 25 people, then picks up 15 at the Young house and then goes to pick up 10 from the Bowmans...How should the cost of the bus be paid? 1/3 by each family? What if they have to get a cab for 5 of the Bowmans because the bus is full once the first 45 people get on? Should the Bowman's pay the full cab fare and 1/3 of the bus chartering fee, too?

From what I have learned from my questions to DVC the above is quite possibly how they are currently dividing up the costs of bus transportation..and anybody who thinks that is fair has an odd idea of fairness as far as I can tell.

I have no regrets about bringing this up- and I hope what comes out of it is a more fair and equitable and efficient transportation service for ALL.

 

[Terry S]

Wow PKS44! You take a step back! Most of what I have said is in jest and for you to imply that what I have said reveals a total absense of any reason at all is a bit harsh and basically says I am stupid and I really don't appreciate it! (Did you really think when I asked you to pay my dues, that I was serious, thus implying that I was angry?) If you would read what I said, I said that the walk is shorter to Epcot than it is to the Boat Dock for BCV's and it wouldn't bother me if the Epcot Boat Stop be elimated all together at the BC/YC dock. Notice, I said the Epcot Stop, not the MGM stop. I also know that they would never eliminate the stop since YC guests use it and its not like I am making this suggestion to DVC, I just said, it wouldn't bother me if they did. Also, notice that I never once said "Since I don't use the boat I don't think I should pay for it". And I don't feel this way!

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by Terry S
If you would read what I said, I said that the walk is shorter to Epcot than it is to the Boat Dock for BCV's and it wouldn't bother me if the Epcot Boat Stop be elimated all together at the BC/YC dock. Notice, I said the Epcot Stop, not the MGM stop.

This shows you are not thinking...not saying you are stupid -just that you are not thinking and what you wrote above proves it because it makes no sense.

How do you get back to the BCV from MGM if that stop were eliminated? Don't you realize that the "Epcot stop" (as you call it) is just the same boat that just dropped people off from MGM to the YC/BC/BCV? It is all the same. It is the MGM stop--it is just the return stop.

 

[lenshanem]

PKS44, I think you are the one that needs to take a step back off that high pedestal you have put yourself up on and look at how it appears to us. Let's face it, BCV dues will now probably go up and your dues will still end up the same. Nothing accomplished but raising your ego a little higher. Yes, most of it is said in jest, let's think about your strange comments on your earlier thread referring to yourself as a Yankee being upset you are on the south side?!? Then you go on to make another odd remark. Hello?!? Like where did that come from?!? So no need to feel self righteous.
I wish I had time all day to sit around analyzing BWV dues to find something I could try and stick you for by constantly nagging DVC. Geez.... Course, I didn't realize this was a war between BCV / BWV owners.
Still no takers on my thoughts regarding WDW adding some to the pot for transportation to BW considering the amount of people using transportation to enjoy the entertainment complex? I'm sure they make a few pennies off that. Does anyone even question this aspect?

 

[PKS44]

Actually DVC is very much looking into seeing how much DVC vs WDW is being charged to transport people to the BW--and they are doing it because this issue was brought up...that is what has been accomplished...they are actually looking at the fairest way to share the costs...it has nothing to do with my ego or your pocketbook..and the fact that you try to make it so says a lot.

as for the north south comment- I see some people still can't get over that war and take a joke...jeez
---the fact is a mistake was found--a fair remedy is being looked into and has been reported here and a few people are now whining about how it ends up raising their dues ignoring the fairness issue --just how it affects them....and then this ridiculous idea of elimination of boat routes that cant really be eliminated....give me a break.

....so I ask you - shan- since you are one of the most vocal--what do you think would be best?-- What your posts indicate is that you think things should have been left as they were--that is to say- so that BCV owners were not required to pay their fair share of the costs of transportation...if I am misunderstanding the gist of your posts please clarify for us. If you were in charge of all of the DVC and hotels around the Crescent Lake--what would you suggest?

 

[HookdonWDW]

This thread seems to have moved from an attack on how the Transportation Expenses are divvied up to an attack on the intelligence of those who disagree with the OP. Call me cynical, but I think the only one that will come out ahead in the end is Disney...