Buying a camper?

[lukenick1]

Been interested in getting a travel trailer camper (no pop up). Need something light weight that my 2004 Toyota Sienna can tow. I've had my eyes on Craigslist. Can someone tell me what questions to ask and what to look for so I do not end up with a money pit?? Don't know a thing about campers, never had one.
Thanks so much!

 

[bama_ed]

Been interested in getting a travel trailer camper (no pop up). Need something light weight that my 2004 Toyota Sienna can tow. I've had my eyes on Craigslist. Can someone tell me what questions to ask and what to look for so I do not end up with a money pit?? Don't know a thing about campers, never had one.
Thanks so much!

Hi lukenick!

It may sound strange but you have to start from the back and work towards the front (so to speak). Before we talk trailers, let's talk cars.

First, please look at your owners manual and give us the tow limits of the vehicle. There's usually a chart that says with 2 people it can tow 3500 pounds (if properly equipped with tranny cooler, etc) or with 4 people 3000#, etc. If not properly equipped with a tow package, the number is lower.

The Sienna is a minivan and they are generally limited to around 3500# tops. I have a popup that I towed with a Chrysler Town & Country minivan that had the tranny cooler and just about wore it out towing the popup (it has a slide out which adds weight). Then I upgraded to a truck (Suburban) which has been wonderful.

The point is we've been down this road before with posters and your vehicle is the limiting factor (next to your bank account of course). People try to rationalize too heavy a trailer and it's just not safe for you and any loved ones travelling with you.

The issue is not being able to tow a trailer; the issue is being able to safely stop and control a trailer in traffic.

So do this - look at the max towing limit of your vehicle: example = 3500#. Use 80% as the max safe towing limit of this which yields 2800#. Trailers have several numbers/weights associated with them. Compare the 2800# to the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the trailer. This is the max weight the trailer can handle (empty weight plus cargo/luggage). If the GVWR is greater than 2800#, it's not safe.

Others may have a different safety percentage other than 80%. But the principle is the same. You'll probably find that most travel trailers have a GVWR greater than a minivan tow capacity. Minivans are good for popups, Aliners, etc. Don't let a trailer salesman lie to you. Your insurance company probably won't support you if your trailer is overweight for your vehicle should something happen. <they know how to do the math>

A. Tell us the tow numbers in your minivan owners manual. (do you have a tow pkg/transmission cooler?)

B. Tell us how many people will be in the van going camping.

C. Tell us what type of travel trailers you're looking at (hopefully small and light. Find their GVWR).

We want you to enjoy camping and arrive alive.

Bama Ed

PS - we have lots of smart campers and drivers and haulers who I'm sure have their own opinions (even if they contradict me which is fine - if I'm wrong then I'm wrong; I learn something new everyday). I hope they weigh in to help you too.

 

[lukenick1]

Hi lukenick!

It may sound strange but you have to start from the back and work towards the front (so to speak). Before we talk trailers, let's talk cars.

First, please look at your owners manual and give us the tow limits of the vehicle. There's usually a chart that says with 2 people it can tow 3500 pounds (if properly equipped with tranny cooler, etc) or with 4 people 3000#, etc. If not properly equipped with a tow package, the number is lower.

The Sienna is a minivan and they are generally limited to around 3500# tops. I have a popup that I towed with a Chrysler Town & Country minivan that had the tranny cooler and just about wore it out towing the popup (it has a slide out which adds weight). Then I upgraded to a truck (Suburban) which has been wonderful.

The point is we've been down this road before with posters and your vehicle is the limiting factor (next to your bank account of course). People try to rationalize too heavy a trailer and it's just not safe for you and any loved ones travelling with you.

The issue is not being able to tow a trailer; the issue is being able to safely stop and control a trailer in traffic.

So do this - look at the max towing limit of your vehicle: example = 3500#. Use 80% as the max safe towing limit of this which yields 2800#. Trailers have several numbers/weights associated with them. Compare the 2800# to the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the trailer. This is the max weight the trailer can handle (empty weight plus cargo/luggage). If the GVWR is greater than 2800#, it's not safe.

Others may have a different safety percentage other than 80%. But the principle is the same. You'll probably find that most travel trailers have a GVWR greater than a minivan tow capacity. Minivans are good for popups, Aliners, etc. Don't let a trailer salesman lie to you. Your insurance company probably won't support you if your trailer is overweight for your vehicle should something happen. <they know how to do the math>

A. Tell us the tow numbers in your minivan owners manual. (do you have a tow pkg/transmission cooler?)

B. Tell us how many people will be in the van going camping.

C. Tell us what type of travel trailers you're looking at (hopefully small and light. Find their GVWR).

We want you to enjoy camping and arrive alive.

Bama Ed

PS - we have lots of smart campers and drivers and haulers who I'm sure have their own opinions (even if they contradict me which is fine - if I'm wrong then I'm wrong; I learn something new everyday). I hope they weigh in to help you too.

Ugh.....sounds like a minivan isn't the best vehicle to be campers with. Unless we are pop up campers.....Bummer! Never knew you would have to take into consideration the bodies in the car as weight capacity. Good to know!

 

[lukenick1]

My Mom has a Ford Explorer that we may be able to use to tow it. Does anyone know the tow capacity of those? I believe its the Eddie Bauer edition.

 

[lukenick1]

Hi lukenick!

It may sound strange but you have to start from the back and work towards the front (so to speak). Before we talk trailers, let's talk cars.

First, please look at your owners manual and give us the tow limits of the vehicle. There's usually a chart that says with 2 people it can tow 3500 pounds (if properly equipped with tranny cooler, etc) or with 4 people 3000#, etc. If not properly equipped with a tow package, the number is lower.

The Sienna is a minivan and they are generally limited to around 3500# tops. I have a popup that I towed with a Chrysler Town & Country minivan that had the tranny cooler and just about wore it out towing the popup (it has a slide out which adds weight). Then I upgraded to a truck (Suburban) which has been wonderful.

The point is we've been down this road before with posters and your vehicle is the limiting factor (next to your bank account of course). People try to rationalize too heavy a trailer and it's just not safe for you and any loved ones travelling with you.

The issue is not being able to tow a trailer; the issue is being able to safely stop and control a trailer in traffic.

So do this - look at the max towing limit of your vehicle: example = 3500#. Use 80% as the max safe towing limit of this which yields 2800#. Trailers have several numbers/weights associated with them. Compare the 2800# to the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the trailer. This is the max weight the trailer can handle (empty weight plus cargo/luggage). If the GVWR is greater than 2800#, it's not safe.

Others may have a different safety percentage other than 80%. But the principle is the same. You'll probably find that most travel trailers have a GVWR greater than a minivan tow capacity. Minivans are good for popups, Aliners, etc. Don't let a trailer salesman lie to you. Your insurance company probably won't support you if your trailer is overweight for your vehicle should something happen. <they know how to do the math>

A. Tell us the tow numbers in your minivan owners manual. (do you have a tow pkg/transmission cooler?)

B. Tell us how many people will be in the van going camping.

C. Tell us what type of travel trailers you're looking at (hopefully small and light. Find their GVWR).

We want you to enjoy camping and arrive alive.

Bama Ed

PS - we have lots of smart campers and drivers and haulers who I'm sure have their own opinions (even if they contradict me which is fine - if I'm wrong then I'm wrong; I learn something new everyday). I hope they weigh in to help you too.

I checked my van and the gross towing weight is 3500#. I do have a towing package on it. There will be 2 adults and 4 kids in the vehicle max. I was looking at the Jay Feather Light, or a Cub travel trailer. I want a hard camper, with a kitchen and bathroom in it. Don't like pop -ups.

 

[PixieCamper]

Luke, you sound like I used to LOL!

Couldn't tow anything but a pop up with our van, sold it and bought a camper van because I was dead set against a pop up. Ended up buying an old cheapie used popup just to tow our luggage and have a screen room/awning type deal until we bought a travel trailer. We fell in love with that stupid popup! renovated it, ended up rebuilding it and STILL won't get rid of it even though we have the hybrid! Then again, it does have a bathroom.

At any rate, you can still have a hard side camper with a tow limit of 3000-3500,

Trail manor is a bit pricey but are nice
http://www.trailmanor.com/WebDocs/folding-line/2417.html

Same concept was used by Hi-Lo campers and are cheaper but not made anymore, you would have to search for used ones on line.

Here are some fiberglass "egg" types:

Scamp http://www.scamptrailers.com/Showroom/16Trailers/16FloorPlans.aspx

Casita http://www.casitatraveltrailers.com/showroom.html

Out of business but you can find used ones online

Burro

https://www.google.com/search?q=bur...oCw&biw=1366&bih=601&sei=qdmiUfA8iJz1BLnrgIAB

Trillium
Can find old ones online but it looks like they are coming back anyway
http://trilliumrv.wordpress.com/floor-plans/

Old uhaul ones can also be found on line

If you would consider a popup type camper if it were hard walled you can try:

http://www.aliner.com/campers

Apaches aren't made anymore and are kind of collectable- and the DEVIL to find but great if you can find one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apache-Rama...915?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac4d3544b

The Fleetwood Tacoma was only made for a year or so I think but looked really nice
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/new_vehicle_compare.asp?vehicle1=98696&vehicle2=98696

Anyway, I'm sure you'll find something just right for ya'll!

 

[WDW1979]

I checked my van and the gross towing weight is 3500#. I do have a towing package on it. There will be 2 adults and 4 kids in the vehicle max. I was looking at the Jay Feather Light, or a Cub travel trailer. I want a hard camper, with a kitchen and bathroom in it. Don't like pop -ups.

Hi lukenick1,

My vehicle has similar constraints as yours, and I have been examining the options available. One company I found is Livin Lite, which makes hard-sided tavel trailers using aluminum and composites (no wood and no carbon steel except for maybe the wheel axel). A link to the travel trailer page on their web site is:

http://www.livinlite.com/camplite-overview.php

They sell a 16 foot model, a version of which that includes a tip-out bunk that will sleep six, that has a dry weight of 2,750 pounds. They have a full bathroom with toilet & separate shower. They are a little on the expensive side, though.

There is also a 13 foot model that might sleep six if you put on person on the floor on a single-sized air mattress, and it has a dry weight of 2,250 pounds.

While the Camplite travel trailers are a little on the expensive side, the company also sells pop-ups (very light due to aluminum) that are a good price, which you can check out at:

http://www.livinlite.com/qs-tentcampers.php

 

[bama_ed]

My Mom has a Ford Explorer that we may be able to use to tow it. Does anyone know the tow capacity of those? I believe its the Eddie Bauer edition.

You didn't specify what year but I googled 2008 (just a guess on my part) on the Explorer and it came back with about 7,000# if properly equipped.

So again, like with your van, you need to establish for certain how the Explorer is equipped. Your mom can even take it to a Ford dealer and have them run the VIN to tell you what it left the factory with if she's not the original owner.

Again the owner's manual will specify specs with and without a tow package. But the fact that the with specs are higher is a good sign. You should probably pursue the Explorer info and look how that matches up against your trailer candidates.

I have a Jayco popup and have dreamed of moving up to a Jayco hybrid (I'm very happy with the brand). Most of their current Feather lightweights including the hybrids start at 3500# for the smaller ones. Don't know what year you are looking at. But if the Explorer can handle it these are a possibility.

Bama Ed

PS - however now I am enamored with the Aliner Expedition model as DW and I look forward to the empty nest days not long off.....

 

[ctpooh]

No worries.. We have a 2007 toyota Sienna with the towing package. We tow a 19bh KZ sportsman classic travel trailer with it just fine. The trailer weighs only 2650lbs. We absolutely love it and so do the kids. So, you can find something in your weight limit that the van can tow safely and it is affordable!

 

[lukenick1]

No worries.. We have a 2007 toyota Sienna with the towing package. We tow a 19bh KZ sportsman classic travel trailer with it just fine. The trailer weighs only 2650lbs. We absolutely love it and so do the kids. So, you can find something in your weight limit that the van can tow safely and it is affordable!

Funny....that is the exact one I have been eyeing!!!! It's not very expensive too

 

[Disney Bunny]

I checked my van and the gross towing weight is 3500#. I do have a towing package on it. There will be 2 adults and 4 kids in the vehicle max. I was looking at the Jay Feather Light, or a Cub travel trailer. I want a hard camper, with a kitchen and bathroom in it. Don't like pop -ups.

I just looked at the specs of your tow vehicle here: http://www.cars.com/toyota/sienna/2004/specifications/

These specs say that you can tow up to 3500 pounds ONLY if there is only one person (driver) in the van that weighs no more than 150 pounds and there is NO other cargo in the Toyota. Since you will have a total of 6 people in the Toyota, you will need to reduce that 3500 pounds by the weight of the 5 additional people and anything else you will carry in the van. That basically means you will need to reduce the carrying capacity of what you can put in the camper. The camper you are looking at can carry 877 pounds of cargo. I'm guessing that you would have to reduce the poundage by about 300 to 350 pounds. You will be surprised at how much you will need to pack in your camper for a family of 6......clothing, food, lanterns, dishes, silverware, pots and pans, water hose, sewer hose, misc housekeeping items, possibly a tv, toys, games, etc.......It can really start to add up. Then you need to figure out tow hitch weight, sway bars, etc. And as Bama Ed stated, you need to leave some wiggle room and not max out the towing capacity of your tow vehicle. It's about safety.....not whether or not it will stress out the transmission/engine of the tow vehicle. Take it from someone who totaled a Ford F150 and 27 foot travel trailer.....NOT a fun experience.

 

[2goofycampers]

I have a similar vehicle with the same tow rating. I have towed our boat and trailer total of 2200 lbs. I definitely wouldn't want to trailer more weight.

 

[lukenick1]

How about either one of these??? Can I safely tow??

http://www.kz-rv.com/sportsmen-classic/16RBT.html

http://www.kz-rv.com/sportsmen-classic/16BHT.html

 

[2goofycampers]

Your total towing weight should be 75 to 80 % of your rating. That leaves you 2625 for everything. People, stuff and camper. And believe me a dealer will sell you a camper that your vehicle can't handle. We ruined the rear end in a truck to the tune of $2000.00. Yes it pulled it, but apparently it didn't like pulling it, especially uphill.

 

[2goofycampers]

I finally found this

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml

 

[Disney Bunny]

How about either one of these??? Can I safely tow??

http://www.kz-rv.com/sportsmen-classic/16RBT.html

http://www.kz-rv.com/sportsmen-classic/16BHT.html

I wouldn't. Again....it has to do with the number of people you have camping. Even if your children are very small, neither of those campers really has sufficient space for a family of 6. The numbers are just too close. Did you notice that one of these units has a "tent" bed? That means the bed has canvas just like a pop up. Also, the tank storage on these is just not great. You would need to dump the tanks extremely frequently (you can't leave the black tank open.....it won't empty properly) and a family of 6 will use up 15 gallons of gray water in no time at all with cooking, washing dishes and showers. Your best bet at this time is to go with a pop up or wait until you can get a tow vehicle that has more towing capacity.

 

[Nixie]

There is another MAJOR thing that people are missing here. The height + wind resistance of a TT. The government is just now making auto companies put in frontal sq. footage ratings on cars, minivans, trucks, etc. Check your owner's manual for those. There is a BIG! difference between towing a 2000lbs pop up and a 2000lbs TT. The pop up has little to no drag. A TT is the equalivent of trying to pull a barn door behind you through a hurricane. For example: My Mercury Mountaineer (same as a Ford Explorer) has a tow capacity of 3,500 because it has the 4.0L v6, 3.53 diff, and no tow package. It says in my owner's manual says my max frontal area square footage that I should be towing is 40sq. ft. which means nothing bigger than the Mercury itself. No hybrids or TTs. There is a lot more to take into consideration when towing a TT. It goes way above and beyond just your towing capacity. Differential gearing, frontal square footage of the TT, and wheelbase length of your tow vehicle are just a few. Pop ups can be a little more forgiving on these, but not a hybrid or a TT. I urge anyone who is considering purchasing a TT or hybrid to do their research before hand. Start posting on an actual RV forum (sorry, but this isn't the best place for true camper questions). I have seen too many people get talked into buying way too big of a TT for their car. I have seen one van get pulled down a hill by the TT they were trying to tow up it. I have seen way too many flip over videos on You Tube cause by too big of TTs for short wheelbased cars. Please do your research!

 

[Disney Bunny]

There is another MAJOR thing that people are missing here. The height + wind resistance of a TT. The government is just now making auto companies put in frontal sq. footage ratings on cars, minivans, trucks, etc. Check your owner's manual for those. There is a BIG! difference between towing a 2000lbs pop up and a 2000lbs TT. The pop up has little to no drag. A TT is the equalivent of trying to pull a barn door behind you through a hurricane. For example: My Mercury Mountaineer (same as a Ford Explorer) has a tow capacity of 3,500 because it has the 4.0L v6, 3.53 diff, and no tow package. It says in my owner's manual says my max frontal area square footage that I should be towing is 40sq. ft. which means nothing bigger than the Mercury itself. No hybrids or TTs. There is a lot more to take into consideration when towing a TT. It goes way above and beyond just your towing capacity. Differential gearing, frontal square footage of the TT, and wheelbase length of your tow vehicle are just a few. Pop ups can be a little more forgiving on these, but not a hybrid or a TT. I urge anyone who is considering purchasing a TT or hybrid to do their research before hand. Start posting on an actual RV forum (sorry, but this isn't the best place for true camper questions). I have seen too many people get talked into buying way too big of a TT for their car. I have seen one van get pulled down a hill by the TT they were trying to tow up it. I have seen way too many flip over videos on You Tube cause by too big of TTs for short wheelbased cars. Please do your research!

Which is why I have always encouraged people that if they are even CLOSE to maxing out their tow capacity that they should step away and rethink their choice of camper and tow vehicle. We started out with a fairly heavy pop up and a Plymouth mini van but were still well under what we could tow. However, I always could tell from the way that the minivan handled that I had the pop up behind me. We later purchased an F150 pick up for my husband and started using it to tow the pop up. WAY big difference. You couldn't even tell that you were towing anything. When we moved up from the pop up to a 27 foot travel trailer, we thought we had done all of our homework properly concerning what we could tow. After I totaled the truck and the trailer, we started second guessing ourselves and think that we may have had too much camper for the truck as we were just about max weight. When we replaced the F150 with an F250 diesel and purchased our 5th wheel, we were extremely cautious about weight ratios and such. We are about 22% UNDER what we allegedly can tow. However, the wheel base on the F250 just really never worked well with the 5th wheel and I HATED the ride. So much so that when Ford redesigned the F250, we bought a new one after only 3 years. Same style truck but with a different wheelbase and heavier frame and it made a world of difference.

Having been there, done that TRUST me when I tell you that you don't want to be sitting upside down in a ditch facing south on the northbound side of
I-95. We were lucky......and blessed beyond belief. DH had minor scrapes/cuts and I ended up with one nice size cut with glass in it just above my left elbow. It could have been much worse.

 

[Nixie]

One thing that also hasn't been mentioned is tongue weight. I highly suspect that these campers are already over the tongue weight that can be safely handled by the hitch on the mini van.

 

[bama_ed]

How about either one of these??? Can I safely tow??

http://www.kz-rv.com/sportsmen-classic/16RBT.html

http://www.kz-rv.com/sportsmen-classic/16BHT.html

lukenick,

I would be concerned about these becaue the cargo carrying capacity is so small (~450#).

If you click over to the Specifications link for the sites above, you'll notice that a propane tank is OPTIONAL so its not in the unloaded weight number. That's 40# full (tank plus fuel).

If you are bring it to the Fort you will probably need the roof-mounted air conditioner. That's 60#.

If you camp off-net you need to fill the 10 gallon water tank plus allow for the 6 gal in the optional water heater. For 16 gal at 8# per is 128#.

Kids are probably going to want to bring their bikes (maybe stash them inside the camper during travel mode?) At maybe 35# per bike that's 140# (assuming you and DH don't bring one).

The awning is optional too and it might add 20#.

So the weight adds up. And you haven't even packed for the trip or loaded groceries yet. Nor stocked it with pots/pans and other trailer stuff.

As Nixie said you can head over to other forums like rv.net. I checked over there (typed "Sienna" in the Travel Trailer forum). Their concerns are what we voiced here. But you should probably cast a wider net for sure to educate yourself.

But I sure don't like the Sienna part of this.

Bama Ed