Boycotting the NFL

[olwyngdh]

You don't commit arrestable offenses, you won't be arrested. Pretty simple.

Not true. People are arrested all the time for something they didn't do, because of mistaken identity, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most of the time, those cases don't go to trial, but the arrests still happen.

 

[olwyngdh]

I would call 911 to confirm that it is a real stop. And yes, I heard that somewhere as an appropriate thing to do.

Should 911 not be available, I would slow down and out on emergency flashers to indicate that I realize I need to pull over.

The gun is extreme. There was a case where a mom was pulled over. She complied. An error was realized. As scary as it was, she did exactly what she should have done to keep herself and her children safe. I would have been terrified. Stop should not have happened. But she complied since she didn't know why she was being pulled over and evading police isn't typically an option.

They did eventually apologize saying she did nothing wrong and she was considering a lawsuit and I don't blame her and I hope she does she and get some recourse for what she and her kids went through. But the side of the road was not the time to address that as if could have wrongfully resulted in her death. Link: http://abc7chicago.com/news/texas-p...-children-over-at-gunpoint-by-mistake/277874/

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/09/02/mom-talks-about-forney-traffic-stop-possible-lawsuit/


Have you heard of other cases? But as I said--I would call 911 if I am in such an area where I question my safety or the legitimacy of the stop.

I never thought about calling 911--cell phone usage while driving is not something I do. I did put on my flashers. He pulled me over because I had a headlight out. He was very nasty about me not pulling over immediately, but calmed down once I told him why and showed him my ID. He did get nasty about my plate and license being from different states, and the address on my license being from a different state than the one issuing the license, but once he called it in, he found out that it is legal for me. He ended up letting me off with a warning, and he apologized to my daughter for scaring her, but his initial behavior was way overboard and I did call and report him when I got home.

I also no longer take that route home because I don't trust the police in that area, even though I know the daughter of one and I have a friend who is a dispatcher for that department.

I don 't know what his reasoning was for the gun, and I certainly wasn't going to ask, but somehow my soccer mom van with the Girl Scout and Dance magnets all over the back must have been threatening somehow.

 

[TAX GUY]

I never thought about calling 911--cell phone usage while driving is not something I do. I did put on my flashers. He pulled me over because I had a headlight out. He was very nasty about me not pulling over immediately, but calmed down once I told him why and showed him my ID. He did get nasty about my plate and license being from different states, and the address on my license being from a different state than the one issuing the license, but once he called it in, he found out that it is legal for me. He ended up letting me off with a warning, and he apologized to my daughter for scaring her, but his initial behavior was way overboard and I did call and report him when I got home.

Maybe he should have issued you that citation for faulty equipment so you get it fixed and not have to encounter being pulled over for it again.

I also no longer take that route home because I don't trust the police in that area, even though I know the daughter of one and I have a friend who is a dispatcher for that department.

You don't trust the entire department after this one instance of being pulled over?

I don 't know what his reasoning was for the gun, and I certainly wasn't going to ask, but somehow my soccer mom van with the Girl Scout and Dance magnets all over the back must have been threatening somehow.

Maybe there was a BOLO for a vehicle matching the description of your soccer mom van? Not all criminals drive criminal looking cars (if there is such a thing).

 

[DizBelle]

So... I'm just going to respond as if all of your posts have been sincere.

I get that there is a disconnect for you somewhere, when it comes to either understanding the concept of victim-blaming, or accepting that it exists. Which is reasonable to expect, as its largely an unconscious thing.

It might help you to understand why people are bringing it up in response to statements about Eric Garner contributing to his own death, by reading this http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-love-and-war/201311/why-do-we-blame-victims

You are correct. Nobody has openly stated that they believe the chokehold was an acceptable method to use. Yes. Agreed. Just like nobody (typically) openly says that rape (I know, I know... you don't accept that it has any place in the conversation - bear with me!) is acceptable.

The problem is, that by continuing to say things like "yes, but he was resisting arrest", or "yes, but he was doing something illegal" implies that he was somehow asking for it... "it" being his own death. Hence - blaming the victim.

You are more than welcome to reject the concept... but that does not mean that the concept does not exist, or that it does not apply to what you (and others) have been saying.

"It" is not his own death. "It" is the escalation of events that led to his death. Are you suggesting it is reasonable for Garner to have thought that the police were just going to walk away and leave him alone because he asked?

 

[CPT Tripss]

That doesn't mean they are right either.

On the surface, I agree it looks like the jury got it wrong, way wrong, but until the GJ documents are released NONE of us will know what information they had on which to base their decision.

I don't expect a document release. Do you?

 

[wvjules]

I don't expect a document release. Do you?

Nope, which means everyone saying the GJ decision was right, or wrong, had no idea what information was presented and it's all guessing and adding fuel to the flames. No one knows if the GJ decision was right or wrong, you, me, Bill O'Riley, Bush, etc.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Nope, which means everyone saying the GJ decision was right, or wrong, had no idea what information was presented and it's all guessing and adding fuel to the flames. No one knows if the GJ decision was right or wrong, you, me, Bill O'Riley, Bush, etc.

The "fire extinguisher" is in the hands of the legal system and it is doing just as little as the EMTs that responded to the medical emergency. Nothing.

 

[olwyngdh]

Maybe he should have issued you that citation for faulty equipment so you get it fixed and not have to encounter being pulled over for it again.
You don't trust the entire department after this one instance of being pulled over?
Maybe there was a BOLO for a vehicle matching the description of your soccer mom van? Not all criminals drive criminal looking cars (if there is such a thing).

I have dealt with 2 police departments in MA, and no, I don't trust the average cop on either of them.

If he had given me a citation, I would not have had an issue with it. My headlight was out. He chose not to, as he has the right to do. I figure he didn't so I wouldn't complain about him pulling a gun on me for no good reason. He also had no right to give me a hassle over my license because it is valid, he was just not familiar enough with the law to know that.

 

[LBIJim]

I thought this thread was about football?

Was it ever about football per se? Touchdowns, field goals, and interceptions?

It was fairly obvious the direction this thread would take after a few pages.

Just think of it as Brown/Garner Chapter Two.

Sorry for the interuption. Carry on.

 

[sunnyday123]

Dante Stallworth killed a man while drinking and driving.
Ray Lewis's bodyguards killed someone in a club.
Michael Vick was involved in a dogfighting ring.
Lawrence Taylor hired an underage prostitute.
Adrian Peterson whipped his son bloody.
Ray Rice punched his fiancee unconscious.
Dez Bryant hit his mother.
Brett Favre sexually harassed a female journalist.
Ben Roethlesberger may have raped several women.
O. J. Simpson probably killed his wife.

And this is why I stopped watching football a long time ago.

 

[usd2bmd]

I am not willing to absolve Garner of his responsibility in what happened, as you are.

You don't commit arrestable offenses, you won't be arrested. Pretty simple.

Tell that to any of the men who have been in the new recently after being released from prison for a crime they did not commit.

We all know that innocent people are never wrongfully convicted. But before they are wrongfully convicted, they are wrongfully arrested.

 

[CPT Tripss]

I am not willing to absolve Garner of his responsibility in what happened, as you are.

You don't commit arrestable offenses, you won't be arrested. Pretty simple.

You are so wrong

Close to half of all stop and frisk arrests resulted in no convictions because the arrestees were never prosecuted, their cases were dismissed, or they received an adjournment in contemplation of dismissal (a dismissal of a charge if the defendant does not commit another crime within six months or a year);
Just 1 in 16 stop and frisk arrests — or 0.3 percent of all stops — led to a jail or prison sentence of more than 30 days;
Just 1 in 50 stop and frisk arrests — or 0.1 percent of all stops — led to a conviction for a violent crime;
Just 1 in 50 stop and frisk arrests — or 0.1 percent of all stops — led to a conviction for possession of a weapon;
Almost one quarter of stop-and-frisk arrests (24.7 percent) were dismissed before arraignment or resulted in a non-criminal charge.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/11/14/ag-half-of-stop-and-frisk-arrests-dont-lead-to-convictions/

 

[rickybobby]

Let me preface my question with this statement. I think there were some serious problems with the arrest of the gentleman on Staten Island, but my concern is more with the lack of medical assistance rendered on the scene after the takedown. I have not seen the footage, but from what I have heard and read, he was in distress, and seems he was not adequately tended to by the medical professionals while on the ground. That said.............

Tell me, anyone, what alternative arrest method should have occured here? It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, so let's have some well thought out answers, and we will analyze. Bear in mind, you have lots of time to think, unlike the officers who have to make an on the spot decision.
Also, bear in mind that the "just walk away" method is not in play. They had an order from a superior officer to arrest the man, and have no choice. They can't go back to the station and say "he resisted, and was real big, so we had to let him go".

 

[declansdad]

Let me preface my question with this statement. I think there were some serious problems with the arrest of the gentleman on Staten Island, but my concern is more with the lack of medical assistance rendered on the scene after the takedown. I have not seen the footage, but from what I have heard and read, he was in distress, and seems he was not adequately tended to by the medical professionals while on the ground. That said.............

Tell me, anyone, what alternative arrest method should have occured here? It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, so let's have some well thought out answers, and we will analyze. Bear in mind, you have lots of time to think, unlike the officers who have to make an on the spot decision.
Also, bear in mind that the "just walk away" method is not in play. They had an order from a superior officer to arrest the man, and have no choice. They can't go back to the station and say "he resisted, and was real big, so we had to let him go".

I'm sure these officers have been trained on something other that a choke hold that has been banned for years.

 

[rickybobby]

Not a valid answer. "Something other than" is not specific at all.

 

[declansdad]

Not a valid answer. "Something other than" is not specific at all.

Sure it is, I'm not a cop. They have the training not me.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Not a valid answer. "Something other than" is not specific at all.

None of us are trained officers. So to provide you a specific alternative is next to impossible.

But they had their numbers to their advantage. Using a Taser would have been an option. However, that option may have also been too much and might have yielded a medical distress outcome

Heck--even going all movie on him and drawing guns and yelling freeze might have been better. The guns would a be come under criticism, but he would still be alive. But then again, if he didn't comply promptly, he may have also been shot.

What is interesting--did anyone see the article about the officer saying he was not actually doing a choke hold? That was an unexpected thing to read and I am not sure that the video agrees with him. I.e. Maybe that wasn't his intent--but it certainly seems to have been the result.

*i am not in the force hence my limited list of alternatives that were likely inappropriate so not a real option.

 

[rickybobby]

Taser fire may have very likely caused the same result. This man is severely obese, has Congestive Heart Failure, and asthma. My opinion is a possible heart attack. He did not seem to have the loud wheezing that would likely have come from a severe asthma attack.

I have now watched the video in its entirety, and can definitely spell out serious flaws in the post handcuff time frame. When it became obvious that the man was not responsive, an AED would have been a good option to immediately bring up. I don't know if any of the police routinely carry one in their patrol cars, but I'm sure a local business may have had one.
When EMS arrived, supplemental oxygen should have been started immediately. This man should have been huffing and puffing after the struggle, which points quickly to actual respiratory and/or cardiac failure.
Maybe I just missed it on the video, but I never saw the officers check for breathing or a pulse. Surely they are trained on basic life support.
So I do see serious flaws in the care, and a justified outrage over the aftermath, but I do not believe the "chokehold" was responsible for the death. If the larynx were damaged while the man was being held around the neck, there should have been some serious changes to the voice of the arrestee while on the ground, but he sounded the same while shouting "I can't breathe" as he did before being accosted. I absolutely do believe he was truthful that he could not breathe, but I think the takedown in general triggered whatever it was that killed the man.
Again, if adequate care was given quickly when he became non responsive, there is a good chance he would be alive today.

 

[smiths02]

None of us are trained officers. So to provide you a specific alternative is next to impossible.

But they had their numbers to their advantage. Using a Taser would have been an option. However, that option may have also been too much and might have yielded a medical distress outcome

Heck--even going all movie on him and drawing guns and yelling freeze might have been better. The guns would a be come under criticism, but he would still be alive. But then again, if he didn't comply promptly, he may have also been shot.

What is interesting--did anyone see the article about the officer saying he was not actually doing a choke hold? That was an unexpected thing to read and I am not sure that the video agrees with him. I.e. Maybe that wasn't his intent--but it certainly seems to have been the result.

*i am not in the force hence my limited list of alternatives that were likely inappropriate so not a real option.

Did they even have Tasers? However, a Taser might have led to the same outcome...he would have been shocked, held to the ground, etc. still in this case (and it seems that being held on the ground and his medical conditions were the major contributors to his death)
There was at least one Taser death in the county I lived in previously (a large man with medical conditions like Mr. Garner) and the force had to stop carrying them.

Police are not supposed to draw guns for no reason. Guns are not used for compliance, they are used as a last resort of self-defense.

 

[luvsJack]

Taser fire may have very likely caused the same result. This man is severely obese, has Congestive Heart Failure, and asthma. My opinion is a possible heart attack. He did not seem to have the loud wheezing that would likely have come from a severe asthma attack.

I have now watched the video in its entirety, and can definitely spell out serious flaws in the post handcuff time frame. When it became obvious that the man was not responsive, an AED would have been a good option to immediately bring up. I don't know if any of the police routinely carry one in their patrol cars, but I'm sure a local business may have had one.
When EMS arrived, supplemental oxygen should have been started immediately. This man should have been huffing and puffing after the struggle, which points quickly to actual respiratory and/or cardiac failure.
Maybe I just missed it on the video, but I never saw the officers check for breathing or a pulse. Surely they are trained on basic life support.
So I do see serious flaws in the care, and a justified outrage over the aftermath, but I do not believe the "chokehold" was responsible for the death. If the larynx were damaged while the man was being held around the neck, there should have been some serious changes to the voice of the arrestee while on the ground, but he sounded the same while shouting "I can't breathe" as he did before being accosted. I absolutely do believe he was truthful that he could not breathe, but I think the takedown in general triggered whatever it was that killed the man.
Again, if adequate care was given quickly when he became non responsive, there is a good chance he would be alive today.

The inadequate care he received is a big issue and should be addressed. But it doesn't change the fact that the officer used something that is against the policy of his department.