"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[MickeyMinnieMom]

In any profession if it is noted that there are deficiencies or processes that aren't working that organization has an obligation and will make it possible to get these problems fixed. Especially when there are human lives at stake.

My husband is a physician. Suppose his practice had a high infection rate or, worse high death rate.

Actually, your husband's profession has a FAR bigger problem than police officers wrt "errors" AND loss of life...

Medical Errors Are No. 3 Cause Of U.S Deaths, Researchers Say
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ertificates-undercount-toll-of-medical-errors

I don't know what's actually being done about that, but I agree... no excuse not to improve.

As I said before, I agree, of course, that bandwidth is not a reason for deficient training. I doubt any PD would give that as a reason. That said, major cities ARE facing a major challenge retaining and recruiting officers. The current toxic climate is certainly playing a part, and this is to all our detriment.

 

[ASchwa]

A grand jury deciding there's not enough to bring charges doesn't mean he did nothing wrong. I've seen this in several of your posts.
Police officers have more leeway in what they are allowed to do and what is criminal than the average citizen does. They have to by the nature of there job. With that being the case, it's often more difficult to get indictments and/or guilty verdicts because they are held a different standard. That lack of indictment of guilty verdict doesn't mean they did nothing wrong. It doesn't mean people are wrong to question their actions.

I said he was exonerated, and I understand what not guilty means. I studied to be a paralegal so I know the jargon. If they can't get an indictment in a Grand Jury, then no criminal charges will ever be brought. I have seen in other posts people hoping he would be criminally charged, I just inform what I found. I do have critical thinking and I know where so called news outlets tell lies that they never correct. Eric Casebolt will never get a correction from what the so called news outlets gave him, but at least he is working and will face no criminal charges.

 

[CPanther95]

Actually, your husband's profession has a FAR bigger problem than police officers wrt "errors" AND loss of life...

Medical Errors Are No. 3 Cause Of U.S Deaths, Researchers Say
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ertificates-undercount-toll-of-medical-errors

I don't know what's actually being done about that, but I agree... no excuse not to improve.

What's really sad is that sick people are affected at a much higher rate than healthy people - almost as if they are targeting them.

 

[mummabear]

I said he was exonerated, and I understand what not guilty means. I studied to be a paralegal so I know the jargon. If they can't get an indictment in a Grand Jury, then no criminal charges will ever be brought. I have seen in other posts people hoping he would be criminally charged, I just inform what I found. I do have critical thinking and I know where so called news outlets tell lies that they never correct. Eric Casebolt will never get a correction from what the so called news outlets gave him, but at least he is working and will face no criminal charges.

A little off the point but I wanted to note that there is no innocent verdict, we know not guilty can mean they didn't have enough evidence but there is no we found them innocent. I hate when people say he was found not guilty not innocent

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I didn't say a bad neighborhood, I said a predominately black one. See how you associated a black neighborhood with a bad neighborhood? It's an excellent example.

The clothing, too. Why (unless it is obvious gang insignia) would someone's style of dress cause you to automatically assume they were dangerous? Because it is a predominately "urban" style?

That's because for good, better, or worse, I've never experienced an obviously "black" neighborhood that wasn't also a "bad" neighborhood. You can label that any way you wish, but it is what it is.

As for clothing & such, please. We judge people we see based on their clothing, looks, the type of car they drive, the age & condition of the car, the people they associate with, etc, etc. We all do it. Is it wrong? Sure. But, the fact remains were I to see identical twins - one dressed like a gang banger & one like s school teacher, I'm not having identical initial reactions to them.

 

[cabanafrau]

You can start by listening and trying to understand how those hundreds of years of mistreatment might have repercussions on so many people today. How it might have created certain ideas, prejudices, and social constructs that need to be acknowledged, addressed, and broken down before we can even start to move towards this utopia you are dreaming of.

I didn't say anything about locking it away and pretending it didn't happen. That's foolish. By the same token it's not helpful to enshrine the old arguments and give them a power today in situations where they deserve no power or consideration. Should I tell everyone to be prepared to acknowledge, address and break down certain ideas, prejudices and social constructs at my daughter's grad party this weekend? Should I have done some evaluation of racist attitudes before sending the invitations? What place or power should old fights or prejudices that aren't those of the participants in these events play in these events? I say none. Why should or would they if we're all happy and content, getting along and living our lives -- despite knowing that bad things happen(ed) and prejudices exist?

 

[JimMIA]

Yes, I do mean it. In the sense that I could respond with deadly force to what I believed was a weapon being used to attack in a situation of imminent danger. In the aftermath it could be revealed that I misunderstood the situation completely and I had recklessly used deadly force. Something like this could play out within a violent altercation where a hostage or victim was mistaken for an attacker during an attempt by them to disable the attacker.

Ok, but the example you use here is NOT a reckless use of force -- and this is key to understanding situations where split-second use of force decisions are made. What is in the mind of the shooter at that instant is the governing principle used to determine whether the level of force was justified or not justified. IT DOES NOT MATTER what subsequent investigation reveals. If the shooter -- whether civilian or law enforcement -- honestly believes they or someone else are in danger of being killed or seriously injured, the use of force is justified...even if it turns out they made a mistake.

 

[ASchwa]

I didn't say a bad neighborhood, I said a predominately black one. See how you associated a black neighborhood with a bad neighborhood? It's an excellent example.

The clothing, too. Why (unless it is obvious gang insignia) would someone's style of dress cause you to automatically assume they were dangerous? Because it is a predominately "urban" style?



I don't care. He was wrong. Dead {word I can't use here} wrong. How would you feel if that were your child? Would you think it was okay?

I had an argument with my daughter at Macy's over a prom dress (she is 17) she got sassy and didn't get dressed and get moving when I told her to. If you were in Macy's and saw me grab her by the back of the hair and slam her, face down, to the floor and then kneel on the small of her back while twisting her arms behind her what would you do what would you do?

You can feel that he was dead wrong, you can feel that he was prejudiced, but a Grand Jury didn't find that. He told her 3 times to go home, the area was in chaos. She didn't, she resisted, then she cries for her mother. If she had gone home the first time he said something, then nothing would have happened. As for you and your daughter, I have no clue what you look like, and to be honest your not a police officer, so most likely I would call the police on you.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Did anyone watch the Memorial Service for the Dallas officers? President Obama addressed what these last 37 pages tried to do in a much more eloquent way. I strongly encourage everyone to find a video or transcript.

Without getting political, I thought a good deal of it was inappropriate for a memorial service. Any POTUS can have all eyes on them at any time -- not the time or place for some of what he said, IMO.

 

[gwynne]

Did anyone watch the Memorial Service for the Dallas officers? President Obama addressed what these last 37 pages tried to do in a much more eloquent way. I strongly encourage everyone to find a video or transcript.

I did. I think he did a good job of outlining the steps ahead.
I believe it's possible to care about two issues at once, and work hard on both. Much of his talk was in that line.

 

[taitai]

Without getting political, I thought a good deal of it was inappropriate for a memorial service. Any POTUS can have all eyes on them at any time -- not the time or place for some of what he said, IMO.

What was inappropriate?

 

[Gracie09]

In & of itself that's meaningless. Maybe he was a crappy driver. I have a friend who looks a lot like me who was pulled over more than 3 times as much as I was as a teen. OTOH, I received more tickets.


Did your coworker ever get the impression cops were more cautious or anxious around him than they would have been with you?

In all those stops, he never received a ticket. I imagine if he was a crappy driver he would have received at least one ticket. Since I have not been pulled over in the same area I cannot tell you if they are more or less cautious with him vs me. But I guess yes.

 

[Gracie09]

That's because for good, better, or worse, I've never experienced an obviously "black" neighborhood that wasn't also a "bad" neighborhood. You can label that any way you wish, but it is what it is.

As for clothing & such, please. We judge people we see based on their clothing, looks, the type of car they drive, the age & condition of the car, the people they associate with, etc, etc. We all do it. Is it wrong? Sure. But, the fact remains were I to see identical twins - one dressed like a gang banger & one like s school teacher, I'm not having identical initial reactions to them.

Really than you should come visit by me. There are several predominately black, or ethnically diverse middle, upper-middle class neighborhoods and towns in my area. They even have good schools.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

What was inappropriate?

I'd prefer not to get into specifics on a Board like this -- don't think it would be productive. That's just my opinion, and of course everyone will have their own.

 

[mummabear]

The use of lethal and deadly force should ALWAYS be very thoroughly analyzed. That is a very serious action to take and should never be taken lightly. There will be some tragic mistakes. Hopefully a thorough analysis will allow for some lessons to be learned to help avoid as many mistakes and accidents as humanly possible.

I believe lethal force was used in both the Pulse nightclub incident and of course in the Dallas incident last week. Those are understandable uses of deadly force, but they should still be studied (and I'm certain they are) to see what can be learned that can be useful in any way.

Where analysis reveals a reckless use of deadly force absent rational explanation there needs to be consequences. The consequences need to fit the circumstances and to deter others from engaging in similar behavior. I think we will see consequences of the Minnesota shooting.

I think you are missing the fact that that Police are also being shot regularly, that in these split decisions when someone is coming at them if they wait too long it's them that's dead instead, that is what the cops are risking.
I am not denying that it is likely that blacks are being pulled over more often, are dealing with police more regularly but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't comply with officers instructions. Don't run, don't come at them, if they have you pinned down to search you or handcuff you do t reach for your pocket, same rules apply no matter what the colour of your skin.

I think everyone realizes that being a police officer is a difficult and dangerous job. No one disputes the necessity of the job they do, but, with all do respect, these are just excuses.

Again it's not excuses, you would like to see officers more thoroughly consider things before shooting, you are asking for a lot more dead cops.

Going back to the Texas thing where the officer grabbed the teenage girl in the bathing suit by her hair and slammed her repeatedly to the ground and then kneeled on her lower back with her hands held behind her. Regardless of that child's racial make-up, that was an inappropriate use of force. That child was no physical threat to him, She was mouthy. I have teenage girls, they get mouthy. They don't always do what they are told. If I grabbed one of my girls by the hair and slammed her face down to the ground because she didn't comply with my 1st request and gave me lip. I would be in a world of legal trouble. I know not to do that, and I would never do it. A trained police officer should be held to the same standard.

I don't think it is an acceptable way for a cop to have treated this girl although I admittedly don't know much about this altercation but yes you comply to an officers 1st request, every time, they are not your momma, you don't give them lip, you treat them with respect as people who put their lives on the line to protect yours. You treat them with respect because you want them to treat you with respect.
And children should be taught that.

Once again real easy to suggest "letting it go and leaving in the dust" when you aren't the one who has been wronged and mistreated for hundreds of years. I

And neither are you, you haven't been alive for hundreds of years right? Being mad at what has happened to you, makes sense, not forgetting history, makes sense. Holding grudges for things that didn't happen to you against people that didn't do it, that's part of why society isn't moving forward.

Agree with your post. And to the point that "Sometimes, that is a split-second decision" and how DIFFICULT a call that can be, I found this interesting:

Very interesting, just want to add that he still shot the unarmed man in a situation where he knew it was a training and he wouldn't actually get hurt/die. Maybe in the first scenario he would have had his gun out sooner in the real world.

 

[rickybobby]

What was inappropriate?

It was a memorial service for the fallen officers.

 

[JimMIA]

A grand jury deciding there's not enough to bring charges doesn't mean he did nothing wrong.

This part is correct, and it applies to every situation where a prosecutor makes a decision to file or not file criminal charges. The question is not whether a person did something wrong or not.

The question is whether or not there is sufficient probable cause to believe a) that a crime was committed, and b) that the person in question committed that crime.

A decision to file charges does NOT mean the person is guilty. A decision not to file charges does NOT mean the person is innocent. The same is true of jury decisions. "Innocent" is not one of the choices a jury has, because it is not required for anyone to prove their innocence. Juries decide "Guilty" or "Not Guilty," nothing more.

You will sometimes see media reports saying no charges are being filed and therefore the person is exonerated. That is absolutely not true. All that happened is a prosecutor decided they didn't have a case that could be successfully prosecuted.

Police officers have more leeway in what they are allowed to do and what is criminal than the average citizen does.

This is totally and absolutely FALSE. In fact, most of the time police officers are held to a higher standard than average citizens.

Why? Because they have specialized training that gives them both special skills and special responsibilities.

In a shoot-don't shoot situation, a civilian would be granted an order of magnitude MORE latitude than a police officer -- because the point where you have no other option than deadly force is reached much earlier than it would be for me. If you're scared and pull the trigger, you're probably OK because you don't know what else to do. I have a lot of training in avoiding that "no other option" threshold than you do.

Conversely, I also have a great deal more training and experience in evaluating threats than you do, and I probably will identify threats much more quickly than you will and much more accurately. So I probably will see threats you don't see. In some cases, that will mean I diffuse them. In other cases, I might use force much earlier than you would and leave you scratching your head. Or...your inability to identify the threat could leave you dead.

 

[JimMIA]

What's really sad is that sick people are affected at a much higher rate than healthy people - almost as if they are targeting them.

"I don't care who you are...that right there is funny!"

 

[gwynne]

It was a memorial service for the fallen officers.

I thought the fallen officers were very much honored and memorialized. They will be for some time to come, as well. As is also very appropriate.

 

[taitai]

I like how he spoke of each individually. I like how he addressed the mayor and the police department and the chief. How he addressed the citizens of Dallas and everything they have been going through. I was a little concerned when the Police Chief started his remarks and began with trying to pick up girls with Stevie Wonder lyrics but in the end it all worked out and made sense. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was a great finish.