"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[Disn3yVision]

I have been pondering your post today.
I think the difference between Black lives matter vs. let's cure cancer is that cancer isn't blaming another diease. In this case Black lives matter are saying that rasist cops are murdering black men for no reason except their skin colour, when those same cops they are blaming are 18 x more likely to die from being shot on the line of duty, which is why I think some people are countering with blue lives matter. A poster up thread shared a list of the "poster children" of black lives matter.
To give some perspective Trayveen died Feb 2012. In 2012 131 officer died in the line of duty, 2013 109, 2014 122, 2015 123, 2016 58 and counting. Now is it any wonder cops are nervous.

You are right though that just because it isn't the biggest problem doesn't mean there isn't a problem (of some sort, I personally don't think there are widespread rasist cops are the root of the issue)

First of all, THANK YOU for pondering my post. The fact that you are thinking about the issue, and about your perspective and feelings, and why you feel the way you do... we all have to do that. That is the only way we are going to move forward in this conversation. In regards to your statement, thats exactly my point... I don't think Black Lives Matter is blaming another race. We aren't saying racist cops are murdering black men for no reason. I think they are saying that the for many reasons, police officers might approach or react differently to different people for different reasons. A lone, thin, beautiful white woman in her mid 20's being pulled over in a 1996 honda civic is unlikely to raise apprehension in an approaching officer. But a lone. black male, large and tattooed driving a 1996 honda civic might raise different feeling in the officer. Does this mean he is racist? No. We are human beings. Lets be clear, Blacks, and Black Men particularly, have been portrayed in a very specific way over the last 300 years. There are certain connotations and perceptions we all have... that we are ALL responsible for. This is what we need to address. Personally I believe it all comes down to fear. I believe many of these police truly fear for there lives when committing these murders. But why? Why are they more likely to fear a Black man? What can we do to help change that? What can we all do? Individually and as a nation?

Regarding your statistics... you said about 120 officers die a year in the line of duty. THIS YEAR ALONE 123 BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE. There have been 512 shooting deaths total that law enforcement is responsible for!!! And the year is barely halfway over....

I've heard that Black Lives Matter is racist, divisionist, violent and evil. But to me this is what Black Lives Matter keeps screaming, "Please help us. We are being treated unfairly and we need your help. Lets all come together. PLEASE HELP US ALL TRULY BECOME EQUALS."

TD Jakes said it better than I ever could. We want peace and healing. For people to stop dying. We HAVE to work TOGETHER in order to make that happen.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/article88614297.html

 

[NHdisneylover]

Perhaps this has been posted before I started reading hte thread--but in light of several posters saying the official BLM movement condones violence and incites it I looked it up a little bit (given that I had not even realized it was an official group and not just a phrase being adopted by many protestors) and here is, at least, their statement about the Dallas police shooting as reported by CNN. it does not sound like inciting violence to me at all:

"Black Lives Matter protesters condemned the Dallas killings, calling the attack on law enforcement a tragedy not just for those affected but also for the nation.
"Black activists have raised the call for an end to violence, not an escalation of it. (Thursday's) attack was the result of the actions of a lone gunman," the group said.
"To assign the actions of one person to an entire movement is dangerous and irresponsible. We continue our efforts to bring about a better world for all of us."


and you know, many people claimed the civil rights movement of the 60s and the women's rights movements at the turn of the last century and again in the 70s devisive---often those who like the status quo see anything aimed at changing it as devisive--so far I see more devisive rhetoric from the side that wants to protect teh status quo than otherwise--and while that may be in reaction to the BLM movement, I don't think that makes the movement devisive--it just means people who are already included tend to get defensive when told they might be being exclusionary.
Though, again, I admit to not having looked into specific people and leaders in any sort of detail.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Things we also know:

black people are much more likely to be arrested and held for hte same crimes (or lack of crime) than their white counter parts.
Black people are much more likely to be charged in similar circumstances than white, and more likely to be charged with heavier charges and found guilty and given higher sentences (including to serve jail time rather than probation or fines) than white counter parts.

so that alone skews the stastics, doesn't it?

and then we know that there is an extremly high rate of recitivism in this country, and that "low risk/non violent" criminals often come out of jail much higher risk and more likely to be violent--so simply jailing the black kids cuaght with pot and not their white counterparts means we are contributing to the problem of more black men involved in violent crime (after learning to do so in prison, and losing faith in society, and losing the ability to get decent jobs beucase they were in jail previously etc) than white people (who might have doen the same thing as teens but not been put in jail).

now add in that in nearly every state the rates of black people living in poverty are at least double that of white (often more) and let's look at how poverty and economic difference affect crime and how that affects the childhood and education of people before they are even old enough to havem much of any say in their own lives and we start to get to the roots of many of these problems---you know, where we are OK with letting poor people (which affects black and hispanic people at much higher rates to this day in our country) grow up with violence, not enough food, sub par schools, dirty water, lack of access to good public tranist or afforadble fresh groceries, etc and you see how pervasive the issue really is and how difficult it can be to "escape"

We do know, from many studies that even black officers and black judges tend to see other black people as more likely to be guilty of a crime based on same evidence, and more likely to be a threat, etc---which once again points to how pervasive and all emcompassing this attitude is in our daily lives to such a point that we truly do not see it or intend it, it is just there--which is the point--that needs addressed. It it can't be addressed by people who refuse to see it and keep trying to inssit all the problems come solely from within that smaller community in our society.

We also know that prosecutors use the mandatory weapons sentencing to get plea deals on lesser charges. Many of the "holding pot" sentences that seem extreme on the surface were plea deals on much harsher charges.

That's not to say you have no point. You do. But, stats alone don't tell the entire story.

There's also the fact that many black men have poor representation because they are poor. Being black has its disadvantages, but being poor has many more.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Regarding your statistics... you said about 120 officers die a year in the line of duty. THIS YEAR ALONE 123 BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE. There have been 512 shooting deaths total that law enforcement is responsible for!!!

What website is that graphic from? I'd be interested in looking at the database.

 

[NHdisneylover]

We also know that prosecutors use the mandatory weapons sentencing to get plea deals on lesser charges. Many of the "holding pot" sentences that seem extreme on the surface were plea deals on much harsher charges.

That's not to say you have no point. You do. But, stats alone don't tell the entire story.

There's also the fact that many black men have poor representation because they are poor. Being black has its disadvantages, but being poor has many more.

I agree--and as I said it is never as simple as one stat (and I go back to the fact that if you are black you are much more likely to be poor, than if you are white--something we have never been able to get past--that is one of hte things which I htink is at the root of much of this)

 

[asta]

What website is that graphic from? I'd be interested in looking at the database.

Not the OP but I think this comes from the Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/

 

[Patch'sD]

yes--all lives matter, but our system is currently rigged to make it much harder for blacks to be as successful in their lives and much more likely for them to lose their lives in a variety of ways--thus we need reminders that Black Lives Matter (too, or just as much as other lives, etc) in ways that we do not need reminders about white lives.

It is sort of like why Gay pride events make sense (that group is often trageted, has historically been denied many rights, etc) but straight pride events are not needed or productive--straight people have not had to fight for their rights or been highly likely to be victims of crime just for being straight, etc.

Same thing, different group not being treated fairly, thus the need to highlight that and work towards trating that group well so that, in the end, we are acting as if all lives really do matter

How is the system rigged?

 

[Disn3yVision]

What website is that graphic from? I'd be interested in looking at the database.

Its from the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/

 

[longboard55]

people ask why blacks are taking so long to be successful. I am 61, I did not have a black person in my school until I was 15, when we got one. That was the first time I ever spoke with a black person. That was not that long ago. They have lived in total suppressed condtions for 300 years. Its going to take more than one generation to get things straight

 

[Disn3yVision]

Personally, from viewing things through the lense of a middle class, middle aged white woman:

I think ALL lives do matter but I think we have very deep and pervasive predjudices and systemic issues within our society which result in minority lives, most espeically black ones, being treated as if they matter far less in our country than white ones do--and that IS a huge problem and that DOES need addressing.

Yes, black on black crime is awful and needs addressed. As does white on white crime, etc----but at the end of the day, we can see clearly, over and over again, that black people are more likely to be injured than white in similar circumstances with police. We can see a HUGE tendency to charge black people more often, more heavily and then sentence with longer sentences, for identical crimes to their white counterparts. We even see huge disparities in how white school children are punished versus their black counterparts and how white criminals are protrayed in the media versus black ones (look at the type of photographs used first, the "records" printed--is it the criminal history or the GPA and sports sucesses you are hearing about?, etc).
NONE of this is about one case, or a couple--it is a much deeper, overall societal trend that is so deeply ingrained that many do not even realize it and lots of "good guys" of all colors participate in it without even meaning to.

 

[NHdisneylover]

How is the system rigged?

In ways I have been posting (along with many others) like being a clear pattern of black people being more likely to end up with jail time for the exact same offenses as white people (again, this can also be tied to income, but we know that black people are much more likely to live in poverty--including growing up in poverty). And being more likely to have stiffer and logner sentences for the same things. and being more likely to be suspended from shcool for the same things than their white coutnerparts. And being more likely to grow up in poverty. And being more less likely to called in for job interviews if their name indicates theare likely black than if it is more "hite" sounding (lots of studies on this--it happens), etc, etc, etc and on and on---and I beleive most of it in unintentional and subconsios, but it is there (and, well, reading this thread, I am begining tothink, sadly, it might be less subconcious and less unintended than i have beleived).

 

[kamik86]

Regarding your statistics... you said about 120 officers die a year in the line of duty. THIS YEAR ALONE 123 BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE. There have been 512 shooting deaths total that law enforcement is responsible for!!! And the year is barely halfway over....

See the first thing I think of during this is how many of those was the officer right?

I saw another post about the number of white men shot by police and thought the same thing... how many of those cases was the officer right?

Because I think we can all agree sometimes the best case scenario in the moment is unfortuantly that a police officer shoots someone before they can do any further damage.

Now that may be because as a society how a black man was treated as a child led to him being jailled for something minor that led to more crime but in the short term that still means he was a danger.

As much as we need long term solutions (and we do) remember that not every time that a cop has to shoot is the cop wrong.

 

[ChrisFL]

In ways I have been posting (along with many others) like being a clear pattern of black people being more likely to end up with jail time for the exact same offenses as white people (again, this can also be tied to income, but we know that black people are much more likely to live in poverty--including growing up in poverty). And being more likely to have stiffer and logner sentences for the same things. and being more likely to be suspended from shcool for the same things than their white coutnerparts. And being more likely to grow up in poverty. And being more less likely to called in for job interviews if their name indicates theare likely black than if it is more "hite" sounding (lots of studies on this--it happens), etc, etc, etc and on and on---and I beleive most of it in unintentional and subconsios, but it is there (and, well, reading this thread, I am begining tothink, sadly, it might be less subconcious and less unintended than i have beleived).

Don't forget "For PROFIT" Prisons where they make more money to incarcerate people, and much more often those are black people

 

[NHdisneylover]

See the first thing I think of during this is how many of those was the officer right?

I saw another post about the number of white men shot by police and thought the same thing... how many of those cases was the officer right?

Because I think we can all agree sometimes the best case scenario in the moment is unfortuantly that a police officer shoots someone before they can do any further damage.

Now that may be because as a society how a black man was treated as a child led to him being jailled for something minor that led to more crime but in the short term that still means he was a danger.

As much as we need long term solutions (and we do) remember that not every time that a cop has to shoot is the cop wrong.

a very good point.

a couple of recent examples would be the recent Dallas situation--that man was killed by a bomb not shooting, but, yes, I think killing him whennegotiating did not work seems to have been the best course of action under the circumstances (which he clearly created). Likewise, very near my house a few weeks ago there was someone who looked armed and took many people hostage in a movie theatre (it seems to have made US news at the time). The person had what looked like and what he claimed were serious guns and also grenades (they were later determined to be fakes). He was shot and killed as part of freeing hotages safely. Sad for the young man, but he caused the situation and I do think police did the right thing there. In cases with active shooters and hostage takers where the person is a clear threat, no questions asked, it is often the best possible solution, sadly.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Don't forget "For PROFIT" Prisons where they make more money to incarcerate people, and much more often those are black people

Oh goodness YES. Honestly, if I could make one sweepign change to our country I think it might well be to get rid of for profit prisons and other companies which profit from having large prison populations. I think that is a gigantic issue.

 

[DopeyDame]

I didn't read the whole thread, just the last few pages. I just want to bring up one other aspect of BLM that I don't think has been addressed yet (abject apologies if I missed it!)

Part of what makes a life "matter" is what happens after one dies.
It is really obvious that the vast majority of society thinks that police lives matter, because there's no question that someone who shoots and kills a police officer is a bad guy and that he'll get the appropriate investigation and punishment. We as a society agree that police lives matter so much that there are whole laws written and passed that make killing a police officer an especially egregious offense - one that may even end in the death penalty. And that's how it should be, because indeed - #bluelivesmatter and pretty much everyone agrees that they do matter. When a nut job decides that police lives don't matter, and acts on that belief, he ends up being detonated by a bomb, and we as a society all agree that that's OK.

Compare that to the response after a black man is shot - we get to hear about his previous offenses, what he may or may not have done wrong at the time, and all the ways that it's really actually no big deal that he's dead.

It sure doesn't seem that the response between two deaths indicate that both lives matter equally. Which is the point. No one needs to be reminded that blue lives matter. Some people, sadly, do need to be reminded that black lives matter TOO.

 

[asta]

A persons life can vitally matter and I believe that everyone's does but that does not mean that they can't be responsible for actions that cause police to feel the need to react with deadly force.

 

[kamik86]

I didn't read the whole thread, just the last few pages. I just want to bring up one other aspect of BLM that I don't think has been addressed yet (abject apologies if I missed it!)

Part of what makes a life "matter" is what happens after one dies.
It is really obvious that the vast majority of society thinks that police lives matter, because there's no question that someone who shoots and kills a police officer is a bad guy and that he'll get the appropriate investigation and punishment. We as a society agree that police lives matter so much that there are whole laws written and passed that make killing a police officer an especially egregious offense - one that may even end in the death penalty. And that's how it should be, because indeed - #bluelivesmatter and pretty much everyone agrees that they do matter. When a nut job decides that police lives don't matter, and acts on that belief, he ends up being detonated by a bomb, and we as a society all agree that that's OK.

Compare that to the response after a black man is shot - we get to hear about his previous offenses, what he may or may not have done wrong at the time, and all the ways that it's really actually no big deal that he's dead.

It sure doesn't seem that the response between two deaths indicate that both lives matter equally. Which is the point. No one needs to be reminded that blue lives matter. Some people, sadly, do need to be reminded that black lives matter TOO.

The flip side of that however is that when a civilian kills a cop there is no way that was just an honest mistake or an accident. However if an officer shoots a suspect it could be:
1) Completely legitimate use of power.
2) A tragic mistake by a police officer that honestly isn't a great police officer but was not intending to commit murder but made a very bad call, one that maybe needs to be fired but shouldn't be tried and jailed for murder.
3) Someone with a vendetta against that person that should be jailed for murder.

So some investigation has to be done into which of these cases it was. Unfrotunatly that case does tend to shed light on the victium becasue the big difference between 1, 2, and 3, above really is what the victim was doing at the time.

In the case of the traffic stop gone wrong from what I understand of the evidence (which I admit is someone limitted) this was a case of a nervous overly jumpy cop that at a minimum needs more training and at worse is not suited to be allowed to even carry a gun. However I don't think he was intending on murder.

 

[CPanther95]

See the first thing I think of during this is how many of those was the officer right?

I saw another post about the number of white men shot by police and thought the same thing... how many of those cases was the officer right?

Because I think we can all agree sometimes the best case scenario in the moment is unfortuantly that a police officer shoots someone before they can do any further damage.

Now that may be because as a society how a black man was treated as a child led to him being jailled for something minor that led to more crime but in the short term that still means he was a danger.

As much as we need long term solutions (and we do) remember that not every time that a cop has to shoot is the cop wrong.

We have somewhere close to a million sworn law enforcement officers in this country, and it's likely that there are going to be some that make errors. It's also impossible to know for sure - regardless of how effective their training - how every officer is going to react under the pressure of every possible unique scenario. So as a society we are going to have to accept that accidents and some errors in judgment are going to occur. You can't have a million employees that all perform flawlessly.

So we have to be careful about any urge to make sweeping changes based solely on a handful of specific events. We have to make sure we don't put more officers at risk by making them take greater risks before they can use deadly force - or criminalize errors in judgment or accidents.

 

[pat fan]

People responding here are a small slice of society; by no means can be representative of our country, continent, culture, etc. as a whole.

That's true. Show an example of some good that has come from their protests. I'm asking seriously, because while I admittedly do not live in a large city, I have seen nothing to indicate there have been any real changes to anything due to their style of protesting. Maybe there have been changes, and if so, I'd like to know what they are.