Bash Our President Thread

[Laura]

why did I vote for this guy twice? I guess to keep a dem out of office. I thought the clinton admin was corrupt... bush and cheney are making me wish for the good old days of whitewater cigars, and vince foster.

Funny, the Dems are thinking of the good old days of past Republican presidents.

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20060212

 

[TCPluto]

why did I vote for this guy twice? I guess to keep a dem out of office. I thought the clinton admin was corrupt... bush and cheney are making me wish for the good old days of whitewater cigars, and vince foster.

Now there's a visual; dead guys, loan scandals and soggy cigars (left in the "humidor" too long)!

 

[eclectics]

Funny, the Dems are thinking of the good old days of past Republican presidents.

You know it's gotten real bad when you actually miss Richard Nixon!

 

[Laura]

In case you missed it:

Everyone agrees that it was of grave concern, that's why they were having the conference after all. I also caught him saying he couldn't say the levies would or would not be topped. He never mentioned breached.

Topped and breached are very different. Think about water splashing over the bow of your sailboat (topped) versus pouring through a huge gash in the hull (breached). Big difference.

With one, you're going to get wet; the other, you're going down.

I think the president knew the difference between topped and breached, they're light years apart in difference.

There's an authority that controls a great deal of federal money, given to it every year. The money is for mintenance and improvement. In the recent past, they show a great deal of money spent on projects unrelated to levy improvement. Sounds like we should be talking to these people as well. The position of levy members is a highly political process, not related to the federal government. I'm sure someone else can weigh in to tell us if they are elected or appointed, by the city or the state.

As well, the Army Corp of Engineers has been saying for years that more was needed to shore up the levies, to make them safer for the more devastating storms that were inevitable. Congress failed to act.

No one has seen a hurricane of this level, so no, the President couldn't have known the levies would breach.

I have no interest in blindly defending anyone in this, or any other matter. But we should at least keep to the facts.

I'm not sure who Bsnyder is, I'll check your link though.

Happy bashing as you distort the truth to fit your position! Let's go haters!

I am well aware of the difference between topping and breaching. However, for a city like New Orleans, neither really matters. Like dixipixi said, when the wall of water's coming at you, you're not exactly debating the finer points here.

Here's the interview transcript, September 1, 2005:

SAWYER: And in fact Mr. President, this morning, as we speak, as you say, there are people with signs saying help, come get me. People still in the attic, waving. Nurses are phoning in saying the situation in hospitals is getting ever more dire, that the nurses are getting sick now because of no clean water. And some of the things they have asked our correspondents to ask you, they expected, they say to us, that the day after this hurricane that there would be a massive and visible armada of federal support. There would be boats coming in. There would be food, there would be water. And it would be there within hours. They wondered what's taking so long.

BUSH: Well, there's a lot of food on its way, a lot of water on the way, and there's a lot of boats and choppers headed that way. Boats and choppers headed that way. It takes a while to float them. For example, [the USS] Iwo Jima is coming from the East Coast of the United States toward New Orleans. And people have got to know that there is a massive relief -- the most -- most massive federal relief effort ever in combination with state and local authorities. And there's a lot of help coming.

SAWYER: But given the fact that everyone anticipated a hurricane [Category] Five, a possible hurricane Five hitting shore, are you satisfied with the pace at which this is arriving? And at which it was planned to arrive?

BUSH: Well, I fully understand people wanting things to have happened yesterday. I mean, I understand the -- anxiety of people on the ground. I can imagine -- I just can't imagine what it's like to be waving a sign that says, "Come and get me now." So there is frustration. But I want people to know there is a lot of help coming. I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm. But these levees got breached, and as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded. And now we are having to deal with it and will.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509020001

So, they're discussing the slow pace of aid, and the difficulties of sending aid to the flooded city. Putting Bush's statement into context, he is basically saying nobody anticipated the flooding, which was the result of the levees having been breached. Topping, breaching, it doesn't matter how it flooded, it flooded. Bush was told the water may top the levees, so therefore flooding should have been anticipated and planned for by him. In any case, Bush just made himself look like a complete moron on national television. Anyone with any sense knew that those levees might not have held, whether they broke or were topped. And you didn't have to live in N.O. to know it.

But you can go on supporting this guy. Fewer and fewer people are buying all the president's spin. Which really gives me the warm fuzzies. I know there will always be die-hard apologists such as you. I'm not out to change your mind, because no matter what the facts are, you will twist them to mean anything you want them to.

 

[Sylvester McBean]

I never saw it coming, I've never lost so much respect or faith in any person in my life. I always figured Cheney was a tool. Bush stands in front of the country with a less than 40% approval rating. he then tells us that he doesn't care how we feel about the ports, he'll veto anything put in front of him. it makes me sick. and we still think this country is the greatest on earth. at this point, that's like being the prettiest waitress in a Denny's restaurant.

 

[TCPluto]

I am well aware of the difference between topping and breaching. However, for a city like New Orleans, neither really matters. Like dixipixi said, when the wall of water's coming at you, you're not exactly debating the finer points here.

Here's the interview transcript, September 1, 2005:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509020001

So, they're discussing the slow pace of aid, and the difficulties of sending aid to the flooded city. Putting Bush's statement into context, he is basically saying nobody anticipated the flooding, which was the result of the levees having been breached. Topping, breaching, it doesn't matter how it flooded, it flooded. Bush was told the water may top the levees, so therefore flooding should have been anticipated and planned for by him. In any case, Bush just made himself look like a complete moron on national television. Anyone with any sense knew that those levees might not have held, whether they broke or were topped. And you didn't have to live in N.O. to know it.

But you can go on supporting this guy. Fewer and fewer people are buying all the president's spin. Which really gives me the warm fuzzies. I know there will always be die-hard apologists such as you. I'm not out to change your mind, because no matter what the facts are, you will twist them to mean anything you want them to.

Your transcript added nothing to your position, sorry. Your still filling in the blanks with your hate of the president, and it isn't working. Except to say, you're making all of your hate loving friends happy.

A wall of water across the city wouldn't have been the result of a "topped" levee. The damage would have been relatively minor compared to the breach.

No where does he say that he was told the levees would breach. And that's your whole point; that he knew it and lied about it. Based on your evidence, you have failed again.

 

[TCPluto]

that's like being the prettiest waitress in a Denny's restaurant.

Oh my, that's just mean.

 

[Rafiki Rafiki Rafiki]

http://www.dubyamovie.com/

Love this!

 

[Sylvester McBean]

Oh my, that's just mean.

just an analogy. this admin has lost so much credibility with our country around the world. lies, lies, lies.

 

[TCPluto]

just an analogy. this admin has lost so much credibility with our country around the world. lies, lies, lies.

But when you get down to the facts, it's mostly people saying that he lied when he didn't. Not like Clinton who was caught lying and had to admit it on national television.

If he lied, so be it. I've seen no proof of it here, in any link posted as yet.

Still Redwings 2, sharks 0, 13 minutes left in the 3rd.

 

[Sylvester McBean]

Haliburton.

Bush may not openly lie like the idiot Clinton did. but he plays the ignorance card perfectly.

scene 5 of 'The 40 Year Old Virgin' is on here.

 

[dcentity2000]

TCPluto, babe! Are you aware that you are bumping a "word off the President" thread to the top of the Community Board?

Pity you can't restrain yourself

You should be aware that there is a "support the President" thread - you'd be more at home there

Oh well...

Rich::

 

[LastTycoon]

"I want to remind you all that in order to fight and win the war, it requires an expenditure of money that is commiserate with keeping a promise to our troops to make sure that they're well-paid, well-trained, well-equipped."

"God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear."—Los Angeles, Calif., March 3, 2004

"Secondly, the tactics of our—as you know, we don't have relationships with Iran. I mean, that's—ever since the late '70s, we have no contacts with them, and we've totally sanctioned them. In other words, there's no sanctions—you can't—we're out of sanctions."—Annandale, Va., Aug. 9, 2004

"This notion that the United States is getting ready to attack Iran is simply ridiculous. And having said that, all options are on the table."—Brussels, Belgium, Feb. 22, 2005

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."—Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005

"I think we are welcomed. But it was not a peaceful welcome."—Philadelphia, Dec. 12, 2005, on the reception of American forces in Iraq

 

[MzDiz]

I love threads with Rich in them.

 

[Laura]

Your transcript added nothing to your position, sorry. Your still filling in the blanks with your hate of the president, and it isn't working. Except to say, you're making all of your hate loving friends happy.

A wall of water across the city wouldn't have been the result of a "topped" levee. The damage would have been relatively minor compared to the breach.

No where does he say that he was told the levees would breach. And that's your whole point; that he knew it and lied about it. Based on your evidence, you have failed again.

Actually, I didn't say he lied. I've only said he looks more foolish than usual--you obviously don't understand my point. (Or, more likely, simply won't admit I'm right.) Look, LOTS of people thought the levees could break as well as be topped. Lots of people thought N.O. would flood. It's a big bowl, there's gonna be lots of rain, lots of wind driving the rain into the bowl, it's a no-brainer. Even if the levees held, the pumps could have failed.

You didn't have to be a civil engineer to have seen Katrina as a major impending disaster for the city. Topping was still of "grave concern" in the briefing. That still means "really bad". So the "nobody anticipated" part of Bush's statement is completely false, because lots of people thought it could happen. Bush does qualify the statement by saying "I don't think", which is apparently quite true! The president made himself look like a giant idiot when he made the statement regarding the flooding, and he just looks like an even bigger idiot now. Playing guitar while N.O. was drowning didn't help. Frankly, the president being stupid, incompetent and ineffective is worse than lying in situations like Katrina. Sadly, it seems we all expect lying from our politicians.

 

[dcentity2000]

Happy bashing as you distort the truth to fit your position! Let's go haters!

Says the man bumping a bash the President thread

Can't leave the majority alone, can you? Every post and whine you make is formulaic hatred towards the facts; they make you look a bit daft and you hate them for that.

It's interesting to note your, um, "debate" style. It follows these golden rules:

1. Insult
2. Attribute "hate"
3. Ignore
4. Goto 1

One day you will learn - probably not for a while though, you need to shift all that rage somewhere. Have you ever tried unlicensed boxing?



Rich::

 

[LastTycoon]

The videotape of a videoconference in which President Bush was told before Hurricane Katrina's landfall that the storm would be hugely catastrophic and that there was concern that New Orleans' levees might fail personifies the failures of this President.

It's quite apparent that President Bush is often baffled and bored by the demands of governing. He is a man who projects an image of strength and idealism, a bold and optimistic leader who stands by his priciples and stands up to the world. But within his own administration he is a passive man who floats along in his own world, cajoled and managed by subordinates who occasionally bluff and bully him into doing what they think is needed. This was rarely discussed before Katrina, mostly because the press too, seemed to have been seduced by Bush's larger-than-life image.

I suspect that most of Bush's supporters are aware of his limitations and love him anyway. In fact, I think his detatchment is part of his appeal. He seems as fed up as the rest of the country with the complexities of government and the world. He too, makes light of the eye-glazing details of Washington and rebels against them. He clings to the simple verities (Faith! Patriotism!) and insists that they are all he needs to guide the country.

This is a reassuring, self-indulgent fantasy and many people have bought into it. A real man with his heart in the right place doesn't have to understand all the complex stuff to be president! If he stands by the American dream he can lead our country bravely into the future and leave the details to others. With Katrina and the slow-but-steady implosion of Iraq, the fantasy has collapsed.

But many people will defend him still, because Bush plays the strong, innocent American for an audience that deeply wants to believe these same qualities characterize the entire nation. The brave cowboy as president. People especially love it that Bush never regrets anything. What could be more American? It is exactly how we like to see ourselves in the world. Tougher then the other kids on the block (but also charming and lovable!). America likes to see itself as uncorrupted by history, unencumbered by complexity and compromise. We do as we please, disregarding the complaints of friends and foes alike. How morally satisfying it is to confront the trouble makers of the world! Ah. The real America as commander-in-cheif, a white-hatted cowboy who never breaks down, never makes deals.

The real world, of course, won't cooperate with this nonsense, not in Baghdad, or in the capitols of Western Europe, or in North Korea, or Iran. The real world goes forward with it's own messy rules and fights and contradictions- and American frustrations deepen. Why can't our allies cooperate? Why can't the Middle East behave? Why isn't the world the way Bush says it is, the way he promised us it would be?

Reality is hard to ignore, and Bush's answer- yell terrorism and change the subject- seems to be losing it's charm. Bush told us that the complex problems of the world -and our own future- could be reduced to a simple moral struggle between a good America and an evil "group of folks."

Most Americans know better, I think, but it is such an attractive storyline. So simple and easy compared to the complexities of the world. Cowboys in action! No need to make messy compromises, no need to understand the amiguities of real life.

It would be nice if more people would stop falling for political slogans that reduce messy, complicated reality to corny cowboy stories and cartoon versions of faith and patriotism. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[Laura]

Here's another old Bing Crosby number that reminds me of Bush:

I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
But my legs ain't bowed, and my cheeks ain't tan
Well I'm a cowboy who never saw a cow
Never roped a steer 'cause I don't know how
And I sure ain't fixin' to startin now
Oh, yippee-i-o-ki-ay, yippee-i-o-ki-ay

I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
And I learned to ride before I learned to stand
Well I'm a ridin fool who is up to date
I know every trail in the Lone Star State
'Cause I ride the range in a Ford V-8
Oh, yippee-i-o-ki-ay, yippee-i-o-ki-ay

I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
And I come to town just to hear the band
I know all the songs that the cowboys know
'Bout the big corral where the dogies go
'Cause I learned them all on the radio
Oh, yippee-i-o-ki-ay, yippee-i-o-ki-ay

I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
Where the west is wild round the borderland
Where the buffalo roam around the zoo
And the indian make you a rug or two
And the old Bar-X is the Bar-be-cue
Oh, yippee-i-o-ki-ay, yippee-i-o-ki-ay

 

[cardaway]

It's interesting to note your, um, "debate" style. It follows these golden rules:

1. Insult
2. Attribute "hate"
3. Ignore
4. Goto 1

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[dcentity2000]

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yeah... I expect I do the exact same thing; we both need to clean up our acts.



Rich::