Attitudes Toward Teachers

[Pea-n-Me]

Some interesting articles on gender issues in teaching and nursing.

 

[friend of pooh]

Yes, in the state of PA, in order to teach you DO need a Master's Degree or a Master's equivilency after 4 or 5 years of teaching (that is directly from my twin sister who is a teacher and does have her Masters). Many school districts do pay for teachers to get their Master's however most businesses also pay for their employees continuing education.

I know that you said that you are only refering to your area, however the generalizations you are making is like saying that because you had a bad experience in Harrisburg, you'll never go to that city again because it's just all bad. Not all districts are like the one you are describing, so why group them all together?

Kudos to all of the great teacher's out there! I tell my dad (who is also a teacher) that I'd rather hang myself upside-down by my toe nails than be a teacher! LOL!!!

While in your sister's district they might need a masters, it is not a state requirement. However every 5 years we are required to take a certain amount of continuing education credits or graduate credits.

Anyway, I'm not saying that there are not bad teachers out there....there are. Just like there are bad Drs. and lawyers and accountants... But if you come into the situation with a chip on your shoulder and are always looking to jump on the teacher when a mistake is made, you will not have a pleasant experience. Teachers are in fact human.

 

[waltskids]

DH and I are both teachers ( DH has been teaching for 16 years and I just finished my 9th year). We don't let the 'teacher bashers' ever get to us because overall we love our careers and we know that at the end of the day we have done something to help our students.

 

[In a hurry]

LOL, I hate when I get off track from a thread! My comments about time management are related to the people who complain all the time about working evenings, and weekends, when they don't use their time in the school effectively. Everytime you turn around, they are chatting with others, rather than attending to their work. Kids are quiet, step into the hall and gossip for that time. Same goes for other breaks in the day. Multitasking is our friend. By doing so, I, and most of the older, more experienced teachers (all right, I'm talking about my poolmom girlfriends) are able to accomplish our jobs, and, as i stated earlier, enjoy our off time, too.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

When I was in university, I took the teacher training program (it was a concurrent program at the school I attended) which included quite a few courses on the psychology of learning. I got very interested in this and did a lot of extra research on the topics.

Then, as part of the training, I started spending a day a week in a school classroom as an observer and a helper. In general, I was not very impressed. Much of what went on was very different from the things I had learned about how children learn most effectively. (For example, children learn more quickly and retain more when their learning is self-directed, based on their own interests. Children also have different learning styles - one child may learn well by listening, another may need to read the information, another learns best by doing, for example.)

I also hated being in the teacher's break rooms and hearing how negatively they talked about the students. Really bothered me.

I decided after those experiences that I did not want to be part of this system but that I did want to homeschool (really unschool) my own children when they came along. And I was able to do that for quite a few years. When my marriage broke up, my children went into public school. They all did well and have all now graduated from university except one who is still attending. But I continued to have a wary attitude towards teachers. It is not that I think they are bad people, it is that they are part of a system that is not really geared to meet the needs of children and how they learn.

As a mother, my goal is to support and protect my children. If the teacher is meeting my children's learning needs in an effective way, that's great. If he or she is not, I'll be quick to speak up.

Teresa

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

Some interesting articles on gender issues in teaching and nursing.

That was great! Thanks for the links...I have always thought there were many issues that crossed paths in nursing and teaching. Most of my own research lately has been on teacher morale not gender issues but my experiences lately have changed my opinions about gender issues related to teaching.

The part that really stood out to me was the part that said the states with the highest pay had the highest # of male teachers.

I think more than non-supportive parents...I have very few parent issues. The last few years, my fellow teachers and I have become more frustrated with the lack of respect for teachers professionalism from our administrators and central offices. In my district (and others around our state) teachers who voice concerns about cirriculum, policies, etc.. are considered trouble-makers and not "team players."

This is a far greater concern to me than the occassional parent who thinks he/she can do my job far better than I can (I've maybe had 2 of these in the last 15 years).

 

[MM27]

Well, do you REALLY need a master's degree to teach? And I know in the not too distant past, teacher's were compensated for their educations. Even now, IF you do get a Masters, it is an automatic pay increase. So there is a clear benefit to that Masters degree, which is not always the case with many other professions. My niece went from $34K to $41k just by getting it. Not too shabby for having been out of college for only two years.
And in an area where the average income is only $28K, $58k IS a lot of money.

No all districts require it. In my district you have to have it a certain number of years after being tenured or you no longer get your increments. It's really a district by district thing. Mine pays 70% of Tuition only for up to two courses a year. The problem is, twice I received a letter saying that they had run out of money for the year and I would not be reimbursed. If they run out, you're just out of luck.

As a private citizen helping to fund a public school system, I may not know everything, but I know enough. And since I have family and friends who are teachers, I heard it from their mouths, so it's not just rumors.
And when the schools are falling apart, and there are no supplies, and the kids don't even have desks, and the teachers demand more everytime their contracts are up, then yes, I have a problem with it. That is what happens when over 80% of the budget goes for administrative and teacher salaries/benefits. And I hold the administrators feet equally under the fire.
A recent article in our local paper stated how so many of the experienced teachers were looking to leave because they have to pay towards their healtcare. And wouldn't it be such a terrible waste. (Basically, a publicity campaign has started because their contract is up for renewal this year.)
Later in the article it states how there are ONLY 700 applications on file instead of the usual 1000. Oh, the tragedy of it. Clearly, despite the "poor" pay and benefits, there are many who would gladly do so.

I make nothing even close to what administrators make. Everyone complains about teacher salaries, but you never hear complaints about principals and superintendents. The superintendent in my district makes $146,000 has the same benefit plan and gets perks up the wazoo

I will say that again, my teacher's program is awesome! In one of my classes we spent several weeks on teaching students techniques for studying. We had to do a project on it, writing lesson plans to incorporate studying techniques into the curriculum.

I had a wonderful education program in college and grad school as well. The problem is, when you sign a contract in a public school district, you are not always free to do whatever you think is best. One of the teachers in my building had something written on her evaluation this year about not following the reading program that the school adapted the way it is meant to be followed. In a perfect world you'd be able to do what you think is best, but that doesn't happen everywhere.

LOL, I hate when I get off track from a thread! My comments about time management are related to the people who complain all the time about working evenings, and weekends, when they don't use their time in the school effectively. Everytime you turn around, they are chatting with others, rather than attending to their work. Kids are quiet, step into the hall and gossip for that time. Same goes for other breaks in the day. Multitasking is our friend. By doing so, I, and most of the older, more experienced teachers (all right, I'm talking about my poolmom girlfriends) are able to accomplish our jobs, and, as i stated earlier, enjoy our off time, too.

I am someone that takes work home at night and on weekends. It has nothing to do with poor time management. I could do it all in school while the kids are working, like others do, but I refuse to do that because it is not what I'm being paid to do. There are teachers in my school that give the kids seatwork (busywork) while they do their planbooks or grade papers. They go out the door at the end of the day with their purse and car keys. The day I turn into that is the day I need to find another job.

 

[Stitchfans]

I think you find more negativity here because posters are "griping" about a specific case. Overall, I don't think most parents have a negative feeling towards all teachers.

I'm extremly greatful for the teachers who have taught my kids. Altho, we have had a few projects that made me wonder what on earth the teacher was thinking!

Didn't read all of the posts, but I agree with this person. In my case after working as a teacher's aid for 7 years and dealing with a few pure evil nut case teachers my attitude towards teachers has been somewhat tainted. Also working in the student cafeteria and seeing how SOME teachers deal with students really makes me cringe. All these experiences are all high school teachers.

As said though there are good ones and bad ones. Then from what I have seen some REALLY REALLY BAD ONES

 

[friend of pooh]

I had a wonderful education program in college and grad school as well. The problem is, when you sign a contract in a public school district, you are not always free to do whatever you think is best. One of the teachers in my building had something written on her evaluation this year about not following the reading program that the school adapted the way it is meant to be followed. In a perfect world you'd be able to do what you think is best, but that doesn't happen everywhere.

I was trying to think of a nice way to say that. While yes I learned tons when I was in college, the majority of it went out the window when I started to teach. Some districts tell you what to teach, when to teach it, and even how to teach it. There is little room to do "fun" things. There is often little creativity and even less wiggle room to move things around as you would like to see them done. I have even seen cases where teachers were given the exact worksheets that they were expected to use in their classes which meant that they were to use them even if they felt another activity would be better.

 

[In a hurry]

I was trying to think of a nice way to say that. While yes I learned tons when I was in college, the majority of it went out the window when I started to teach. Some districts tell you what to teach, when to teach it, and even how to teach it. There is little room to do "fun" things. There is often little creativity and even less wiggle room to move things around as you would like to see them done. I have even seen cases where teachers were given the exact worksheets that they were expected to use in their classes which meant that they were to use them even if they felt another activity would be better.

That would be horrid. I have the blessings of the admin. to teach in any manner I want. Since my classes have always done well, it is not questioned. That makes it easy to plan a day that is effective, and pleasant.

I learned far more from teachers I respected than courses i took. I'm good with that. theory sounds good, but results are so much more important. Children are wired to learn. It just takes tapping into it.

 

[GJM]

I didn't read all the posts but here is my experience.

My DS changed schools in lst. grade from NJ to SC in March - the schools are VERY different in SC, not in a bad way. The 2nd. week in the new school the lst. grade teacher told me he would get left back, he was behind in reading. We meet with the teacher and talked to her, she was insistant that he had to be on a reading level in NJ, they didn't give reading levels at that time. She finally looked in his file and then agreed with us. We talked about tutoring and summer school. She still felt and put this in a letter that even if he reached his reading level he would be left back.

We honestly felt like she didn't want to be bothered becaused he came in late in the year.

We had him tutored over the summer 3 times a week an hour each time, with a wonderful teacher. She gave him his reading level test and he past. We meet with the principal and he did go on to 2nd. grade.

2nd. grade has been the BEST!! He had an wonderful teacher, very calming, gave him tons of confidence. You could tell she loved her job, I couldn't say enough good things about her. My DS loved school, he was upset when it ended. I was wishing she would have gone on to 3rd. grade to teacher. My DS actually did better on the year end testing then was expected. He now loves to read and write stories.

I sit here and think what would have happen if we didn't fight for him, and just excepted what the lst. grade teacher said. I think there are wonderful teachers and people who just teach. I hope for 3rd. grade he gets another wonderful teacher.

His 2nd. grade teacher also would give all the homework on Mon. and it had to be return by Fri. She said she did this because alot of kids have other activities during the week, so they have a week to get it done. I love this.

I will say it amazes me how some of these teachers talk to some of this elementary school kids, it is horrible.

I have nothing against teachers, but his lst. grade teacher didn't even want to give him the opportunity, so we went to the principal with him being tutored and tested for 2nd. grade.

Sorry for rambling on - To all the great caring wonderful teachers - Thank You!

 

[jrmasm]

I was trying to think of a nice way to say that. While yes I learned tons when I was in college, the majority of it went out the window when I started to teach. Some districts tell you what to teach, when to teach it, and even how to teach it. There is little room to do "fun" things. There is often little creativity and even less wiggle room to move things around as you would like to see them done. I have even seen cases where teachers were given the exact worksheets that they were expected to use in their classes which meant that they were to use them even if they felt another activity would be better.

I think its that way for a lot of professions. You get out of school thinking you're really pretty smart. After a few years of experience and Real Life kicking you in the butt once or twice, if you're smart, you realize how little you actually know.

 

[Pixie Dust for Me!]

I initally PM'd this to the OP...and then decided to share with all.

Yes, I am the one that said I send my son's teachers a nasty gram...and let me tell you why. I don't see it as an "us vs. them" situation. What I do see is that teachers work very hard and, when your child has more than one teacher, they often fail to communicate about how much homework is sent home. Also, teachers often think of really cool projects...but then don't always stop to think if their project design is something a child (with limited parental involvement) can execute.

I'll give you some examples. My son was assigned to do a book report on a biography he was reading. He was allowed to choose the subject and he chose Walt Disney! Unfortunately, his teacher said that the book had to have a minimum of 150 pages. Working with the librarian at our county library, I found an age appropriate biography of Walt Disney that was 130 pages long. His teacher vetoed it saying that 150 pages was the minimum (even after I provided the information from the librarian that this was an age and skill appropriate book). So, he wound up reading a biography that was closer to 200 pages long that was designed for adults because the teacher wouldn't let him change his topic either.

He had 3 weeks in which to read the book, write chapter summaries, identify 3 vocabulary words per chapter and prepare a book report. The night before his FINAL draft was due (by the way, it had to be typed and all vocabulary words and their definitions had to be typed too...a change that came home that night), he was also assigned 125 math problems by his math teacher, was given an assignment to write a paragraph about "the influence of impressionism" in art and was given an assignment to write a short bio of a classical composer. All this was due the next day! So, yes, you can believe after watching my son work on homework for 3 1/2 hours (at the age of 10), I was furious and sent notes to all his teachers about their lack of coordination and how it punished my child and that I would never tolerate that again!

Every school is different and you (the OP and others) sound like someone who really wants to teach. Unfortunately, not all teachers are that way. Teachers are human and have good and bad personalities...are fair and unfair...and make mistakes. Unfortunately 4th grade was a BAD year for us teacher wise. I'll share with you that my son's math teacher gave him a "ZERO" for not having all 125 math problems done (by the way, they were all long multiplication). So yes, she got more than a "nasty gram!" I visited with the head of our school about her attitude and lack of compassion for a child.

I'm also VERY tired of getting "parent projects." Don't get me wrong, I believe that homework serves a useful purpose...it allows a parent to gauge for themselves where their child is having problems and them work collaboratively with the teacher and outside resources (if necessary) to address those challenges. But I am tired of making dioramas, scale models of the solar system (that must be painted, etc.), food pyramids on science project board (the kind that folds out) with real examples of food and a complete meal guide for 7 days, etc. My child is ONLY 10!!!! He's in school for 7 hours per day (with 20 minutes for lunch AND recess), takes piano lessons once a week and plays soccer twice a week. He shouldn't come home most nights stressed out about homework!

At the end of the school year, following the episode with the Disney biography and the math homework, I had a private conversation with my son's homeroom teacher and each of his other teachers about MY philosophy of homework....i.e., 4th grade, 40 minutes and 30 minutes of reading with an occassional blip of more homework. I also took it several levels higher. I took my argument all the way to the head of our school and the board of directors.

I then made a presentation to all of the teachers at our school about the need for comprehensive scheduling and working together on lesson plans (to keep the threads explored in one grade consistent with the next and to keep teaching methods and homework assignments consistent). I gave the parental perspective (with a panel of parents from varying grades) and paid for a child psychologist and an educational psychotherapist to come in and present as well.

Please understand, my job is to be an advocate for my son. Sometimes that means sending an occassional "nasty gram" or arranging a meeting to have a conversation about things with an adult in his life (teacher, coach, doctor, etc.).

I will say again, that I don't see it as an "us vs. them" situation. I think we are all working at the same goal -- well rounded children who are able to think critically and apply skills learned to problems. I just think that sometimes teachers -- and parents too -- get inside their own little "vaccuum" and forget about others.

I hope that this better explains things. Oh, and by the way, I fully expect that in 5th grade it will be 50 minutes of homework (usually maximum...though occassionally a bit more) with 30 minutes of reading. Also the "parent projects" such as designing a complete diorama of an "old west" town center will be stopped! Instead, the will become projects that were much more age appropriate and designed to have parental support rather than parent projects with child support! If they aren't...well, I'll be sending in more nasty grams, having conference with the teachers and administrators and taking my case to the Board.

BTW...one other thing I'd really like to accomplish is making sure the kids get more than 20 minutes for lunch and recess combined. I can't tell you how many parents are complaining about that one! It's unrealistic to expect a child (boy or girl) to sit still for 6 hours and 40 minutes and be productive. I don't think I could even accomplish that as an adult (and I know our teachers get 1 planning period and 40 minutes for lunch a day...so they aren't sitting still like the kids either!).

Just my 2 cents.

Karen

 

[castleview]

I will never understand why people get so upset about teacher salaries. I went to school with 2 guys that are now police officers in the town I live in. They started their jobs the same time I started mine. They are both making approx. $80,000 without overtime. I have a masters degree, which I paid most of myself and I certainly don't make that amount. Their benefits are equal to mine and they can retire earlier than I can.

I'll be the first to tell you that there are teachers that should not be teaching. I see it in my own school. I don't want to be lumped with them because I put 100% effort into my job every day.

I hate that "those teachers that don't have children..." line. I am a very effective teacher and I don't have kids. I don't assign large amounts of homework, only review of what we did during the day. I'm not big on at home projects, but the one or two that I do assign during the year are given with realistic expectations and enough time for completion.

I had a student this year whose mother said that to my principal at a conference because she was sick of me calling her for her child's behavior problems and disobedience towards other students in the class. She said "these teachers without kids need to learn patience." Sorry, not at the expense of the other students.

Here, here! DD's best teacher doesn't have kids and everyone wants their kids in her class. She is truly Mary Poppins!

I live in CT. Most towns in my area have gone from blue to white collar over the last fifteen years. I've noticed from sitting at town meetings regarding education, home building, commercial development...anything really - there are simply people who have a problem with other people making money - even if it's not a huge amount.

My parents taught when a teacher's salary required a second job to make ends meet. When CT passed the enhancement act, they had a big jump in salary. Many of the neighbors I grew with went from looking down their noses at my parents to being resentful. It was weird.

BTW, I am a former teacher and do believe inahurry has some good points. But I could tell you that a lot of parents carry their own baggage from their school years and think they're up against the same thing with their kids teachers. As a parent, there are times I have to keep myself in check too.

 

[In a hurry]

BTW, I am a former teacher and do believe inahurry has some good points. But I could tell you that a lot of parents carry their own baggage from their school years and think they're up against the same thing with their kids teachers. As a parent, there are times I have to keep myself in check too.

Not only their baggage, but it really just takes a really bad teacher for one kid to put you on edge for all the others through all the years.

Not fair nor right, but just the way it is.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

I initally PM'd this to the OP...and then decided to share with all.

Yes, I am the one that said I send my son's teachers a nasty gram...and let me tell you why. I don't see it as an "us vs. them" situation. What I do see is that teachers work very hard and, when your child has more than one teacher, they often fail to communicate about how much homework is sent home. Also, teachers often think of really cool projects...but then don't always stop to think if their project design is something a child (with limited parental involvement) can execute.

I'll give you some examples. My son was assigned to do a book report on a biography he was reading. He was allowed to choose the subject and he chose Walt Disney! Unfortunately, his teacher said that the book had to have a minimum of 150 pages. Working with the librarian at our county library, I found an age appropriate biography of Walt Disney that was 130 pages long. His teacher vetoed it saying that 150 pages was the minimum (even after I provided the information from the librarian that this was an age and skill appropriate book). So, he wound up reading a biography that was closer to 200 pages long that was designed for adults because the teacher wouldn't let him change his topic either.

He had 3 weeks in which to read the book, write chapter summaries, identify 3 vocabulary words per chapter and prepare a book report. The night before his FINAL draft was due (by the way, it had to be typed and all vocabulary words and their definitions had to be typed too...a change that came home that night), he was also assigned 125 math problems by his math teacher, was given an assignment to write a paragraph about "the influence of impressionism" in art and was given an assignment to write a short bio of a classical composer. All this was due the next day! So, yes, you can believe after watching my son work on homework for 3 1/2 hours (at the age of 10), I was furious and sent notes to all his teachers about their lack of coordination and how it punished my child and that I would never tolerate that again!

Every school is different and you (the OP and others) sound like someone who really wants to teach. Unfortunately, not all teachers are that way. Teachers are human and have good and bad personalities...are fair and unfair...and make mistakes. Unfortunately 4th grade was a BAD year for us teacher wise. I'll share with you that my son's math teacher gave him a "ZERO" for not having all 125 math problems done (by the way, they were all long multiplication). So yes, she got more than a "nasty gram!" I visited with the head of our school about her attitude and lack of compassion for a child.

I'm also VERY tired of getting "parent projects." Don't get me wrong, I believe that homework serves a useful purpose...it allows a parent to gauge for themselves where their child is having problems and them work collaboratively with the teacher and outside resources (if necessary) to address those challenges. But I am tired of making dioramas, scale models of the solar system (that must be painted, etc.), food pyramids on science project board (the kind that folds out) with real examples of food and a complete meal guide for 7 days, etc. My child is ONLY 10!!!! He's in school for 7 hours per day (with 20 minutes for lunch AND recess), takes piano lessons once a week and plays soccer twice a week. He shouldn't come home most nights stressed out about homework!

At the end of the school year, following the episode with the Disney biography and the math homework, I had a private conversation with my son's homeroom teacher and each of his other teachers about MY philosophy of homework....i.e., 4th grade, 40 minutes and 30 minutes of reading with an occassional blip of more homework. I also took it several levels higher. I took my argument all the way to the head of our school and the board of directors.

I then made a presentation to all of the teachers at our school about the need for comprehensive scheduling and working together on lesson plans (to keep the threads explored in one grade consistent with the next and to keep teaching methods and homework assignments consistent). I gave the parental perspective (with a panel of parents from varying grades) and paid for a child psychologist and an educational psychotherapist to come in and present as well.

Please understand, my job is to be an advocate for my son. Sometimes that means sending an occassional "nasty gram" or arranging a meeting to have a conversation about things with an adult in his life (teacher, coach, doctor, etc.).

I will say again, that I don't see it as an "us vs. them" situation. I think we are all working at the same goal -- well rounded children who are able to think critically and apply skills learned to problems. I just think that sometimes teachers -- and parents too -- get inside their own little "vaccuum" and forget about others.

I hope that this better explains things. Oh, and by the way, I fully expect that in 5th grade it will be 50 minutes of homework (usually maximum...though occassionally a bit more) with 30 minutes of reading. Also the "parent projects" such as designing a complete diorama of an "old west" town center will be stopped! Instead, the will become projects that were much more age appropriate and designed to have parental support rather than parent projects with child support! If they aren't...well, I'll be sending in more nasty grams, having conference with the teachers and administrators and taking my case to the Board.

BTW...one other thing I'd really like to accomplish is making sure the kids get more than 20 minutes for lunch and recess combined. I can't tell you how many parents are complaining about that one! It's unrealistic to expect a child (boy or girl) to sit still for 6 hours and 40 minutes and be productive. I don't think I could even accomplish that as an adult (and I know our teachers get 1 planning period and 40 minutes for lunch a day...so they aren't sitting still like the kids either!).

Just my 2 cents.

Karen

Wow...this is part of the reason I don't want to be a teacher like my dad and my sister. I understand that your job is to be the best parent for your child, but I also understand that it is the teacher's job to be the best teacher for your child. If I may ask, did your child work on the project a little bit every night? I really think that there was enough time to complete the assignment without having to rush to complete it on the last night.

I would be very upset and hurt if I received a 'nasty gram' at my work place especially if I'm doing my job. Would you send a 'nasty gram' to police officer who may have given you a parking ticket because you didn't agree with him/her?

The one thing in your post that I do agree with is you helping to fight for longer lunches/recess for the children. The school district where my sister teaches, the student's don't usually get recess and when they do, it's an organized/structured recess. It's sad that because of government regulations kids can't be kids anymore. Good luck!

 

[Pixie Dust for Me!]

Wow...this is part of the reason I don't want to be a teacher like my dad and my sister. I understand that your job is to be the best parent for your child, but I also understand that it is the teacher's job to be the best teacher for your child. If I may ask, did your child work on the project a little bit every night? I really think that there was enough time to complete the assignment without having to rush to complete it on the last night.

I would be very upset and hurt if I received a 'nasty gram' at my work place especially if I'm doing my job. Would you send a 'nasty gram' to police officer who may have given you a parking ticket because you didn't agree with him/her?

The one thing in your post that I do agree with is you helping to fight for longer lunches/recess for the children. The school district where my sister teaches, the student's don't usually get recess and when they do, it's an organized/structured recess. It's sad that because of government regulations kids can't be kids anymore. Good luck!

No, I wouldn't send a nasty gram to the police, mayor or anyone else for doing their job. In fact, I've been known to send thank you notes!

In my opinion, my son's teachers were NOT doing their job. Part of their job is to work collaboratively (it's in our school's mission statement) to ensure positive outcomes for all children! Dumping on homework is not collaborating and is not ensuring positive outcomes for children.

Our school is unusual...it's an "advanced (or gifted school that kids test into). It's private with a hefty tuition bill and is set up differently than most. For example, in 4th grade we have a homeroom teacher and then teachers for various subjects. His homeroom teacher is his reading/grammar/spelling teacher. He has another for math and science. Another for social studies/history/geography; another for drama; another for music; another for foreign language; another for PE; and another for art. I realize that it sounds more like a middle school or high school set up, but it is elementary school.

To answer your question, YES, he worked on reading the book (that was not age appropriate but was the only one that met his teacher's guidelines as to page limit), every night. He did chapter summaries at the end of every chapter and wrote out (in cursive) the vocabulary words and definition from the dictionary every night (and for a bit on 2 weekends, I'll add!). My son is a good student (not perfect...but what would be the equivalent of an A/B student.

What made me so angry (and why I sent the "nasty grams" which is my word for a terse note detailing exactly what upset me and requesting a formal meeting with the teachers involved) is that the FINAL night...where all we thought we had to do was to re-copy from our working draft to a FINAL draft, we found that we had to type it (and yes, I normally insist that he do the typing) and we had to type out all of the vocabulary words and definitions. On top of that his other teachers assigned an overwhelming load of work. After 3 1/2 hours of watching my son struggle (after dealing with 1 to 2 hours of homework every night for the past 2 weeks), I decided enough was enough and began my homework crusade! I did a lot of research, listened to varying opinions and talked with experts. Apparently, there is a lot of debate about whether or not homework is even appropriate for children (sorry, I think it is in manageable quantities). The "experts" who do believe that homework is appropriate state that 10 minutes per grade level plus a time for reading is the "gold standard" of what teachers should assign...and is what fueled my fight. I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's appropriate for a 10 year old child to have an average of 2 hours of homework Monday - Friday!

Sorry to take umbrage at your post, but I do firmly believe that a teachers JOB is to make sure that the homework assigned is do-able for a child and to collaborate with their peers (at least in our type of a school setting). I also believe that a teacher should be reasonable and listen to parents who offer helpful suggestions and who are trying to work through a problem. For example, my initial note to the teacher about the biography book was "I really appreciate that you are teaching the children that there are many different types of books and that you are exploring them. I worked with the librarian to find a book on my son's approved topic that is age appropriate and found 2 books; one that is far to short at 90 pages and the other that is a bit short at 130 pages. The only other options the librarian and I could locate were books written for an adult audience that met the page guideline limitation. Would you accept the 130 page book or would it be possible for my son to select a different biography? Could you offer some guidance? Thanks for your time." The reply I got back was, "he has to find a book that is 150 pages or more. No, he can't change topics." That's it!

I'm sincerely hoping that we will have better teachers next year. I think that we will! If not, well, I guess I'll be sending more "nasty grams" expressing my concern in writing and then following up with meetings.

I realize I didn't say in my post that my son worked on his book every night and I guess I should have been more detailed in that regard.

My only point is this. Teachers (like every human being) need to think about their actions. The good ones do more often than not. The bad ones don't and they don't care. Also, some schools operate from a perspective that more homework = smarter kids = more money (I guess). Unfortunately, I'm understanding that that is the culture at my son's school and I'm working hard to change that because there are many things about the school that I appreciate. Sure, I could move him to another school and I would if I felt alone in my quest to make homework manageable rather than stressful. I think I've made some strides and time will tell whether or not they hold.

Thanks for the words of encouragement about my new "recess" quest. Fundamentally, I'm a person that works to change things from the inside instead of just whining about it. I guess I shouldn't have "whined" here on the DIS boards...but I wanted to explain why I sent a "nasty gram" to teachers.

Like I said...it's not us vs them. It's about all of US working together to teach our children to think critically for themselves. I once heard a song by Harry Chapin called "Flowers are Red." It's about a little boy who goes to school and he begins to draw flowers in many colors. His first teacher tells him that flowers are always red and leaves are always green and that he doesn't need to use any other color. Later, his next teacher tells him that flowers come in many other colors and he should use every color in the rainbow to draw. Unfortunately, he can only draw flowers red and leaves green. Personally, I want my child to use all the colors in the rainbow and will fight with anyone who says differently!

 

[Pikester]

I initally PM'd this to the OP...and then decided to share with all.

Yes, I am the one that said I send my son's teachers a nasty gram...and let me tell you why. I don't see it as an "us vs. them" situation. What I do see is that teachers work very hard and, when your child has more than one teacher, they often fail to communicate about how much homework is sent home. Also, teachers often think of really cool projects...but then don't always stop to think if their project design is something a child (with limited parental involvement) can execute.

I'll give you some examples. My son was assigned to do a book report on a biography he was reading. He was allowed to choose the subject and he chose Walt Disney! Unfortunately, his teacher said that the book had to have a minimum of 150 pages. Working with the librarian at our county library, I found an age appropriate biography of Walt Disney that was 130 pages long. His teacher vetoed it saying that 150 pages was the minimum (even after I provided the information from the librarian that this was an age and skill appropriate book). So, he wound up reading a biography that was closer to 200 pages long that was designed for adults because the teacher wouldn't let him change his topic either.

He had 3 weeks in which to read the book, write chapter summaries, identify 3 vocabulary words per chapter and prepare a book report. The night before his FINAL draft was due (by the way, it had to be typed and all vocabulary words and their definitions had to be typed too...a change that came home that night), he was also assigned 125 math problems by his math teacher, was given an assignment to write a paragraph about "the influence of impressionism" in art and was given an assignment to write a short bio of a classical composer. All this was due the next day! So, yes, you can believe after watching my son work on homework for 3 1/2 hours (at the age of 10), I was furious and sent notes to all his teachers about their lack of coordination and how it punished my child and that I would never tolerate that again!

Every school is different and you (the OP and others) sound like someone who really wants to teach. Unfortunately, not all teachers are that way. Teachers are human and have good and bad personalities...are fair and unfair...and make mistakes. Unfortunately 4th grade was a BAD year for us teacher wise. I'll share with you that my son's math teacher gave him a "ZERO" for not having all 125 math problems done (by the way, they were all long multiplication). So yes, she got more than a "nasty gram!" I visited with the head of our school about her attitude and lack of compassion for a child.

I'm also VERY tired of getting "parent projects." Don't get me wrong, I believe that homework serves a useful purpose...it allows a parent to gauge for themselves where their child is having problems and them work collaboratively with the teacher and outside resources (if necessary) to address those challenges. But I am tired of making dioramas, scale models of the solar system (that must be painted, etc.), food pyramids on science project board (the kind that folds out) with real examples of food and a complete meal guide for 7 days, etc. My child is ONLY 10!!!! He's in school for 7 hours per day (with 20 minutes for lunch AND recess), takes piano lessons once a week and plays soccer twice a week. He shouldn't come home most nights stressed out about homework!

At the end of the school year, following the episode with the Disney biography and the math homework, I had a private conversation with my son's homeroom teacher and each of his other teachers about MY philosophy of homework....i.e., 4th grade, 40 minutes and 30 minutes of reading with an occassional blip of more homework. I also took it several levels higher. I took my argument all the way to the head of our school and the board of directors.

I then made a presentation to all of the teachers at our school about the need for comprehensive scheduling and working together on lesson plans (to keep the threads explored in one grade consistent with the next and to keep teaching methods and homework assignments consistent). I gave the parental perspective (with a panel of parents from varying grades) and paid for a child psychologist and an educational psychotherapist to come in and present as well.

Please understand, my job is to be an advocate for my son. Sometimes that means sending an occassional "nasty gram" or arranging a meeting to have a conversation about things with an adult in his life (teacher, coach, doctor, etc.).

I will say again, that I don't see it as an "us vs. them" situation. I think we are all working at the same goal -- well rounded children who are able to think critically and apply skills learned to problems. I just think that sometimes teachers -- and parents too -- get inside their own little "vaccuum" and forget about others.

I hope that this better explains things. Oh, and by the way, I fully expect that in 5th grade it will be 50 minutes of homework (usually maximum...though occassionally a bit more) with 30 minutes of reading. Also the "parent projects" such as designing a complete diorama of an "old west" town center will be stopped! Instead, the will become projects that were much more age appropriate and designed to have parental support rather than parent projects with child support! If they aren't...well, I'll be sending in more nasty grams, having conference with the teachers and administrators and taking my case to the Board.

BTW...one other thing I'd really like to accomplish is making sure the kids get more than 20 minutes for lunch and recess combined. I can't tell you how many parents are complaining about that one! It's unrealistic to expect a child (boy or girl) to sit still for 6 hours and 40 minutes and be productive. I don't think I could even accomplish that as an adult (and I know our teachers get 1 planning period and 40 minutes for lunch a day...so they aren't sitting still like the kids either!).

Just my 2 cents.

Karen

Good For You! I'm glad you stood up for your kid. I would have been just as POd as you were if my son had been given all that on top of doing the paper. What is really interesting is that my DS10 had to write a paper this year and he chose Walt Disney too. I think his teacher was more interested in teaching the students how to find the information they needed and how to correctly write a "bio" then being so strict about how many pages the resource book was.

 

[Pixie Dust for Me!]

Good For You! I'm glad you stood up for your kid. I would have been just as POd as you were if my son had been given all that on top of doing the paper. What is really interesting is that my DS10 had to write a paper this year and he chose Walt Disney too. I think his teacher was more interested in teaching the students how to find the information they needed and how to correctly write a "bio" then being so strict about how many pages the resource book was.

What a wonderful teacher! Wish we had him or her. Here's hoping for better next year.

BTW, I'm sorry if my "nasty gram" comment offended anyone. A bunch of moms and I thought it to be an apt term considering that each of our notes kept escalating throughout the year with our particular "team" of teachers. Believe me, they started out as "nice but concerned grams" then moved to "we really need to talk grams" and then to "I'm deeply concerned grams" and then to the "nasty-I've-had-it-with-you-and-we-need-a-formal-meeting-with-you-and-the-head-of-school-ASAP-grams!

Thanks.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

No, I wouldn't send a nasty gram to the police, mayor or anyone else for doing their job. In fact, I've been known to send thank you notes!

In my opinion, my son's teachers were NOT doing their job. Part of their job is to work collaboratively (it's in our school's mission statement) to ensure positive outcomes for all children! Dumping on homework is not collaborating and is not ensuring positive outcomes for children.

Our school is unusual...it's an "advanced (or gifted school that kids test into). It's private with a hefty tuition bill and is set up differently than most. For example, in 4th grade we have a homeroom teacher and then teachers for various subjects. His homeroom teacher is his reading/grammar/spelling teacher. He has another for math and science. Another for social studies/history/geography; another for drama; another for music; another for foreign language; another for PE; and another for art. I realize that it sounds more like a middle school or high school set up, but it is elementary school.

To answer your question, YES, he worked on reading the book (that was not age appropriate but was the only one that met his teacher's guidelines as to page limit), every night. He did chapter summaries at the end of every chapter and wrote out (in cursive) the vocabulary words and definition from the dictionary every night (and for a bit on 2 weekends, I'll add!). My son is a good student (not perfect...but what would be the equivalent of an A/B student.

What made me so angry (and why I sent the "nasty grams" which is my word for a terse note detailing exactly what upset me and requesting a formal meeting with the teachers involved) is that the FINAL night...where all we thought we had to do was to re-copy from our working draft to a FINAL draft, we found that we had to type it (and yes, I normally insist that he do the typing) and we had to type out all of the vocabulary words and definitions. On top of that his other teachers assigned an overwhelming load of work. After 3 1/2 hours of watching my son struggle (after dealing with 1 to 2 hours of homework every night for the past 2 weeks), I decided enough was enough and began my homework crusade! I did a lot of research, listened to varying opinions and talked with experts. Apparently, there is a lot of debate about whether or not homework is even appropriate for children (sorry, I think it is in manageable quantities). The "experts" who do believe that homework is appropriate state that 10 minutes per grade level plus a time for reading is the "gold standard" of what teachers should assign...and is what fueled my fight. I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's appropriate for a 10 year old child to have an average of 2 hours of homework Monday - Friday!

Sorry to take umbrage at your post, but I do firmly believe that a teachers JOB is to make sure that the homework assigned is do-able for a child and to collaborate with their peers (at least in our type of a school setting). I also believe that a teacher should be reasonable and listen to parents who offer helpful suggestions and who are trying to work through a problem. For example, my initial note to the teacher about the biography book was "I really appreciate that you are teaching the children that there are many different types of books and that you are exploring them. I worked with the librarian to find a book on my son's approved topic that is age appropriate and found 2 books; one that is far to short at 90 pages and the other that is a bit short at 130 pages. The only other options the librarian and I could locate were books written for an adult audience that met the page guideline limitation. Would you accept the 130 page book or would it be possible for my son to select a different biography? Could you offer some guidance? Thanks for your time." The reply I got back was, "he has to find a book that is 150 pages or more. No, he can't change topics." That's it!

I'm sincerely hoping that we will have better teachers next year. I think that we will! If not, well, I guess I'll be sending more "nasty grams" expressing my concern in writing and then following up with meetings.

I realize I didn't say in my post that my son worked on his book every night and I guess I should have been more detailed in that regard.

My only point is this. Teachers (like every human being) need to think about their actions. The good ones do more often than not. The bad ones don't and they don't care. Also, some schools operate from a perspective that more homework = smarter kids = more money (I guess). Unfortunately, I'm understanding that that is the culture at my son's school and I'm working hard to change that because there are many things about the school that I appreciate. Sure, I could move him to another school and I would if I felt alone in my quest to make homework manageable rather than stressful. I think I've made some strides and time will tell whether or not they hold.

Thanks for the words of encouragement about my new "recess" quest. Fundamentally, I'm a person that works to change things from the inside instead of just whining about it. I guess I shouldn't have "whined" here on the DIS boards...but I wanted to explain why I sent a "nasty gram" to teachers.

Like I said...it's not us vs them. It's about all of US working together to teach our children to think critically for themselves. I once heard a song by Harry Chapin called "Flowers are Red." It's about a little boy who goes to school and he begins to draw flowers in many colors. His first teacher tells him that flowers are always red and leaves are always green and that he doesn't need to use any other color. Later, his next teacher tells him that flowers come in many other colors and he should use every color in the rainbow to draw. Unfortunately, he can only draw flowers red and leaves green. Personally, I want my child to use all the colors in the rainbow and will fight with anyone who says differently!

Please don't think that you can't whine (or venting) on the Dis. You have every right to vent, but at the same time, I can disagree or agree with your post. Obviously you are very passionate about your child's education - I'm sure my sister (who teaches in an inner-city school district) would love to have more parents involved like you are.