Attitudes Toward Teachers

[Barbossa]

See that is the problem. It is the way people think things are because someone told them so. I teach in NEPA and while yes there are some people who have their jobs for the reasons you stated, not all of us are that way. And I am tired of hearing that we get paid too much. That average 58K salary is because of the vast numbers of teachers who have been around for 30 years. Also, did you take into account that many of those same teachers have their master's degrees and beyond and paid for all of it themselves (no reimbursement)? So for someone who has schooling beyond a master's degree and has been working for 30 years 58K is not really all that much.

Hear Hear. $58K isn't a lot for a person with a degree and many years of experience, not to mention the number of hours teachers have to work. Taking into account summer/spring/holiday time off, most teachers still average more than 40 hours/week for the entire year. Not to mention that many are required to provide teaching supplies on their nickel . Every colleague (and I mean every) of my DW is burnt to a crisp come May. Trust me, if it wasn't for summer vacation we'd lose 80% of our educators.

 

[DizBelle]

I'll just speak to our experience with homework...
IMO assigning pages of homework (let's say 50 math problems) doesn't seem to teach anything more than just assigning 10 problems would.
And also, in our experience, a lot of homework comes across as busywork. I understand that there might be some serious pedagogical reason for assigning "projects" (eek!) or pages of homework, but most of the time? As a parent and as a family? We've just gritted our teeth and gotten through it.

After young teachers have kids and they then experience life from the other side of the desk, they usually seem to have a keener appreciation of how hard it can be from the parents' point of view.

agnes!

Um, it's called "practice". To get good at something, you have to practice. The teacher has to formulate homework for the average student. There is no way they can tailor 24 different homework assignments for 24 different students to meet their individual needs or they would get nothing done and everyone's education would go down the toilet. They have to formulate for the average student. And they determined that, on average, it takes 50 problems worth of practice to understand the material.

According to you, the teacher teaches it in the class and no homework is needed because the teacher's description of the material should be enough.

 

[In a hurry]

Hear Hear. $58K isn't a lot for a person with a degree and many years of experience, not to mention the number of hours teachers have to work. Taking into account summer/spring/holiday time off, most teachers still average more than 40 hours/week for the entire year. Not to mention that many are required to provide teaching supplies on their nickel . Every colleague (and I mean every) of my DW is burnt to a crisp come May. Trust me, if it wasn't for summer vacation we'd lose 80% of our educators.

I think that is a nice salary. And no way I or any of my colleagues put in that much time. Anyone who is doing so, needs to work on their organizational skills. I do spend on school supplies, but I buy on sale, so the cost is minimal.

 

[In a hurry]

Um, it's called "practice". To get good at something, you have to practice. The teacher has to formulate homework for the average student. There is no way they can tailor 24 different homework assignments for 24 different students to meet their individual needs or they would get nothing done and everyone's education would go down the toilet. They have to formulate for the average student. And they determined that, on average, it takes 50 problems worth of practice to understand the material.

According to you, the teacher teaches it in the class and no homework is needed because the teacher's description of the material should be enough.

As I stated earlier. If a child knows the concept, 5 to 10 problems (average) is enough to enforce. If they don't know it, 50 is hell, and will only reinforce wrong procedures. Oftentimes it is 50, because that is what is on their worksheet.

 

[DizBelle]

As I stated earlier. If a child knows the concept, 5 to 10 problems (average) is enough to enforce. If they don't know it, 50 is hell, and will only reinforce wrong procedures. Oftentimes it is 50, because that is what is on their worksheet.

If they don't know it, they STILL won't know it after 5 to 10 problems. What do you suggest for the students that don't get it after lecture, 5, 10, or 100 practice problems? I don't think the teacher can take class time to spend with one child when the rest of the class is ready to move on. Perhaps a tutor is in order for this child.

 

[Barbossa]

I think that is a nice salary. And no way I or any of my colleagues put in that much time. Anyone who is doing so, needs to work on their organizational skills. I do spend on school supplies, but I buy on sale, so the cost is minimal.

Not in my DW's school district. Its staff is very good and very dedicated to their students. Trust me, they put in way more than 40 hours per week and it's not because they're not organized.

 

[In a hurry]

Not in my DW's school district. Its staff is very good and very dedicated to their students. Trust me, they put in way more than 40 hours per week and it's not because they're not organized.

lOL, okey dokey! I guess my district isn't nearly so dedicated!We manage to get our work done, spend time with our families, lounge the summer away at the pool, and still rank as one of the best districts in the state.

 

[Barbossa]

lOL, okey dokey! I guess my district isn't nearly so dedicated!

Not at all, it's just that my DW's district isn't so disorganized.

 

[MM27]

Hear Hear. $58K isn't a lot for a person with a degree and many years of experience, not to mention the number of hours teachers have to work. Taking into account summer/spring/holiday time off, most teachers still average more than 40 hours/week for the entire year. Not to mention that many are required to provide teaching supplies on their nickel . Every colleague (and I mean every) of my DW is burnt to a crisp come May. Trust me, if it wasn't for summer vacation we'd lose 80% of our educators.

I will never understand why people get so upset about teacher salaries. I went to school with 2 guys that are now police officers in the town I live in. They started their jobs the same time I started mine. They are both making approx. $80,000 without overtime. I have a masters degree, which I paid most of myself and I certainly don't make that amount. Their benefits are equal to mine and they can retire earlier than I can.

I'll be the first to tell you that there are teachers that should not be teaching. I see it in my own school. I don't want to be lumped with them because I put 100% effort into my job every day.

I hate that "those teachers that don't have children..." line. I am a very effective teacher and I don't have kids. I don't assign large amounts of homework, only review of what we did during the day. I'm not big on at home projects, but the one or two that I do assign during the year are given with realistic expectations and enough time for completion.

I had a student this year whose mother said that to my principal at a conference because she was sick of me calling her for her child's behavior problems and disobedience towards other students in the class. She said "these teachers without kids need to learn patience." Sorry, not at the expense of the other students.

 

[In a hurry]

I'll be the first to tell you that there are teachers that should not be teaching. I see it in my own school. I don't want to be lumped with them because I put 100% effort into my job every day.

I hate that "those teachers that don't have children..." line. I am a very effective teacher and I don't have kids. I don't assign large amounts of homework, only review of what we did during the day. I'm not big on at home projects, but the one or two that I do assign during the year are given with realistic expectations and enough time for completion.

I had a student this year whose mother said that to my principal at a conference because she was sick of me calling her for her child's behavior problems and disobedience towards other students in the class. She said "these teachers without kids need to learn patience." Sorry, not at the expense of the other students.

My best gf doesn't have kids, and she is very effective. But I'd be first to say that she just doesn't "get" the parent-child connection. She thinks she does, just like I thought I did before I had kids.

It is a hard line to walk. Just like that mom didn't understand you, you probably didn't understand her all that well, either.

 

[SpecialK]

I hate that "those teachers that don't have children..." line. I am a very effective teacher and I don't have kids. I don't assign large amounts of homework, only review of what we did during the day. I'm not big on at home projects, but the one or two that I do assign during the year are given with realistic expectations and enough time for completion.

I had a student this year whose mother said that to my principal at a conference because she was sick of me calling her for her child's behavior problems and disobedience towards other students in the class. She said "these teachers without kids need to learn patience." Sorry, not at the expense of the other students.

I was also an effective teacher before I had kids, but I became a better teacher after becoming a parent. My teacher friends feel the same way.

You teach with a different perspective after you become a parent. Doesn't mean you're a better teacher necessarily, just that you "get" the parents' point of view.

 

[MM27]

My best gf doesn't have kids, and she is very effective. But I'd be first to say that she just doesn't "get" the parent-child connection. She thinks she does, just like I thought I did before I had kids.

It is a hard line to walk. Just like that mom didn't understand you, you probably didn't understand her all that well, either.

I might believe that, except this particular parent has had issues with every teacher her child has had since kindergarten (those with children and without). She requested me. In fact, she put up a big stink a few years earlier when she requested me for her older child and her request wasn't honored. The teacher her daughter got was treated like crap all year, I think because of her not getting what she wanted.

I find it offensive that anyone would even say something like that. For all she knew, I could have been trying to get pregnant without success. Just seems a little coldhearted.
I think some people shouldn't be allowed to have children, but it doesn't mean I can just spout that out whenever I feel like it.

 

[agnes!]

I'll just speak to our experience with homework...
IMO assigning pages of homework (let's say 50 math problems) doesn't seem to teach anything more than just assigning 10 problems would.
And also, in our experience, a lot of homework comes across as busywork. I understand that there might be some serious pedagogical reason for assigning "projects" (eek!) or pages of homework, but most of the time? As a parent and as a family? We've just gritted our teeth and gotten through it.

After young teachers have kids and they then experience life from the other side of the desk, they usually seem to have a keener appreciation of how hard it can be from the parents' point of view.

agnes!

This was In a hurry's reply...

I agree. Doing 50 math problems incorrectly merely makes it worse. If you know how to do them, 5 or 10 for review is fine.

And I understood parents so much more when I became one! They really do make you think you know so much about kids when you are going through school. Probably 50% was accurate in my view.

I'll just speak to our experience with homework...
....

agnes!

And this is lfontaine's reply to my post...

Um, it's called "practice". To get good at something, you have to practice. The teacher has to formulate homework for the average student. There is no way they can tailor 24 different homework assignments for 24 different students to meet their individual needs or they would get nothing done and everyone's education would go down the toilet. They have to formulate for the average student. And they determined that, on average, it takes 50 problems worth of practice to understand the material.

According to you, the teacher teaches it in the class and no homework is needed because the teacher's description of the material should be enough.

Um, so glad that you are an expert in what I am thinking on this subject. All I said was that in *my* experience as a parent, assigning pages of homework or 50 math problems does not seem to help, as in... "assigning pages of homework (let's say 50 math problems) doesn't seem to teach anything more than just assigning 10 problems would".

You have mischaracterized what I posted.
Nowhere did I state that the teacher had to formulate completely different lesson plans for every single student in class.
Nowhere did I state that "the teacher teaches it in the class and no homework is needed because the teacher's description of the material should be enough."
Again, what I actually said was...
"assigning pages of homework (let's say 50 math problems) doesn't seem to teach anything more than just assigning 10 problems would." I did *not* state that no homework was needed.

As I stated earlier. If a child knows the concept, 5 to 10 problems (average) is enough to enforce. If they don't know it, 50 is hell, and will only reinforce wrong procedures. Oftentimes it is 50, because that is what is on their worksheet.

If they don't know it, they STILL won't know it after 5 to 10 problems. What do you suggest for the students that don't get it after lecture, 5, 10, or 100 practice problems? I don't think the teacher can take class time to spend with one child when the rest of the class is ready to move on. Perhaps a tutor is in order for this child.

From the beginning I stated I was only speaking to our family's experiences with homework overload.
And for the students who already understand the subject-matter, why should they have to do the pages of homework or the 50 math problems for every day they have math class?
What does doing all that homework teach any of the students? I know the amounts of time students are supposed to be spending on their homework according to guidelines, but in my experience those guidelines are a pathetic joke. Ask students how much time they actually spend on homework and the answers would probably shock you. In our school system it is *hours* every day and *that* is for all the students at all levels. I honestly don't know how students today have any kind of life outside of class + homework.

I just don't see the value of repetition for repetition's sake. I thought rote learning and memorization had supposedly been discredited in modern educational literature.

And to the poster who hates the "when teachers become parents" line...what I said was that...
"After young teachers have kids and they then experience life from the other side of the desk, they usually seem to have a keener appreciation of how hard it can be from the parents' point of view." I did not disparage all kid-less teachers, I just said that after becoming parents they then seem to have more of an appreciation how hard it can be from the parents' side of the equation.

I think practice makes permanent, not "practice makes perfect". The kid who doesn't understand the class, after all that fruitless homework, really doesn't understand the subject now. The kid who hates English really hates it now. And maybe the kid who got it in class, wonders why they have to spend all that time doing homework.

It was so sad, when school was over this year my child said "now I'm going to actually have time to read".

agnes!

 

[In a hurry]

lfontaine, if a child is still missing it after that, then, yes, I do spend time with him/her to teach the principle in another manner. That is what I'm paid for. Having them do 50 problems they don't understand sure doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

agnes, I hope I didn't add to badly to your consternation!

 

[spima3]

Also, did you take into account that many of those same teachers have their master's degrees and beyond and paid for all of it themselves (no reimbursement)? So for someone who has schooling beyond a master's degree and has been working for 30 years 58K is not really all that much.

Well, do you REALLY need a master's degree to teach? And I know in the not too distant past, teacher's were compensated for their educations. Even now, IF you do get a Masters, it is an automatic pay increase. So there is a clear benefit to that Masters degree, which is not always the case with many other professions. My niece went from $34K to $41k just by getting it. Not too shabby for having been out of college for only two years.
And in an area where the average income is only $28K, $58k IS a lot of money.

I think that people feel that they can complain about teachers and schools because they think they know all about them. Afterall, didn't everyone go to school?

As a private citizen helping to fund a public school system, I may not know everything, but I know enough. And since I have family and friends who are teachers, I heard it from their mouths, so it's not just rumors.
And when the schools are falling apart, and there are no supplies, and the kids don't even have desks, and the teachers demand more everytime their contracts are up, then yes, I have a problem with it. That is what happens when over 80% of the budget goes for administrative and teacher salaries/benefits. And I hold the administrators feet equally under the fire.
A recent article in our local paper stated how so many of the experienced teachers were looking to leave because they have to pay towards their healtcare. And wouldn't it be such a terrible waste. (Basically, a publicity campaign has started because their contract is up for renewal this year.)
Later in the article it states how there are ONLY 700 applications on file instead of the usual 1000. Oh, the tragedy of it. Clearly, despite the "poor" pay and benefits, there are many who would gladly do so.

 

[Minnie_me]

Well, do you REALLY need a master's degree to teach? And I know in the not too distant past, teacher's were compensated for their educations. Even now, IF you do get a Masters, it is an automatic pay increase. So there is a clear benefit to that Masters degree, which is not always the case with many other professions. My niece went from $34K to $41k just by getting it. Not too shabby for having been out of college for only two years.

Yeah, you REALLY need a Master's Degree to teach, at least in my state and many others. I'm a 20+ year veteran teacher who makes about $58K. I don't think that's exorbitant. I make much less than my friends in their 30s who work in the business world, take hour-long lunches, get mileage and/or company cars, and only went to college for 2-4 years.

But I don't mind. I love love love my job, and wouldn't trade it for anything. Although right now, I could really use a backrub! I was just told that I'm changing classrooms next year. I have to pack up my room, BY MYSELF, move everything to the new room (with some help from custodians) and set it all up by myself. When I asked my principal when I could start moving in, she told me "Friday" -- that's my first day of summer vacation.

 

[spima3]

Yeah, you REALLY need a Master's Degree to teach, at least in my state and many others. I'm a 20+ year veteran teacher who makes about $58K. I don't think that's exorbitant. :

Well for your state you do, not the case in every one and again: IN OUR AREA, which ISN'T yours:

In the not too distant past, teacher's were compensated for their educations.

Even now, IF you do get a Masters, it is an automatic pay increase. So there is a clear benefit to that Masters degree, which is not always the case with many other professions.

My niece went from $34K to $41k just by getting it. Not too shabby for having been out of college for only two years.

And in an area where the average income is only $28K, $58k IS a lot of money.

I make much less than my friends in their 30s who work in the business world, take hour-long lunches, get mileage and/or company cars, and only went to college for 2-4 years.
But I don't mind. I love love love my job, and wouldn't trade it for anything. :

Well, like any profession, if you think another position has great income potential and perks, then you are certainly capable of persuing that instead. Since you love love love your job, then that is also a benefit to you and your students.
However, my OP was why the teachers in OUR AREA don't get respect. Cherry picking parts of it to make a personal point still doesn't negate that.

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

Ditto...in my state (as well as most others) master's degrees are required. And no the degree isn't paid for by the state. When I got my master's degree my husband worked 2 jobs to help me pay for my degree. At the time, with the cost of higher education, I recouped my tutition and book costs after about 2 1/2 years. The pay increase from a BA to and MA is around $5k for the year. Now, with tutition constantly on the rise, it takes young teachers about 4 to 5 years to recoup tutition and book costs.

I'm not sure where the pp got his/her figure about 80% of costs going to teachers salaries but I'd like to know what the figure is if you factor out administration salaries.

Here is an avenue back to the original topic Do teachers not get any respect because it is a job primarily held by women?

I have long believed that is why there is such a huge difference between administrative salaries and teacher salaries. The most I will ever make in the classroom--$65k...my principal (former PE teacher) $109k.

 

[friend of pooh]

Not all districts in this area have that big of a jump. Your niece is just lucky I guess. Yes a Master's degree gets you a pay increase but is costs $$$$ to get that degree. If teachers didn't further their education, people would complain about that. Can't please everyone.

I love what I do but there is only so much bashing that a person can take. For those not in this area, the previous poster's views are the norm here and actually one of the nicer I've heard. Many people are questioning if they want to stay in this profession for that reason.

My response is always, if we have it so good, feel free to go back to school to become a teacher.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Did you notice this "us vs. them" in your classes? I sure did and it really ticked me off. I constantly heard "parents this and parents that" when I was taking my graduate classes. I was always the jerk in class presenting the other side of the argument.

I think it's sad all around. We're all here for a common goal, but that tends to get lost in the real world.

My Master's program is amazing. The professors frequently bring in parent panels to talk to us about life from their perspective. For the sped program, we are required to take a class to teach us how to collaborate with parents. Every so often a guest speaker teacher will exhibit some of this "us vs. them", but it is usually more along the lines of summarizing their average experience. Yesterday we had a teacher from an urban school and she explained how many parents do not speak english and do not want to, how the culture of pverty tends to devalue education benefits. This is as close to "us vs. them" as we've gotten in our program..

We TRIED to work with our DD K-garten teacher. She told us that DD was wiggling too much and not paying attention. So we signed a behavior contract, we talked to the teacher frequently and exchanged emails about how to overcome this "distraction". But when the teacher sent home a list of URLs for ADHD websites so that we could "look into it, because she shows many of the symptoms" we were shocked.

1- it's illegal for a teacher to even suggest such a thing.
2- our daughter is SO not ADHD
3- gifted children often show THE EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS as ADHD children

I have never been told that it is illegal to share our suspicions of a disability with parents, in fact, it is encouraged. The majority of children with disabilities are identified by teachers. I agree htat it is not uncommon for children who are gifted to be diagnosed with ADHD, but it is frustrating when parents won't even consider the possibility- just as it is frustrating for you when the teacher wouldn't consider the possibility they were gifted. I observed in a classroom where the child was diagnosed with ADHD that was untreated at the request of the parents. He was very bright, and the teacher did all she could, but he could not focus to save his life. It had a real negative impact on his grades. Did he know the material? Most of the time he did. However, if he can't sit down to do his work, he is going to be eaten alive by the secondary and post secondary education system. He'll also have a hard time maintaining a job.

I believe that it ends up being an us vs them mentality because the good teachers will never admit that there are bad teachers, and that parents have a right to vent about the bad teachers.

I disagree. As part of our Master's program, we have to spend observation and teaching hours in various classrooms. I have already completed over 100 hours, and I will do an additional 400 next semester before my student teaching internship. Several of our students have ended up with bad mentor teachers, and the professors will admit that they are out there. I hear the teachers all the time talking about who the ineffective teachers are, they will tell you in a heartbeat. It is like every other profession, we recognize those that are not doing what they should.

Two of my best friends are teachers, and I see how hard they work and how much they care. We travel to Disney with one of these friends, and I always find myself waiting for her in the gift shops as she takes time to find just the right souveniers for each of her students.

I was observing/teaching in a third grade classroom last semester. We reviewed letter writing by having them write a letter to Mickey and Friends. I took the letter with me and my friends in the DDCT parade took a picture with it in Guest Relations after the parade. The kids all got goodie bags with beads from P & P, DVC stickers, and a copy of the picture signed by Mickey when I returned. Being a CM has its advantages .

My son's learning differences are with math, writing and lack of organization skills. He is the quiet kid who never likes to ask for help for fear of looking stupid and tries to just blend in. An assignemnt that may take a typical child say 30 minutes takes my son 3 to 4 times as long 1hr and a half to 2 hours as observed by myself. He works on things himself and I will only step in when he asks for help or I can see he is really struggling. Most times he tells me he can handle it. Forget long projects he just can't organize it all in his head and panics. This has been consistant since he was young and I either get the teachers who I can talk to and help or those that say too bad so sad, my classroom, my rules.
.............................................................................
My point is to understand that the project you put hours into coming up with might not be as easy for some kids as it will be for others and then what is the lesson? Listen to the parent and don't automatically assume they are just trying to tell you how to do your job instead assume they just want to help their child succeed and need you as the expert in teaching to help find a solution.

I always do my best to modify assignments for children whenever possible, and try to take those things into account. When I create a project, I typically will incorporate multiple content areas, so while it is a big assignment, it is being used for a grade for several subjects. I also give students class time to work on it and will help when at all possible. Without knowing your son, I would like to make the comment that one of the things we have talked a lot about in my sped course this summer is teaching students self-advocacy. When tsudents get to a certain age, they need to learn how to ask for hel and let the teacher know what accommodations they need. This is difficult for many students with disabilities, especially during adolescence when they don't want to be different, so hopefully somebody is working with your son on this.

I encourage parents to talk to me and give me feedback. Like I said, reading these threads has made me realize that I cannot assume that parents will know the purpose behind a project or assignment, I need to communicate that to them. I do not automatically assume that every parent who has a concern is out to get me. I welcome feedback, I can't help them if they don't tell me what is wrong. What I am referring to is the people who seem to set themselves up as adversaires before they eveer talk to the teacher, before their child even steps foot in the classroom. They expect us to fail their child and are ready to do battle with us before they even know us. That is where I have a problem.