Article on College Debt- so true it makes me cry

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Some employers expect you to pay your tuition all upfront and the will reimburse you at the end of the semester (this is how my DH's former job worked). ALWAYS read the fine print when seeing that jobs have tuition assistance.

Everything is negotiable. This WAS my hubby's companies policy until more employees began using the private local university. Since it was most convenient to the working engineer (remote programs presented a hardship for many) and since they pay regardless of where you are educated..it was requested and the policy changed.

 

[Caradana]

LuluLovesDisney,

As another grown-in-NJ girl, I can empathize. Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Don't feel like you have to legitimize your wedding choices to anyone except yourself, your BF and your family. And don't be afraid to mix it up. I'm having the huge cathedral and then mini-hot-dog appetizers. I'm having black bridesmaids dresses and an all-white reception, orchids and pearls. I'm having a limo to go two blocks but a $700 DJ instead of a $5000 band. Amen to tradeoffs.

 

[mking624]

That would be okay except we now have some whiners (the article) who say that they had no choice blah blah blah. They made their bed--now they have the consquences.

TWO of the three moved to a NEW area that was high cost of living.

The third remained in an area that was high cost of living.

My hubby is 10 years into his career, makes good money and it would be a strain to relocate to the DC area.

Hard to respect someone who complains as though they are a victim of their circumstance.

My point is that no one here is complaining and yet both sides are finding the need to prove themselves and try to explain their reasonings. That shouldn't even be needed. There's no need for lectures from anyone on college, student loans...or weddings. I'm sure many people had enough of that growing up with everyone setting expectations up for us...let's not do it to each other, too. This is why I'm saying to respect each other and our decisions. After all, my husband's decision to take out a student loan hasn't directly affected anyone's financial situation except for ours.

Everything is negotiable. This WAS my hubby's companies policy until more employees began using the private local university. Since it was most convenient to the working engineer (remote programs presented a hardship for many) and since they pay regardless of where you are educated..it was requested and the policy changed.

This is HIGHLY dependent on who you're working for. My husband's former job was for a major corporation...and what your husband experienced with his job most certainly would not have happened at this particular company. There are enough people taking advantage of it that they don't need to bother to change for anyone. So I think we need to be careful with stating that "everything" is negotiable...maybe some things are, but "everything" encompasses literally everything...and that's not always the case.

 

[Belle5]

In Florida they have gone so far as to require that CC classes have the same registration number (whatever that code # is called!!) and credits must transfer.

Usually upper division coursework is not transferrable, but lower division certainly is.

They even have tracks--that when you start CC--you know you are transfering to ABC state University once you get your Associates...all a very smooth process.

Florida may have a questionable primary and secondary education--but I do appreciate their post secondary education and for most students--as long as you meet minimal criteria--you can even get your tuition paid for and less that you have to worry about cost wise.

I know not all states have this--but it makes me darn proud of Florida are trying to work with the students instead of against them.

We have a similar situation in Texas. The community college near my home in particular is one of the top rated community colleges in the country. All of the professors have phd's and many also teach at nearby universities. The standards are very high at this school. Many students come home from their big-name universities in the summer and take a class or two at our community college and comment how much more challenging the classes are at the community college. I know this is not always the case but I am glad it is in ours.

 

[Michie]

I recently posted a thread on the community board regarding a friend of mine who is 150,00 in debt from sending her DD to college. Now she took out these loans with the agreement from her DD that she would help pay on the loans, which she is not

I think it happening way too often people are attending schools, just to keep up with the Joneses and are not taking into consideration if it will fit into their budget or not.

 

[disykat]

After all, my husband's decision to take out a student loan hasn't directly affected anyone's financial situation except for ours.

.

Nor are you asking us to feel sorry for you because of your choices. This post was all about how sad we should be for the poor students whose lives are affected negatively by the loans they took out - apparently not realizing that they might have to actually sacrifice to pay them back.

Those of us who are responding with what you seem to think is judgement, are simply pointing out that people are responsible for their own choices and sometimes there are other choices available. We simply disagree that college debt is something to cry over.

 

[moonvine]

Yep, this is one of the myths that keeps students out of the community colleges: Don't both to go. You'll just have to repeat everything at the "real university" anyway. I'm only really familiar with the two community colleges in my area, but I know that they offer a wide variety of programs:

Some of the programs are terminal degrees or certificates; that is, the student earns just that one degree, and that's it. Examples might include something in auto mechanics or heat/air conditioning. It might not even be a degree -- it might be a certificate. The student enters with the intention of completing that program only. This is what MOST students at the community college do.

However, the community colleges also offer a transfer program, in which the students take their first courses at the community college, then transfer to a 4-year school. They enter the community college already knowing that they intend to spend two years there, then go to ____ University afterward. If the students follow the prescribed coursework, they will not lose credits. It's set up that way.

There is a core curriculum at my community college that will transfer directly. Mostly English and humanities, with some math classes and quite a few science classes. Unfortunately, most of the Computer Science classes I have taken transfer as general education credits. I would not "lose credits", however, I would have to re-take almost all the Computer Science classes I have taken if I wanted them to count as Computer Science classes. And I only lack one class to complete my AAS in Computer Science. I think this would be a very, very difficult way to complete a degree - taking a majority of Computer Science and Math classes every semester with no easier (for me, anyway) Humanities, English, etc courses. It doesn't matter to me so much as I didn't plan on transferring out anyway. As I said, I already have a Master's degree in another subject. But it would have been very bad had I been a new freshman intending to transfer into the CS program at the University of Texas.

 

[mickeyfan2]

I have to ask this question, though, (again, not a personal attack) Would you have enjoyed 8.95 chicken if you knew your relatives would be complaining, talking behind your back, or making certain uncontented facial expressions the whole night, and most likely in future weeks to come? Could you have made the same wise financial decision if you had a family that would most definitely not enjoy that evening? (Not my immediate family, w/ the exception of my SIL's maybe, but my extended family) The fact that your family and friends were content and happy with your celebration probably had a lot to do with how much you enjoyed your special day. I would feel looked down upon instead of special and admired like a bride should feel. I think it is wonderful that other families are supportive of small weddings, but I know mine wouldn't be and it's a hard decision to basically postpone my wedding for them.

Yes, since it was getting married to DH that I wanted not the praise of far our family members. When you are celebrating your 50th anniversary will anybody care how much your meal cost? If you want your family members to talk, just get divorced. The cost of the wedding meal has no bearing on the stability of your marriage.

 

[arminnie]

Originally Posted by arminnie
I agree with that. I had so many friends whose parents made them stay home and go to community college. I went off to school and ended up with what would be about $30,000 worth of debt in todays dollars, but I made SO much more money than they did afterwards too - same degree, same type of work.

I don't think anyone has suggested that community college degree should be the ultimate goal -- just an inexpensive starting place for those who can't afford or aren't ready for a full-scale university. In my area community colleges offer only AA or AS degrees, so I wouldn't expect those graduates to make the same money as a person with a BA or a BS.

My husband earned an associate's degree in drafting from a community college (thought he wanted to be an architect), then he went on to a state university, where he earned a BS in engineering. Because he now has the bachelor's degree, employers wouldn't pay any attention to the AS -- it's only the last degree that matters.

I totally agree that it's the last degree that counts.

Sorry I didn't make it clear that the community (junior college once upon a time) in my area (Arkansas) was upgraded to a four year school just before my friends and I graduated from high school. So that is where they ended up getting their four year degrees, and part of why the degrees were not very highly regarded.

California in particular has excellent 2 year colleges. I know people who went for two years to the local cc and then finished at Stanford.

I just have this pet peeve about really, really smart kids ended up at really bad colleges (public, private or community).

 

[disneysteve]

The cost of the wedding meal has no bearing on the stability of your marriage.

I would also add that the cost of the meal has no bearing on the success of the affair. We have been to some very pricey upscale weddings that were lousy. And we have been to some very modest affairs that were wonderful. Spending lots of money doesn't guarantee a nice, memorable affair.

The best example I can give is a black tie formal wedding we attended in Maryland, outside of DC, certainly an upscale area. Everything was very ritzy, and I'm sure it cost a bundle, but it is the one and only time we ever left a wedding and went directly to a restaurant because we were all starving. We would have much rather have attended a firehouse wedding with some good home cooking.

You need to do what is right for you, not what you need to do to impress and please others. JMHO.

 

[NMW]

500K in student loans....for *one* person? Wow, that's the most I ever heard. Typically, lawyers and physicians really don't make the kind of money it takes to pay off huge loans like that during their first years in practice. In fact, many take years to pay down loans that are slightly over 100K. Funding a lifestyle that includes gigantic houses, expensive cars and luxury vacations can also be a huge financial drain.

Remember, because one lives in a such a house doesn't necessarily mean that they can truly afford it . And even if they can afford the lifestyle, the majority of physicians and lawyers never accumulate serious wealth because they often feel pressure from society to "live up to a certain image". I'm not saying that this is your brother at all, just speaking of lawyers and docs in general.

Have you ever read The Millionare Next Door....an older book, out ten years by now I think, but a great read. In their research the authors found that of the millionaires in this country at the time...1996 I believe, only 8% of all millionaires held degrees in law and 6% in medicine. In other words, the authors found that while most docs and lawyers typically earn very large incomes throughout their lifetime relative to the majority of the population....guess what? They also spent a whole heck of a lot of it.

The reason why my brother owed $500,000 was not just because of his private college loans, although they were high. It was because he borrowed 100% of the money for law school, including money for rent. My parents paid nothing, I mean nothing towards law school. By that time, my younger brother was in college and my parents really couldn't swing it. I don't think he is the only one to do this. I remember my mother saying that he could have even asked for the money to buy a car if he needed one for law school! I think lenders may consider those going to grad school a "good" risk.

Also, the law firm that hired him had some kind of thing where they payed some of his law school loans based on performance/billable hours, things like that. He also got some kind of big bonus thing when he made partner in the firm last year. I remember my mother saying that he was using it to pay off the last of his loans. He has been a lawyer since 1998. They didn't do anything about his college ones though. So, I suppose that helped pay some of the debt. My sister-in-law went into the medical research field and doesn't actually "practice" medicine. She has said that she makes more money than people she went to medical school with that went into surgery. I think it depends on the filed you go into. I also have no idea how much money she owed in loans. Her family is fairly wealthy and they may have paid more of her schooling than my parents did, but I know she had SOME school loans to pay!

Also, they have no children and both work ALL the time.

I have never read the book, but it sounds interesting. It's funny, my other brother always says that he hates where our brother lives because every one is so snobby! Their next door neighbor has some of kind of liscence plate letting people know he's a plastic surgeon. You may have a point about the spending the large income thing!

 

[NMW]

Yep, when I was in college people from those areas came to our state schools IN DROVES because our state universities were better quality and lower cost than their in-state schools. I'd estimate that 10-20% of the people in my dorm were from up North.
I graduated in 1988. At that point you could be a full-time student here for 5-7K per year.
/QUOTE]



Wow, I take it back, you weren't lucky, you were REALLY lucky! 5-7K is amazing, even for 1988.

 

[sara74]

This post was all about how sad we should be for the poor students whose lives are affected negatively by the loans they took out - apparently not realizing that they might have to actually sacrifice to pay them back.

Those of us who are responding with what you seem to think is judgement, are simply pointing out that people are responsible for their own choices and sometimes there are other choices available. We simply disagree that college debt is something to cry over.

I don't get it...presumably if a teenager is smart/responsible/conscious enough to go to college, they would understand the definition of the term 'loan'. From the day I signed the first loan papers to the very end, I understood not only what it meant to have to pay them back, but also what it meant to have variable interest rates and minimum monthly payments. And I am not from a very financially savvy family!

Anywhere on the internet you can find loan payment calculators to see what all this will cost in the end. Also, student loan interest rates for the last few years have been much lower than when I started borrowing.

And I guess I would view these recent grads issues with loans as more of an example of poor career choice, poor choice of living area and poor ability to live within one's means than a reason for crying for them...

 

[Step]

My husband and I are both 24 years old. I will graduate in May with my master's degree in School Psychology with about 70k in SL debt. (Undergrad was at a state school). He is finishing up ITT for drafting with a 33k in SL debt. He is working in his field already and I am about to start my internship. Unfortunately, this debt does hamper our ability to buy a lovely starter home for $200k in this area, but it is not the end of the world. Without our education, we would not be entering or already partaking in our dream careers. It's not all bad even though it seems astronomical. I figure my first year I can start at high 40's and we'll just tackle the debt as best we can. Hell, we've locked our payments over 30 years, so worst case scenario we'll be paying til we're 54, but I think we'll be done in 10 years.

I'm coming out of my second degree (first in theatre, second in computer science) with about 70k in debt as well. The normal pay back time is 10 years on canadian student loans, but I'll pay back sooner if I can. My plan is to divert almost my entire income into paying off my loan till it's done, probably $1000 a month. My soon-to-be husband will likely keep working as well and we'll live frugally as we have been while I was in school. (with adjustments for local living expenses of course)

 

[Crankyshank]

This is a timely thread for me considering I just applied for a student loan. I'm a non traditional student (continuing education at an exclusive private college).

I really tried my hardest to avoid the loan route (I took out loans for my freshman year at UMASS and paid them off after I dropped out). However, it's just too hard for DH and I to afford $750 per class and keep on top of our bills and our house repairs so I bit the bullet and applied yesterday. Fortunately for me my work will pay for basically half of my yearly tuition but I know a lot of companies no longer providing tuition reimbursement unless it specifically relates to the job and even then those companies are becoming fewer and fewer.
It's just getting harder to afford college nowadays without taking out loans. Even with the CC route - around here you have to jump through hoops to get approved to take classes at another school (even a CC). I know a lot of people panicking that the federal aid has been cut significantly and the loan interest rate increasing. I'm hoping my loan is going to be paid off next year so that I don't have to worry about it but I'm going to be going to grad school afterwards and affording it without another mortgage is going to be practically a miracle if things keep up. Unfortunately there seems to be fewer jobs where a bachelors will see a significant enough increase in pay to make up the difference in the increase in loans - more and more seem to be requiring a master's before seeing much of a pay increase.

As far as the wedding portion of this thread is concerned, there are ways to be creative and look like you're spending a lot more than you are. At some point the same old extragavant wedding gets boring and people are looking for something creative and different and that's something that they'll talk about. The $10000 disney wedding is a good example of that. Believe me, I've been there. Weddings in Massachusetts are far from cheap and my Mother has expensive taste. I finally told her I can afford X amount without mortgaging my future and if she wants a say in my wedding she needs to put her money where her mouth is or she's going to have to accept what I decide. Well she ponied up the $$ as well as my Grandmother. Did I get the wedding I wanted? No, but I got my Mother off of my back.

 

[NMW]

I'm from NJ, and so I know that what you speak of here is true. I've seen it first hand, especially the insane parties for young children in the neighborhood that I used to live in (Monmouth County). However, that kind of insanity is not something that you need to let into your own life. We sure didn't, although ultimately we did move from that neighborhood because we felt that there had to be more to life than discussing the terrible entertainment at Joey's 5th BD party or overhearing the whispers that so and so got a built-in pool...but can you believe that it's a *vinyl-lined pool* and not concrete....there goes the neighborhood. Blech...

Your post cracked me up! We are from northern NJ and we bought our first home in Monmouth county-Howell. Our neighborhood was horrible with that stuff!! It's so easy to get caught up into it-kids birthday parties with pony rides, face painters, characters in costumes, catered food, professional photographers, party favors. I remember people discussing the "cheap" party favors at a 3 year old's party, the "cheap" small shrimp at a neighborhood Halloween party, and the list goes on and on.

The thing with the pools is just so true! One neighbor had a vinyl-lined steel pool put in AND *horrors* a fence from Home Depot, not a fence compnay. They also had their sprinkler system attached to their water line and didn't have a well dug and did their "own" landscaping. They also had plain cement around their pool and not paver stones. People started calling them the "Clampetts" from the Beverly Hillbillies. These poor people were gossiped about endlessly.

We moved when my oldest were 4 and 2 and I think it is one of the best decisions we ever made. I think DH still misses NJ, I think he's nuts! Every time we go to Bergen county to vist his family or other places to visit friends, he gets all nostalgic.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My point is that no one here is complaining and yet both sides are finding the need to prove themselves and try to explain their reasonings. That shouldn't even be needed. There's no need for lectures from anyone on college, student loans...or weddings. I'm sure many people had enough of that growing up with everyone setting expectations up for us...let's not do it to each other, too. This is why I'm saying to respect each other and our decisions. After all, my husband's decision to take out a student loan hasn't directly affected anyone's financial situation except for ours.

True--though it is pertinent to the discussion of the article that college debt is leading to doomed futures which I wholeheartedly disagree with due to the subject students in the article and some real life postings here. I cannot respect whiners--that is what the article is about.

I never said OP or anyone else here was whiners--but one must put the whole thing into perspective. Personal Responsibility!!!!

This is HIGHLY dependent on who you're working for. My husband's former job was for a major corporation...and what your husband experienced with his job most certainly would not have happened at this particular company. There are enough people taking advantage of it that they don't need to bother to change for anyone. So I think we need to be careful with stating that "everything" is negotiable...maybe some things are, but "everything" encompasses literally everything...and that's not always the case.

Absolutely true--but I do wonder...are you making assumptions about where my hubby works? He to works for a major corporation--one of the largest employers in our area. An absolute statement was made--I responded with Everything is always negotiable. So we all need to be careful, don't we?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Nor are you asking us to feel sorry for you because of your choices. This post was all about how sad we should be for the poor students whose lives are affected negatively by the loans they took out - apparently not realizing that they might have to actually sacrifice to pay them back.

Those of us who are responding with what you seem to think is judgement, are simply pointing out that people are responsible for their own choices and sometimes there are other choices available. We simply disagree that college debt is something to cry over.

I love it when others can articulate more clearly than I.

I will state again that I was not personally attacking anyone nor attacking their choices on this thread--but pointing out that when you do put it in perspective..college debt is a choice and as disykat said: We simply disagree that college debt is something to cry over.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

There is a core curriculum at my community college that will transfer directly. Mostly English and humanities, with some math classes and quite a few science classes. Unfortunately, most of the Computer Science classes I have taken transfer as general education credits. I would not "lose credits", however, I would have to re-take almost all the Computer Science classes I have taken if I wanted them to count as Computer Science classes. And I only lack one class to complete my AAS in Computer Science. I think this would be a very, very difficult way to complete a degree - taking a majority of Computer Science and Math classes every semester with no easier (for me, anyway) Humanities, English, etc courses. It doesn't matter to me so much as I didn't plan on transferring out anyway. As I said, I already have a Master's degree in another subject. But it would have been very bad had I been a new freshman intending to transfer into the CS program at the University of Texas.

I will say--if a student intends on doing the 2+2 transfer program....

#1--they would have an inkling of the program they will be entering and in this state, they would not be taking core degree classes that do not transfer (i.e. have to be retaken regardless if you get just a general credit).

#2--they spend their community college time getting their general education taken care of...in this state again....a core curriculum of generalized coursework characterized and freshman (1000 series) and sophomore (2000 series) classes. Pre-req's in those series are also transferrable and in this state only advanced course work (3000 series and above) could be rejected as a 1:1 transfer.

#3--a student who plans such a course of study in any other state could use that as a guide...and an advisor SHOULD help them plan accordingly. If a student knows they will do a 2+2 and then foolishly takes non-transferable (as in no credit given as taken and class would have to be repeated regardless of "general credit" granted)---has noone to blame but themselves. And if they were on the 2 year track but changed their minds to do a 4-year, again, I don't see how the burden of the transfer issue belongs to anyone but the student and how anyone but the student is responsible for that choice.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And I guess I would view these recent grads issues with loans as more of an example of poor career choice, poor choice of living area and poor ability to live within one's means than a reason for crying for them...

That's the point we are trying to make.