Article on College Debt- so true it makes me cry

[Crankyshank]

Exactly--that is why it is a poor choice.

Two of the graduates chose to move to those areas when they had a whole country to choose from.

While the poly scie graduate from Iowa may not have gotten the job of her dreams, there are 50 states with 50 state capitals and practically an infinite number of local governments where she could have gotten her start.

The Columbia Graduate moved to Boston, was it---out of all 50 states where he could have had an infinite # of newspapers our magazines...he picks a pay through your nose city with his student loans to consider.

So yes--they did choose poorly.

I'm refering to people from this area who also attend school within a reasonable distance of where they live. I know very few people in my area who travel out of New England for school and then it's normally to NY or NJ. It's not exactly poor choice of living when the person is attending a school where they can get regional tuition which is quite normally the case.

 

[MrsPete]

I'm from NJ, and so I know that what you speak of here is true. I've seen it first hand, especially the insane parties for young children in the neighborhood that I used to live in (Monmouth County). However, that kind of insanity is not something that you need to let into your own life. We sure didn't, although ultimately we did move from that neighborhood because we felt that there had to be more to life than discussing the terrible entertainment at Joey's 5th BD party or overhearing the whispers that so and so got a built-in pool...but can you believe that it's a *vinyl-lined pool* and not concrete....there goes the neighborhood. Blech...

Blech is right! I'm glad we don't have the one-upmanship of that degree here in the South! Well, some people behave that way, but most folks -- especially those of us who are "old South" just ignore them and figure they just weren't raised right.

The majority of weddings I've attended are punch-and-cake in the fellowship hall type affairs. Alcohol is not a necessity at a Southern wedding, and very few people have dancing. I've been to more than my share of weddings because I make high-end, custom-designed wedding cakes, and the punch-and-cake type celebration is considered very acceptable, even among those who could afford more.

 

[MrsPete]

There is a core curriculum at my community college that will transfer directly. Mostly English and humanities, with some math classes and quite a few science classes. Unfortunately, most of the Computer Science classes I have taken transfer as general education credits. I would not "lose credits", however, I would have to re-take almost all the Computer Science classes I have taken if I wanted them to count as Computer Science classes. And I only lack one class to complete my AAS in Computer Science. I think this would be a very, very difficult way to complete a degree . . .

This is evidence that anyone who plans to transfer should work carefully with his or her adviser and should be very sure of their course selections. Done correctly, community college can be a great choice. Done wrong, it can be wasted time.

 

[MrsPete]

Wow, I take it back, you weren't lucky, you were REALLY lucky! 5-7K is amazing, even for 1988.

Yes, but you have to look at the whole picture: Minimum wage was 3.35 per hour when I was in college. If you look at today's minimum wage (it's going up to 6.15 -- I might not have that exactly right in January), and today you could attend a similar college for 10-12K, so while the numbers have changed, things are still about the same.

 

[MrsPete]

It is stickier than that. Up until age 24 (I think)--you are a dependent unless you can prove otherwise.

I got zero parental support--but I was claimed.

I remember in school that there was a process to declare indepedence...but alas...I wasn't able to try that.

Yep, I was in the same situation. The only thing my parents did for me financially during my college years was to cover me on their health insurance (along with the four younger children), yet they claimed me as a deduction on their taxes, and this was perfectly kosher according to the IRA and the financial aid folks. My parents paid nothing towards my education; I don't even remember my mom buying me a pair of jeans during those years. Well, I did stay at their house during Thanksgiving and other school breaks, but they charged me to live there during the summer. Since I couldn't afford that, I found jobs that provided summer housing (i.e., camp counselor) or at least jobs that provided food (i.e., waiting tables).

My parents were not totally heartless: If I had experienced a tragedy -- if I'd developed a terrible disease or something -- they'd have allowed me to come back and live in their house rent-free, but their basic belief was that after high school graduation it was time to move out and make it on your own. I pointed out time and time again that since I was supporting myself, it was unfair that they were taking financial aid money from me by claiming me on their taxes -- they were blind to that fact. They were not doing well financially themselves, and I know they couldn't afford to write me a check for my tuition, but they knowingly hurt me on this financial aid thing.

I knew tax-thing was unfair, so I went to talk to the financial aid department on campus about it. They looked at my paperwork from the previous year and determined that I was lying -- they said that no one could possibly live on what I'd earned the previous year.

At the same time, there were other students whose siutations allowed them to appear more poor than they actually were (legally). I think the whole financial aid program could use a good shake-down.

 

[MrsPete]

College loans are a fact of life, but when there are people whose parents ARE NOT contributing to their education, I think that should be taken into consideration. A student who has 40k loan whose parents send him money for books, clothes, etc. is in much better shape than a student who has to pay for every pencil himself.

While I agree that the financial aid system needs revamping, parents' willingness to help pay for college cannot be a factor. It's just impossible.

Why? Well, think about it. The student sends away his forms, and they come back saying that the student is expected to pay X amount, the parents are expected to pay XX amount, and XXX amount of financial aid will be provided. If the student were allowed to say, "Oh, but my parents won't pay anything, please give me more financial aid" . . . well, pretty soon ON PAPER no parents would be willing to help pay for college. This would result in financial aid going to people who are willing to lie, not those who genuinely need the money most.

Parents who really study the financial aid system have found loopholes, and many of the wealthiest have been able to reap rewards while the poorest go without.

I don't pretend to have any answers on how financial aid could be made more fair, but I don't think just saying, "My parents won't even buy me a pencil" will work.

 

[MrsPete]

Interesting. So even if your parents don't claim you as a dependent, FAFSA still consider you a dependent. That makes no sense.

Laws often don't make sense. I'll throw out another example (unrelated, but interesting): I'm a high school teacher, and occasionally one of my students runs away from home.

If that student is 15 years old, the police will bring him home and hand him over to his parents' custody. They might file a disorderly minor complaint (that's not the phrase, but the right one escapes me at this moment) against him so that he'll have to go to court, and he might be required legally to get counseling -- in other words, the police will help the parents get him back.

However, if that student is 16 years old, the police cannot force him to go back to his parents.

BUT if the parents of that same 16 year old kick him out and say, "We don't like the things you're doing -- you're not going to live here" -- even if he's out of control, even if he's doing drugs and cutting school, even if he is seriously headed for trouble -- Social Services will go after the parents for child abandonment.

I think that's unfair to the parents of 16 and 17 year olds.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That is where I am confused! Say, your family contribution is 18,000, but your parents will not help, how does somebody qualify for aid?

You don't.

This is the trouble with wealthy kids with parents who cut them off. Still claiming them and providing $0 in support.

Some loans are only based on income--and if mommy and daddy make too much, you may not even qualify for those.

Reminds me of the movie with C. Thomas Howell that I forget them name of--he ended up posing as a Black Man to get a scholarship. Now totally the wrong thing to do...but it is a real thing to get denied any financial assistance if your family can technically pony up the money....even if they refuse to.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I can die a happy woman now!!! Finally somebody understands my point!!!

So does that mean people are unknowingly commiting fraud?

That would be very very hard to do.

You require your parents tax return as a dependent. Without it--you are screwed.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I'm refering to people from this area who also attend school within a reasonable distance of where they live. I know very few people who travel out of New England for school due and then it's normally to NY or NJ. It's not exactly poor choice of living when the person is attending a school where they can get regional tuition which is quite normally the case.

It is not unheard of to recruit with companies away from home and coming back later in life.

How can you call it a non-poor choice?

Do they complain about the cost of living? Or do they keep their mouths shut about it?

If the former--poor choice.

I went to the University of Florida--companies from all of the country come recruiting. Very rarely do people find jobs at home unless they purposefully seek them out.

 

[Free4Life11]

You don't.

To my knowledge, anyone can get an unsubsidized Stafford Loan (except druggies??). I know everyone loves the freebies, but you've got to be almost dirt poor to get the Pell Grants and such. Also, there are a lot of forms of aid that aren't need based that come from the state and university.

I think the independent thing is just that if you fall into one of the categories, the feds consider you and ONLY you responsible for the cost of your education. If you don't fall into that category, both you AND your parents are responsible for the cost of education. It sucks if you get no parental support, but if they weren't strict mark my words, everyone and their brother would be claiming themsevles as independent to get all the freebies. I do think that schools can on a case-by-case basis declare a student independent, but I think it's rare and you really have to prove it.

What is someone who has no parental support to do? Work work work and go to an inexpensive school. Get the max in Stafford loans, apply for scholarships, etc. It CAN be done. It's not easy. But again, it can be done. I do 12 credits a semester (full time) and it cost me $4600 last year. That's not bad and since I was a Junior I got a $5000 (or so) Stafford loan. I also worked a lot on the side. For me, university housing is more than tuition so I found a cheap apartment that is off campus but close enough that I can still walk/take the bus.

I am amazed at all the "woe is me, I'm so poor" college students around here who are sporting the latest AF and Hollister threads and driving cars and drinking a Starbucks everyday and talking on their MOTO...now I know that's not the case for everyone, but where I go there seem to be very few "poor" college students.

Now if your parents are claiming you as a dependent and NOT providing more than 50% of your support that IS illegal. But unless you say something the IRS shouldn't question it. My parents don't provide more than 50% but I let them claim me because if they didn't I wouldn't be their dependent and wouldn't be covered under their health insurance. My dad has also cosigned all my loans so the least I can do is let him have my exemption and the measly tuition write off.

 

[Belle5]

Interesting. So even if your parents don't claim you as a dependent, FAFSA still consider you a dependent. That makes no sense.

There is a LOT about FAFSA that does not make sense!!!That organization really does need an overhaul! When my oldest filled out his FAFSA paperwork, the amount of $$$ FAFSA determined our family should be able to contribute to his education per year was staggering! You see, they did not take into consideration (for one second) the fact that we have five other children. If they thought we could "contribute" $$$ per year for our oldest child, what $$$ are we supposed to use to feed and clothe the other five children (and ourselves)? I cannot for the life of me understand how this program can get by with not even considering how many others are in the family.

 

[DVCLiz]

Blech is right! I'm glad we don't have the one-upmanship of that degree here in the South! Well, some people behave that way, but most folks -- especially those of us who are "old South" just ignore them and figure they just weren't raised right.

The majority of weddings I've attended are punch-and-cake in the fellowship hall type affairs. Alcohol is not a necessity at a Southern wedding, and very few people have dancing. I've been to more than my share of weddings because I make high-end, custom-designed wedding cakes, and the punch-and-cake type celebration is considered very acceptable, even among those who could afford more.

I know this isn't a wedding thread, but this is a completely unrealistic portrayal of Southern weddings. Not picking on you, Mrs. Pete - I've been to some "tuna fish on crackers and party mints in the fellowship hall" weddings, too, and they are usually sweet affairs.

But the big wedding is alive and well in my part of the South, and it's absolutely an "old South" event. All of the "old money" families I know (sadly not a memeber of one myself!) wouldn't be caught dead having a church reception. A big church wedding, yes, with plenty of bridesmaids and a designer gown, but receptions are held at the Country Club, along with rehearsal dinners and bridesmaid's luncheons. And a bar of some sort has been standard at every wedding I've ever attended, outside of the church hall.

Just didn't want to give the impression that Southern brides can't spend it with the best of them!!!!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

To my knowledge, anyone can get an unsubsidized Stafford Loan (except druggies??). I know everyone loves the freebies, but you've got to be almost dirt poor to get the Pell Grants and such. Also, there are a lot of forms of aid that aren't need based that come from the state and university.

I think the independent thing is just that if you fall into one of the categories, the feds consider you and ONLY you responsible for the cost of your education. If you don't fall into that category, both you AND your parents are responsible for the cost of education. It sucks if you get no parental support, but if they weren't strict mark my words, everyone and their brother would be claiming themsevles as independent to get all the freebies. I do think that schools can on a case-by-case basis declare a student independent, but I think it's rare and you really have to prove it.

What is someone who has no parental support to do? Work work work and go to an inexpensive school. Get the max in Stafford loans, apply for scholarships, etc. It CAN be done. It's not easy. But again, it can be done. I do 12 credits a semester (full time) and it cost me $4600 last year. That's not bad and since I was a Junior I got a $5000 (or so) Stafford loan. I also worked a lot on the side. For me, university housing is more than tuition so I found a cheap apartment that is off campus but close enough that I can still walk/take the bus.

I am amazed at all the "woe is me, I'm so poor" college students around here who are sporting the latest AF and Hollister threads and driving cars and drinking a Starbucks everyday and talking on their MOTO...now I know that's not the case for everyone, but where I go there seem to be very few "poor" college students.

Now if your parents are claiming you as a dependent and NOT providing more than 50% of your support that IS illegal. But unless you say something the IRS shouldn't question it. My parents don't provide more than 50% but I let them claim me because if they didn't I wouldn't be their dependent and wouldn't be covered under their health insurance. My dad has also cosigned all my loans so the least I can do is let him have my exemption and the measly tuition write off.

If you are dependent and cannot produce your parents tax returns or their signature...you are pretty much screwed as you cannot complete your FAFSA which would provide the information necessary to qualify for the loan.

Calling it "illegal" is a matter of opinion. I did have a scholarship AND I qualified for aid--so my parents providing 50% of my support...well, they'd have to have an extra amount of money lying around. They did support me in other ways in the early years. So don't be so quick to call it illegal.

 

[disneysteve]

If you are dependent and cannot produce your parents tax returns or their signature...you are pretty much screwed as you cannot complete your FAFSA which would provide the information necessary to qualify for the loan.

I had a good friend in college who had this type of problem. She lived with her mother who was estranged (but not divorced) from her father who had taken off for parts unknown. They had been out of contact with him for years. But FAFSA still insisted on seeing dad's tax return, which just wasn't physically possible because nobody knew where dad was or how to contact him. And even if they did, I doubt he would have handed over his 1040.

I don't remember how that played out, but it eventually got straightened out somehow.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I had a good friend in college who had this type of problem. She lived with her mother who was estranged (but not divorced) from her father who had taken off for parts unknown. They had been out of contact with him for years. But FAFSA still insisted on seeing dad's tax return, which just wasn't physically possible because nobody knew where dad was or how to contact him. And even if they did, I doubt he would have handed over his 1040.

I don't remember how that played out, but it eventually got straightened out somehow.

There are extenuating circumstances--I didn't qualify for any..but it involves bothering the Financial Aid office until a work around can be achieved for such circumstances.

I did say earlier but did not elaborate..there is a way to declare indepenance in certain circumstances..but I think you had to wait until after your freshman year. Freshman year was many many many many many years ago, so I don't recall.

A bit more complicated though when you know where the parents are and they do just refuse to assist you. Financial aid doesn't have much sympathy for that.

I didn't have any hinderances to qualifying for aid. If a dependent of my dad--I would have been thoroughly SOL as he makes a lot more money than my mom and his expected contribution would have been $$$$$$...but he was non-custodial parent and so I didn't need his tax returns since they were divorced.

 

[MrsPete]

It sucks if you get no parental support, but if they weren't strict mark my words, everyone and their brother would be claiming themsevles as independent to get all the freebies. I do think that schools can on a case-by-case basis declare a student independent, but I think it's rare and you really have to prove it.

Exactly! I'm not opposed to the financial aid folks being strict or even nosy -- after all, when you send in that paperwork you're asking them to hand over large chunks of money, and people will lie a great deal for cash. I'd just like to see it done fairly, and it sounds like the same loopholes that made a noose for me in college are still hanging today's students.

I am amazed at all the "woe is me, I'm so poor" college students around here who are sporting the latest AF and Hollister threads and driving cars and drinking a Starbucks everyday and talking on their MOTO...now I know that's not the case for everyone, but where I go there seem to be very few "poor" college students.

I think you're right, but this is something new. I was not alone in being a poor college student -- plenty of people didn't have cars, literally never bought new clothes, owned no electronic equipment beyond an alarm clock and an electric typewriter, didn't have a phone on the wall (much less in their pocket!) and stole food from the cafeteria (which was all-you-could-eat) during the week so they could eat on weekends. I think it'd be harder to be the only one in this situation.

I think it has to do with borrowing -- people are more willing to borrow today.

 

[MrsPete]

But the big wedding is alive and well in my part of the South, and it's absolutely an "old South" event. All of the "old money" families I know (sadly not a memeber of one myself!) wouldn't be caught dead having a church reception.

Maybe it's a regional thing -- and we're rural. I know it's not just my family or my perception because I am in the wedding business! I've made some huge, expensive cakes for punch-and-cake type receptions.

 

[MyGoofy26]

I had a good friend in college who had this type of problem. She lived with her mother who was estranged (but not divorced) from her father who had taken off for parts unknown. They had been out of contact with him for years. But FAFSA still insisted on seeing dad's tax return, which just wasn't physically possible because nobody knew where dad was or how to contact him. And even if they did, I doubt he would have handed over his 1040.

I don't remember how that played out, but it eventually got straightened out somehow.

Wow, I think I got lucky. My father split as soon as he heard I was on the way (swore up and down mom must've been cheating) and I've never met nor heard from him, mom never went after or recieved child support, etc. . . so I ALWAYS left that portion blank and I was never questioned. I'd put mom's info on there, but any mention of "father" I'd either leave blank or write N/A.

 

[Crankyshank]

It is not unheard of to recruit with companies away from home and coming back later in life.

How can you call it a non-poor choice?

Do they complain about the cost of living? Or do they keep their mouths shut about it?

If the former--poor choice.

I went to the University of Florida--companies from all of the country come recruiting. Very rarely do people find jobs at home unless they purposefully seek them out.

Everyone around here complains about the cost of living. Rhode Island has one of the highest tax burdens in the country as well as one of the highest costs of living. It didn't used to be like this - people moving to this area because it was once a reasonable place to live made this happen. Just like it is more expensive to live in FL and other states than it was several years ago thanks to an onslaught of people looking for a cheaper place to live.

Very rarely do people find jobs across the country unless they seek them out. Very rarely do people find jobs period unless they seek them out. I fail to see how staying close to home when one has options of living with their family to save money (which is in most cases after graduation) and doesn't have to be concerned about cost of flying home on vacations when in college is a poor choice. Especially considering the higher cost of living places generally mean higher rate of pay. Sure it might cost me less money to up and move to TX but most likely I'm going to be paid less.

but on the same vein I'm not going to pack up and move from this area to NYC where I have no family or friends without the ability to commute from a cheaper town or get a comparable cost of living wage increase. I can see saying that people who move to a high cost of living state where they have no ties and are not receiving a significant pay increase or a potential for that increase are making a poor decision but in reality few people make that decision. I work for a medical school attached to an ivy league University so I deal with students making these decisions all of the time.

I'm sorry but I just find it extremely irritating and insulting to imply I shouldn't complain about the cost of living and the burden of paying my loans because I, like so many others, attended school where it was cheaper for me to go to school and got a job in this area as well.