Any Unschoolers here who ditched that method?

[LuvsDragonflies]

If private schools aren't bound to state testing, why should home schoolers be bound to it?

 

[jodifla]

There are probably some children who would fit the "unschooled" situation just fine. These would be very smart, very MOTIVATED children.

Too often parents decide what school approach they'll use based on their wants and needs and desires, NOT the children's. So someone will decide:
"I'm homeschooling"....even if their children aren't a good fit for homeschooling. Or they'll decide their kid has to go to X private school, EVEN if their child is a lousy fit for a certain private school.

For my family, school is a year-by-year proposition. We're in one of the best school districts in the state, yet I'm not sure that middle school in this district will be the right fit. So when we get to middle school, we'll take another look at where we are.

It's not about ME (I loved public schools), it's about MY CHILD and what's best for him. OP, your friend has fallen in love with a schooling style that's not a good fit for her kids.

 

[knitster]

I was rereading some of this thread to my husband this morning and he was cracking up at the highly idealized picture that was being painted of public school. For one thing, most of the skills you learn when obtaining an education degree are classroom management skills and how to make lesson plans. I don't need to have classroom management skills because I know how to manage my children just fine.

If you'll remember, he has his masters in education and I majored in education before my son came along and I left college to raise him - so we both know exactly what goes into an education degree.

And if you think your 6th grader's history teacher has a degree in history, you're sadly mistaken. The vast majority of teachers have general early or secondary education degrees. Those with specialized degrees are generally teaching at a collegiate level and sometimes a high school level. I promise you that the high school football coaches that taught me history, algebra, and English didn't have their degrees in those subjects - they had degrees in physical education with a teaching certificate.

But if thinking that your kids teachers are all child psychologists with specialized degrees in each subject that they're teaching makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

 

[knitster]

I'm curious, do those of you who support testing homeschoolers also object to the fact that private schools are exempt from state testing requirements?

If private schools aren't bound to state testing, why should home schoolers be bound to it?

exactly.

Too often parents decide what school approach they'll use based on their wants and needs and desires, NOT the children's. So someone will decide:
"I'm homeschooling"....even if their children aren't a good fit for homeschooling. Or they'll decide their kid has to go to X private school, EVEN if their child is a lousy fit for a certain private school.
.

I'm sure you didn't leave public school out of this purposefully, but I feel compelled to point out that many (most?) parents send their kids to public school without a moments hesitation, not even giving a thought to the fact that public school might not be a good fit for their children.

 

[Colleen27]

And there are a lot of kids (even very bright kids) who will avoid subjects that are difficult for them. How do unschoolers deal with that? Just wait and hope Sally will someday like math enough to learn how to take the square root of negative fractions? Or will slicing up a pie check the box for fractions?

The idea is that by the time figuring square roots of negative anything is relevant they will have developed goals that require that level of learning, and therefore choose to learn it not necessarily for its own sake but for the bigger picture. That's why expectations are key to unschooling and why the OP's friend is such a bad example of the method - to allow totally child-led learning requires raising children in such a way that they will set those goals of getting into a specific college, pursuing a certain course of study, or following a chosen career path.

But I think your example is actually a good illustration of the impossible standards people build up in their minds for homeschoolers. I was a high achieving public school student and have two associates degrees in very different areas of study, though I've not yet gone back to finish my bachelors. I have 4 years of high school math and 2 semesters of college math under my belt, which is all I need for my degree if/when I do decide to finish. I've never been in a situation where I've needed to take the square root of negative fractions, not for a class at any level and not for any real world application. If that's where we're setting the bar, sure, many homeschoolers fail but so do many public schools and even universities!

 

[knitster]

But I think your example is actually a good illustration of the impossible standards people build up in their minds for homeschoolers. I was a high achieving public school student and have two associates degrees in very different areas of study, though I've not yet gone back to finish my bachelors. I have 4 years of high school math and 2 semesters of college math under my belt, which is all I need for my degree if/when I do decide to finish. I've never been in a situation where I've needed to take the square root of negative fractions, not for a class at any level and not for any real world application. If that's where we're setting the bar, sure, many homeschoolers fail but so do many public schools and even universities!

Exactly!! As I've mentioned so many times it's now becoming quite obnoxious - my husband holds a masters degree and he was also in every advanced math class that his high school offered and also took as many math classes as he could get his hands on at the collegiate level - he loves math! And when I asked him if he could find the square root of a negative fraction, he said that he could look around online, dig through some books, and most likely figure it out, but could he do it if asked to on a test? No! And please point me in the direction of a public schooled kid who can do that.

It's unreal the level of expectation that is put onto homeschoolers when a big chunk of public schools are still turning out functionally illiterate graduates every single year.

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

Exactly!! As I've mentioned so many times it's now becoming quite obnoxious - my husband holds a masters degree and he was also in every advanced math class that his high school offered and also took as many math classes as he could get his hands on at the collegiate level - he loves math! And when I asked him if he could find the square root of a negative fraction, he said that he could look around online, dig through some books, and most likely figure it out, but could he do it if asked to on a test? No! And please point me in the direction of a public schooled kid who can do that.

It's unreal the level of expectation that is put onto homeschoolers when a big chunk of public schools are still turning out functionally illiterate graduates every single year.

Actually, any student taking Algebra II would be expected to know the answer (they usually learn the concept if i halfway through the course). Now, would the average person need to know that in real life? I suppose not, but the point of education is to expand and develop the mind as well as to learn the more practical concepts.

 

[jodifla]

exactly.



I'm sure you didn't leave public school out of this purposefully, but I feel compelled to point out that many (most?) parents send their kids to public school without a moments hesitation, not even giving a thought to the fact that public school might not be a good fit for their children.

I think it's pretty common to move into a good school district if you can, so I think many parents do take that into account. And I know of several public school parents who have switched schools in the past few years, or may switch in middle school or high school.

 

[IndianSummer]

And there are a lot of kids (even very bright kids) who will avoid subjects that are difficult for them. How do unschoolers deal with that? Just wait and hope Sally will someday like math enough to learn how to take the square root of negative fractions? Or will slicing up a pie check the box for fractions?

If a child is unmotivated to learn, over a long period of time, there are imbalance issues of one kind or another. That is not normal human development.

And this is where a good relationship with your kid is important. I didn't say they don't need guidance in making their choices. Helping them think through what they want and what they need to do to get it is usually enough for a kid who hates, math, for example, to decide it's time to sit down and do some.

My unschooled kids have subjects they gravitate towards and others they would prefer to avoid, BUT, I make use of that Socratic method a pp spoke of in stimulating them to figure out what is good for them.

 

[knitster]

Actually, any student taking Algebra II would be expected to know the answer (they usually learn the concept if i halfway through the course). Now, would the average person need to know that in real life? I suppose not, but the point of education is to expand and develop the mind as well as to learn the more practical concepts.

Well I took algebra II, my husband took algebra II and trig and calculus and neither of us could do that problem off the top of our heads.

Guess we're not qualified to homeschool after all!

 

[knitster]

I think it's pretty common to move into a good school district if you can, so I think many parents do take that into account. And I know of several public school parents who have switched schools in the past few years, or may switch in middle school or high school.

What you're talking about is switching from one PS to another, not assessing a child's educational needs and saying, "PS isn't right for this child"

 

[IndianSummer]

Actually, any student taking Algebra II would be expected to know the answer (they usually learn the concept if i halfway through the course). Now, would the average person need to know that in real life? I suppose not, but the point of education is to expand and develop the mind as well as to learn the more practical concepts.

Yes. They would be expected to remember it up until test day. After that, no one cares unless they choose to become a math teacher teaching algebra II. And I agree that education is to expand and develop the mind, but algebra is only one of many subjects that does this. Believe it or not, some wonderfully developed minds in our world never learned advanced algebra. And that is okay.

 

[IndianSummer]

Why are we talking about advanced math when the OP's kids are 1,7 and 9?

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

Well I took algebra II, my husband took algebra II and trig and calculus and neither of us could do that problem off the top of our heads.

Guess we're not qualified to homeschool after all!

Why the sarcasm? I just clarified that learning the concepts of square roots and imaginary numbers are part of the Algebra II learning outcomes and that the vast majority of teenagers in the US are expected to be able to solve those types of problems at some point in their high school careers. If you want your homeschooling student to be at the same mathematical level as public school students, they will need to learn those concepts.

I would assume that if you are a resourceful, reasonably intelligent homeschooling parent, that you would be able to find out how to solve those types of problems when needed (or you would find the support of someone who could).

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

And I agree that education is to expand and develop the mind, but algebra is only one of many subjects that does this. Believe it or not, some wonderfully developed minds in our world never learned advanced algebra. And that is okay.

Yes, I believe that some wonderfully developed minds in our world never learned advanced algebra. In fact, I'd even suggest that possibly the majority of wonderfully-developed minds never learned it (and the vast majority probably don't even remember any of it ).

My point though, was that the PP had said that homeschooling students were being held to an unreasonable standard:

It's unreal the level of expectation that is put onto homeschoolers when a big chunk of public schools are still turning out functionally illiterate graduates every single year.

I just pointed out that the level of expectation of her example (learning how to solve for the square root of a negative fraction), was a learning outcome required for the vast majority of regular public school students.

If a homeschooling child is planning to explore a career in the sciences and is planning to take math courses in university, then exploring advanced algebra becomes very important, and at that point it becomes the responsibility of both the student and parent to find the resources to acquire those concepts.

 

[knitster]

I hate the notion that college is the goal for educating our children. As if every person will - or even should - attend college. College, just like every other educational choice, is not for everyone. My mom went to college for 2 years and dropped out when she got married. My husband earned both a bachelors and masters degree. They now both work at the same oil and gas company (he in HR, her in geology) and she makes way more money than him. College doesn't equal success and a good education doesn't equal college attendance.

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

I hate the notion that college is the goal for educating our children. As if every person will - or even should - attend college. College, just like every other educational choice, is not for everyone. My mom went to college for 2 years and dropped out when she got married. My husband earned both a bachelors and masters degree. They now both work at the same oil and gas company (he in HR, her in geology) and she makes way more money than him. College doesn't equal success and a good education doesn't equal college attendance.

I fully agree with you - there are many trades that are far more lucrative that many professional degrees, and there will always be a place for small business owners, entrepreneurs, etc. University is certainly not for everyone! However, I do think that university SHOULD be an option for every child if that is what THEY want, and I'd hate to see any child's options limited because of their parents' educational philosophies.

I DO think that homeschooling can be extremely successful, and I think the philosophy behind unschooling is fascinating (although I imagine it is very difficult and a lot of work for the parent to implement it successfully). In fact, I would honestly say that a child that has undergone a good quality homeschooling programme would be much better prepared for university than the average child who's gone through the public school system.

I seriously considered homeschooling my older DD when we moved to Chile as she is very self-motivated and likes to learn independently. However, she very much enjoys the social aspects of school and didn't want to do it, much to my disappointment.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Anyway, I didn't want to further comment since I've sent her this link.

Aisling,
I know that you have backed away from this thread now.
And, I totally agree that, now that you have input, great move!

This thread could definitetly go round and round and round, off-topic, for, like, forever.

However, if you are still reading at all, I wanted to address your situation more directly. I see that you have forwarded this thread to your friend. And, that is fine... But, I just wanted to say that I do not know if this was the most effective thing to do.

I would bet that your friend has her mind set on her methods, no matter what. She as read as much one-sided "un-school -vs- evil school system or other structured schooling" as she can find. Even her husband has been unable to get her to consider or respect his concerns. In a way, if this is an issue that is affecting their relationship and their marriage, you would now be stepping into two areas that are kind of considered off-limits, unless specifically asked and made necessary.

Also, basicly, you have not become involved in a way that might not be really good or appropriate. I am not so sure that she is asking for any input here. And, you know the old saying.... "Don't like the message, hate the messenger...." So I would be prepared for any fall-out here that comes your way.

Are you close to her husband at all.
Is there any way that you could show him that you support his viewpoint?
I really think that, as the father, HE is the only one who is can and should step up and take some initiative/action here.
Are you thinking that, at any time, you might be able to consider reporting her for educational neglect? ( I would not be familiar with any homeschooling regulations in your state... but that might be something that you could look into.)

Anyhow, just for the record, I AM a homeschooler. My son has some pretty complex learning disabilities and he would simply not be able to function and learn in our horrid school system here. And, even as a homeschooler, I can say that I completely understand and back your concerns here 100%. I can tell you with 100% certainty that with my son, if I did not enforce some structure and 'teaching'.... I would be ensuring my son son's failure.

 

[Magic Mom]

I hate the notion that college is the goal for educating our children. As if every person will - or even should - attend college. College, just like every other educational choice, is not for everyone. My mom went to college for 2 years and dropped out when she got married. My husband earned both a bachelors and masters degree. They now both work at the same oil and gas company (he in HR, her in geology) and she makes way more money than him. College doesn't equal success and a good education doesn't equal college attendance.

The option to go to college is the goal. A person may decide another route is best, but they should (barring some developmental reason) have been given the background knowledge to open up that option if that's what they choose.

 

[Colleen27]

Actually, any student taking Algebra II would be expected to know the answer (they usually learn the concept if i halfway through the course). Now, would the average person need to know that in real life? I suppose not, but the point of education is to expand and develop the mind as well as to learn the more practical concepts.

I stand corrected. I did take Algebra II but don't remember addressing imaginary numbers, probably because it has been 10+ years and I haven't encountered it since. But even so that's advanced track math and many high schoolers do graduate without ever seeing it; at the school I attended Algebra II was top track math for junior year. Kids on the general and applied tracks didn't see that at all in high school. So I don't think it is problematic if an unschooled student never decides to pursue math studies to that level.