Any Unschoolers here who ditched that method?

[luvsJack]

That's been answered several times with some very concrete examples - because testing means being tied to the public school curriculum, which undermines the benefit of homeschooling. It means setting aside the chronological history curriculum that you chose because the state dictates state history has to be learned in 4th grade and American history in 5th, starting division in 4th grade when your curriculum calls for a complete mastery of multiplication that year before moving onto division the next, etc.

I'm curious, do those of you who support testing homeschoolers also object to the fact that private schools are exempt from state testing requirements?

I think private schools should be tested too.

I am not saying that I think the homeschooled children should take the same test as the public school kids. Maybe a test is not the answer but there needs to be some accountablity.

There are thousands of kids that are homeschooled that are getting a great education, there are also many that are getting little to no education. What is going to happen to that set of kids?

 

[DopeyDame]

I stand corrected. I did take Algebra II but don't remember addressing imaginary numbers, probably because it has been 10+ years and I haven't encountered it since. But even so that's advanced track math and many high schoolers do graduate without ever seeing it; at the school I attended Algebra II was top track math for junior year. Kids on the general and applied tracks didn't see that at all in high school. So I don't think it is problematic if an unschooled student never decides to pursue math studies to that level.

Seriously? Around here, Algebra II in junior year is standard for most students except vocatoinal or special ed. Many, many students take it in 9th grade. If you have any hope of being successful in science or engineering majors in college, Algebra II plus Trig and Precalc are truly the very bare minimum you should have upon HS graduation - the vast majority of college freshman in those majors have already had Calculus I and maybe Calc II. I'm shocked that someone can get a high school diploma without having taken Algebra II.

ETA: This came across as more harsh to you, Colleen, than I intended. I don't doubt you at all, I just find it upsetting and sad that that's the state of public schools where you live.

 

[jodifla]

What you're talking about is switching from one PS to another, not assessing a child's educational needs and saying, "PS isn't right for this child"

No, just look at my first post on the subject, when I talked about several parents I know who love our elementary, but are eyeing private options for middle school for varying reasons.

 

[holycow]

mainstream school did not provide the sort of educational opportunities that we wanted for our son.



Your child left when he was 6. How do you know it couldn't provide the sort of opportunities? You never gave the schools a chance.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I think private schools should be tested too.

I am not saying that I think the homeschooled children should take the same test as the public school kids. Maybe a test is not the answer but there needs to be some accountablity.

There are thousands of kids that are homeschooled that are getting a great education, there are also many that are getting little to no education. What is going to happen to that set of kids?

First, do you have a citation or is this just another anecdote?

Second, a parent misusing the label of homeschooling to let their child run amok isn't going to suddenly gain wisdom and ethics due to more strict guidelines. People have his utopian view that regulation will save a child from falling through the cracks. Unforunately, regulation is no guarantee of anything.

Homeschooling is a parenting decision protected by the first amendment. It seems many (getting anectdotal based on what Negative commentary I have read or heard) want more regulation so that they can feel more comfortable about someone else's choices. They need the government to require proof that what that parent is doing is not harming the child.

But we have a couple of things in our country that favor Homeschoolers. We are innocent until proven guilty. You (general) don't get to assume anything about my child. (This was used recently with a truancy daytime curfew law in CA where a homeschool family sued when their children were detained without due process. The Lawsuit was necessary to remove an unconstitutional law.

While people are entitled to opinions, they don't get to strip my freedoms just because they don't like what I am doing. And calling for more regulation does exactly that. People are assuming harm is being done based on anectdotal exceptions.

Funny how nobody addressed the obesity issue and government monitoring of your child's diet. Afterall the medical profession, nutritionists and the government have much better credentials to figure out what your child should eat. As a society, parents are ill equipped to feed their children without regulations prescribing exactly what you should feed them and annual standardized physicals that must be conducted without exception. It is there health and well being that is most important.

 

[declansdad]

Which parts boggle your mind? No, I don't know the OP, I'm not from the US at all.

It boggles my mind that you think this mom is doing a good job.

 

[K and K's Mommy]

I don't want to get into this debate, but I would like to give your friend something concrete to do. Before I was a SAHM, I was a teacher. I know in most homeschooling, the parents get a set curriculum. I only know about "unschooling" from these boards, but I assume it is supposed to be the children leading the curriculum. I wrote my own curriculum a lot when I taught, and I believe that is what your friend has got to do. She cannot allow her children to not read and write.

Let's say that the 9 year old is interested in turtles. She needs to find every easy reader she can about turtles and start reading with him/her. She needs to make math problems around turtles, etc. Research shows that only a small percentage of kids learn to read well without phonics. Maybe she has one in that small percentage and they will learn to read by memorizing chunks of words. However, it is my guess, she is going to have to incorporate phonics into the curriculum.

When they are on their field trips, the children should be paying and figuring out much money to spend, miles to get there, how much time they have, etc. Sneak in math facts with car games.

I really wish her the best of luck. I realize that for some reason she doesn't trust teachers, but most of us love children, love what we do, and want the best for every child.

 

[knitster]

There are thousands of kids that are homeschooled that are getting a great education, there are also many that are getting little to no education. What is going to happen to that set of kids?

There are also many children falling through the cracks of the public school system, what is going to happen to that set of kids? Do you think putting further restrictions and requirements on public school teachers is the answer? If not, then why is that the answer for the few bad homeschoolers out there?

First, do you have a citation or is this just another anecdote?

Second, a parent misusing the label of homeschooling to let their child run amok isn't going to suddenly gain wisdom and ethics due to more strict guidelines. People have his utopian view that regulation will save a child from falling through the cracks. Unforunately, regulation is no guarantee of anything.

Homeschooling is a parenting decision protected by the first amendment. It seems many (getting anectdotal based on what Negative commentary I have read or heard) want more regulation so that they can feel more comfortable about someone else's choices. They need the government to require proof that what that parent is doing is not harming the child.

But we have a couple of things in our country that favor Homeschoolers. We are innocent until proven guilty. You (general) don't get to assume anything about my child. (This was used recently with a truancy daytime curfew law in CA where a homeschool family sued when their children were detained without due process. The Lawsuit was necessary to remove an unconstitutional law.

While people are entitled to opinions, they don't get to strip my freedoms just because they don't like what I am doing. And calling for more regulation does exactly that. People are assuming harm is being done based on anectdotal exceptions.

Funny how nobody addressed the obesity issue and government monitoring of your child's diet. Afterall the medical profession, nutritionists and the government have much better credentials to figure out what your child should eat. As a society, parents are ill equipped to feed their children without regulations prescribing exactly what you should feed them and annual standardized physicals that must be conducted without exception. It is there health and well being that is most important.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth!

I don't want to get into this debate, but I would like to give your friend something concrete to do. Before I was a SAHM, I was a teacher. I know in most homeschooling, the parents get a set curriculum. I only know about "unschooling" from these boards, but I assume it is supposed to be the children leading the curriculum. I wrote my own curriculum a lot when I taught, and I believe that is what your friend has got to do. She cannot allow her children to not read and write.

Let's say that the 9 year old is interested in turtles. She needs to find every easy reader she can about turtles and start reading with him/her. She needs to make math problems around turtles, etc. Research shows that only a small percentage of kids learn to read well without phonics. Maybe she has one in that small percentage and they will learn to read by memorizing chunks of words. However, it is my guess, she is going to have to incorporate phonics into the curriculum.

When they are on their field trips, the children should be paying and figuring out much money to spend, miles to get there, how much time they have, etc. Sneak in math facts with car games.

I really wish her the best of luck. I realize that for some reason she doesn't trust teachers, but most of us love children, love what we do, and want the best for every child.

This is the best post in this entire thread. That is exactly what this mom should be (and should have always been) doing. That's exactly what unschooling is! Making every.single.event in every day life, a full educational experience. Again, it's not an avenue I'd ever take, but it can be successful if the parent is diligent, which this mother - from the information we've been given - is clearly not.

 

[jodifla]

First, do you have a citation or is this just another anecdote.

Second, a parent misusing the label of homeschooling to let their child run amok isn't going to suddenly gain wisdom and ethics due to more strict guidelines. People have his utopian view that regulation will save a child from falling through the cracks. Unforunately, regulation is no guarantee of anything.

Homeschooling is a parenting decision protected by the first amendment. It seems many (getting anectdotal based on what Negative commentary I have read or heard) want more regulation so that they can feel more comfortable about someone else's choices. They need the government to require proof that what that parent is doing is not harming the child.

But we have a couple of things in our country that favor Homeschoolers. We are innocent until proven guilty. You (general) don't get to assume anything about my child. (This was used recently with a truancy daytime curfew law in CA where a homeschool family sued when their children were detained without due process. The Lawsuit was necessary to remove an unconstitutional law.

While people are entitled to opinions, they don't get to strip my freedoms just because they don't like what I am doing. And calling for more regulation does exactly that. People are assuming harm is being done based on anectdotal exceptions.

Funny how nobody addressed the obesity issue and government monitoring of your child's diet. Afterall the medical profession, nutritionists and the government have much better credentials to figure out what your child should eat. As a society, parents are ill equipped to feed their children without regulations prescribing exactly what you should feed them and annual standardized physicals that must be conducted without exception. It is there health and well being that is most important.

There are limits to even Free Speech rights.

There are state regulations on homeschooling, and these have stood up in Court. This is not just about the parents' rights, it's about the rights of children to get a decent education that allows them to compete in the world. While many (most?) of homeschooling parents have this goal as well, not all of them do.

To your obesity example....if a child's health was failing or endangered, then the doctor or other reporter would call the state and they would be involved.

Edited to add: Homeschooling is still a fairly new phenomenon. More statistics are likely coming in the years down the road. And it's my bet that the results will always be skewed to the high end, because it won't capture homeschoolers who don't participate in the surveys. Those people will just ignore/hide out from the researchers.

 

[luvsJack]

First, do you have a citation or is this just another anecdote?

Second, a parent misusing the label of homeschooling to let their child run amok isn't going to suddenly gain wisdom and ethics due to more strict guidelines. People have his utopian view that regulation will save a child from falling through the cracks. Unforunately, regulation is no guarantee of anything.

Homeschooling is a parenting decision protected by the first amendment. It seems many (getting anectdotal based on what Negative commentary I have read or heard) want more regulation so that they can feel more comfortable about someone else's choices. They need the government to require proof that what that parent is doing is not harming the child.

But we have a couple of things in our country that favor Homeschoolers. We are innocent until proven guilty. You (general) don't get to assume anything about my child. (This was used recently with a truancy daytime curfew law in CA where a homeschool family sued when their children were detained without due process. The Lawsuit was necessary to remove an unconstitutional law.

While people are entitled to opinions, they don't get to strip my freedoms just because they don't like what I am doing. And calling for more regulation does exactly that. People are assuming harm is being done based on anectdotal exceptions.

Funny how nobody addressed the obesity issue and government monitoring of your child's diet. Afterall the medical profession, nutritionists and the government have much better credentials to figure out what your child should eat. As a society, parents are ill equipped to feed their children without regulations prescribing exactly what you should feed them and annual standardized physicals that must be conducted without exception. It is there health and well being that is most important.

I know there are many successful homeschooled children from the kids I see transfer into ps in high school or the ones that we have registering in community college.

I also know that many are not being schooled at all. The two girls in my previous post--they are neighbor girls that dd was once friends with. When my sister was a teacher in the public schools she had several previously homeschooled students transfer in to her 4th grade class that could not read.

Its from personal observation and knowledge.

Everyone should be totally free to choose to homeschool their child. All I am saying is that there should be some accountablity.

I have not assumed anything about your child. I am only speaking for children that I have personally seen that have not been educated at all.

Not wanting to see children grow up with no education at all is not the same thing as being against homeschooling. I am not against it at all, I have seen the success stories, just like I have seen the failures.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

There are limits to even Free Speech rights.

There are state regulations on homeschooling, and these have stood up in Court. This is not just about the parents' rights, it's about the rights of children to get a decent education that allows them to compete in the world. While many (most?) of homeschooling parents have this goal as well, not all of them do.

To your obesity example....if a child's health was failing or endangered, then the doctor or other reporter would call the state and they would be involved.

You are correct. But would you be okay with the government intervening BEFORE it is an issue with your child's health? An annual mandatory screening by the government to ensure your child is where they need to be I including any fruit and vegetable deficits...

In the end, you cannot legislate good parenting.

And I will defend a homeschooler's rights to not have any further legislation than what exists out there.

 

[skater]

I think private schools should be tested too.

I am not saying that I think the homeschooled children should take the same test as the public school kids. Maybe a test is not the answer but there needs to be some accountablity.

There are thousands of kids that are homeschooled that are getting a great education, there are also many that are getting little to no education. What is going to happen to that set of kids?

There is some accountability. Some states have a lot and some a little. There is no evidence that the states with more oversight produce better educated homeschooled kids.

As far as the "many" who are getting little to no education, I'm not sure that this is true. I bet there are way more kids in public schools who are getting little to no education.

My DD is taking Eng. 101 at the community college as a HS senior. She was surprised one day when the instructor held up her quiz as an example of how to get the questions correct. It was an open book quiz completed online. And these are mostly college freshmen. Are these kids truly educated if they can't successfully complete an open book quiz?

 

[cornflake]

Ok, I'll bite - what the heck clause in the First Amendment do you think protects homeschooling?

It's not, as someone mentioned, anything to do with freedom of speech, as that's ... what it says it is. You can speak through an action or a t-shirt, not through a decision to homeschool, just.. .what? If you do somehow think it's freedom of speech, please explain that one in depth. Otherwise... what clause are you attaching there?

I've heard many a story of schooled kids (late bloomers, teens, even)that were expected to never be able to read and write fluently who became excellent writers and/or avid, advanced readers with a brief period of deschooling. Get the stress and pressure out and all of a sudden kids become much more capable of learning and creativity.

Anecdotal maybe, but when you hear, almost weekly, about another kid who has experienced this same thing, something real is happening.

No, something real isn't necessarily happening at all. Yes, that's anecdotal and totally unreliable on several levels. First, the obvious - how many people tell you they KNOW the person who had Orangejello and Lemonjello and La-a in their classrooms, rolls, etc.? Second, parents have rose-coloured glasses. "Now she loves to read!" Might mean, to a parent with a kid with serious reading deficits, that the child now will read the boxes of cereal if she gets to pick one, or likes that one book about the duckling that she's memorized but the parent thinks she's reading, because the kid has no recourse.

As for the person who brought up Hurricane Irene - I did not dismiss science and scientists, I dismissed our jerky little mayor and some news anchors. Those people are not scientists. Nor is their saying 'meteorologists say in a worst-case scenario, it may be possible for X to happen under the right conditions' scientific backing for X being a likely scenario.

Also, I dunno what schools y'all attend but the negative fraction question was and is basic high school work (like, not from any advanced class or class not everyone takes) where I come from. Math has moved forward as well. Stuff I only did as a h.s. freshman, like quadratic equations, is now commonly done by 7th and 8th grade classes.

 

[skater]

Not wanting to see children grow up with no education at all is not the same thing as being against homeschooling. I am not against it at all, I have seen the success stories, just like I have seen the failures.

I agree - you don't come across as someone who's totally against homeschooling. But my point is that there are lots of successes and failures in all forms of education. I personally believe (from HSLDA research and from anecdotal evidence) that the success rate is higher for homeschooling.

If I'm correct and homeschooling is more successful, then I believe we should fix the much larger public school system before we worry about the homeschoolers.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

On the contrary--

By Observing the people you know, you feel further legislation aka "accountability" is necessary because you are making the assumption that without such legislation, there will be more kids like those.

No different than me stating we should regulate children's nutrition because I know some kids who are overweight and I want to make sure that no kid is overweight.

I can understand why you may not see that.

I want all homes to be safe and clean for kids--I am sure you do a fine job, but many homes are pigstys. We need accountability for that as well so kids don't grow up lazy.

I know there are many successful homeschooled children from the kids I see transfer into ps in high school or the ones that we have registering in community college.

I also know that many are not being schooled at all. The two girls in my previous post--they are neighbor girls that dd was once friends with. When my sister was a teacher in the public schools she had several previously homeschooled students transfer in to her 4th grade class that could not read.

Its from personal observation and knowledge.

Everyone should be totally free to choose to homeschool their child. All I am saying is that there should be some accountablity.

I have not assumed anything about your child. I am only speaking for children that I have personally seen that have not been educated at all.

Not wanting to see children grow up with no education at all is not the same thing as being against homeschooling. I am not against it at all, I have seen the success stories, just like I have seen the failures.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Exactly!! As I've mentioned so many times it's now becoming quite obnoxious - my husband holds a masters degree and he was also in every advanced math class that his high school offered and also took as many math classes as he could get his hands on at the collegiate level - he loves math! And when I asked him if he could find the square root of a negative fraction, he said that he could look around online, dig through some books, and most likely figure it out, but could he do it if asked to on a test? No! And please point me in the direction of a public schooled kid who can do that.

It's unreal the level of expectation that is put onto homeschoolers when a big chunk of public schools are still turning out functionally illiterate graduates every single year.

Who cares?
All of us with masters please raise your hand
Are you now assuming that people with Masters don't use the public school system.


You and hubby had nothing to do this morning but talk about the Dis?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Freedom of speech and the other is a banned topic on the DIS.

Feel free to google cases. But in a similar vein to why private schools are legal.

Not sure what happened..I had more typed.

Anyway: Meterology is a science and it wasn't negative fractions but the square roots of a negative number. The latter is definitely not elementary math.

Citations:
http://www.enotes.com/earth-science/meteorology
http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/math/algtrig/ATO6/SquareRootLes.htm

I found a neat article on the constitutional basis of homeschooling, but am concerned of the overall website content and disboard rules. 1st, 9th and 14th amendments are the basis. Google the topic for further information. The specific case are Pierce vs Society of Sisters (1925) and Farmington vs Tokushige (1927). Paraphrased: States cannot impose a uniform system of education on children. Feel free to google for more information and you will find the answers to your questions regarding constitionality of homeschooling.

Ok, I'll bite - what the heck clause in the First Amendment do you think protects homeschooling?

It's not, as someone mentioned, anything to do with freedom of speech, as that's ... what it says it is. You can speak through an action or a t-shirt, not through a decision to homeschool, just.. .what? If you do somehow think it's freedom of speech, please explain that one in depth. Otherwise... what clause are you attaching there?

I brought up Irene. Your jerky little mayor reacted based on what scientists said and what warnings indicated. Meterology is a science and most metro areas would not have a weather anchor who was not a meteorologist. Did you not learn meteorology in school?

And last, the math issue mentioned was not a negative fraction, but the square root of a negative number that Is definitely more advanced. If it is elementary, please tell me when your children or the people whose public schooled children you know learned how to do that.


No, something real isn't necessarily happening at all. Yes, that's anecdotal and totally unreliable on several levels. First, the obvious - how many people tell you they KNOW the person who had Orangejello and Lemonjello and La-a in their classrooms, rolls, etc.? Second, parents have rose-coloured glasses. "Now she loves to read!" Might mean, to a parent with a kid with serious reading deficits, that the child now will read the boxes of cereal if she gets to pick one, or likes that one book about the duckling that she's memorized but the parent thinks she's reading, because the kid has no recourse.

As for the person who brought up Hurricane Irene - I did not dismiss science and scientists, I dismissed our jerky little mayor and some news anchors. Those people are not scientists. Nor is their saying 'meteorologists say in a worst-case scenario, it may be possible for X to happen under the right conditions' scientific backing for X being a likely scenario.

Also, I dunno what schools y'all attend but the negative fraction question was and is basic high school work (like, not from any advanced class or class not everyone takes) where I come from. Math has moved forward as well. Stuff I only did as a h.s. freshman, like quadratic equations, is now commonly done by 7th and 8th grade classes.

 

[Robinrs]

Who cares?
All of us with masters please raise your hand
Are you now assuming that people with Masters don't use the public school system.


You and hubby had nothing to do this morning but talk about the Dis?

 

[jodifla]

You are correct. But would you be okay with the government intervening BEFORE it is an issue with your child's health? An annual mandatory screening by the government to ensure your child is where they need to be I including any fruit and vegetable deficits...

In the end, you cannot legislate good parenting.

And I will defend a homeschooler's rights to not have any further legislation than what exists out there.

They already do this, and frequently. Immunizations, car seats and ever-older ages, regulating if I can leave my child in a car when I run into a convenience store, etc, etc. etc.

 

[knitster]

Who cares?
All of us with masters please raise your hand
Are you now assuming that people with Masters don't use the public school system.


You and hubby had nothing to do this morning but talk about the Dis?

...where are you getting that I assume people with masters degrees don't use the public school system? Given the frequency with which you make wildly inaccurate statements regarding the posts that have been made here, I can only deduce that you have some reading comprehension problems. Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse. Or perhaps you just want to fight instead of engage in a real discussion. Hmmm, which could it be....?

To answer your sham of a question - no, quite the opposite, I assume that the vast majority of people with Masters degrees use the public school system, since the vast majority of people as a whole use the public school system. Now would you like to explain to me how on Earth you came to that conclusion after reading my post? Wait, I already know your answer - your answer will be complete silence because you continually refuse to acknowledge any intelligent responses given to you and opt, instead, to troll around and look for posts that you can attempt to pick apart and insult.