American Heritage Girls?

[sha_lyn]

cybrkitn...... Please don't feel like I am bashing you. I think it is your choice of words "shocking" and lack of explanation in that post that bothers most of us.
Please try to see it from our POV... GS is not a Christian organization. To hear that someone is "shocked" that non christains are allowed in GS(and may adapt the pledge to fit their beliefs) is very unsettling. To live in the "bible belt" as a non-Christian is very hard as it is. It is very difficult to find accepting groups,especially for home-schoolers such as my family. To hear that someone is "shocked" that our beliefs are not a problem for GS is upsetting.

 

[DVCLiz]

If I felt as strongly as some posters do that my daughter should be in an organization that followed only our family's religious beliefs, and welcomed no one of a different faith or with a different concept of God, I would find an organization that catered to that belief system. In fact, I would participate only in the one that I knew would - I believe it's called church.

How silly and narrow-minded to bash the Girl Scouts for their attempt to be inclusive!! And I will say that, because this is a public message board and I'm allowed to have my own opinion, too!!

I'm so glad I have exposed my girls to people with different faiths - and different sexual orientations, and different skin color. I know they will be richer for it all of their lives.

 

[robinb]

Robinb, my comments are my personal beliefs for me. I do not appreciate the sarcasm and personal attack.

While I admit that the "God Forbid" part was a bit snarky, my comments were in no way a personal attack. I am sorry if you read them in that way.

You are absolutely entitled to your beliefs and to raise your children as you wish. I do not have a problem with that. However, as a non-Christian I am sensitive to the comments of others who appear to want to erode my rights as an American citizen because my family does not practice the dominant religion. Perhaps I was reading too much into the fact that you said you were "shocked" that the GS allowed girls or all faiths or even no faith to join. If I misread your intention, then I apologize.

 

[cybrkitn]

While I admit that the "God Forbid" part was a bit snarky, my comments were in no way a personal attack. I am sorry if you read them in that way.

You are absolutely entitled to your beliefs and to raise your children as you wish. I do not have a problem with that. However, as a non-Christian I am sensitive to the comments of others who appear to want to erode my rights as an American citizen because my family does not practice the dominant religion. Perhaps I was reading too much into the fact that you said you were "shocked" that the GS allowed girls or all faiths or even no faith to join. If I misread your intention, then I apologize.

Thanks Robinb I didn't really elaborate further on it b/c I feared that it would turn the thread into a "pro/anti religion" thread. And we all know how those go, lol. I understand how sensitive people can be. I'm not good at wording at times and I didn't know how to post without it sounding the wrong way or sounding as if I was getting on my soap box/high horse (which I have definately been guilty of at times on other threads).

I was just shocked and taken back by it b/c I wasn't expecting to see that type of statement (it threw me there for a bit). I disagree with it and that's my personal feeling on it, but in no way am I telling other people that they shouldn't be invloved with the GS. If they want to, that's fine as it is their right to do so. I even commented that what others have said about the OP possibly becoming a leader was a good idea.

Looks like my fear of not elaborating caused more of a problem then if I had just explained a little further

 

[cybrkitn]

cybrkitn...... Please don't feel like I am bashing you. I think it is your choice of words "shocking" and lack of explanation in that post that bothers most of us.
Please try to see it from our POV... GS is not a Christian organization. To hear that someone is "shocked" that non christains are allowed in GS(and may adapt the pledge to fit their beliefs) is very unsettling. To live in the "bible belt" as a non-Christian is very hard as it is. It is very difficult to find accepting groups,especially for home-schoolers such as my family. To hear that someone is "shocked" that our beliefs are not a problem for GS is upsetting.

No feeling of "bashing" here . Thanks for explaining in the way that you have. I elaborated a little futher in my reply to Robinb (I believe it's above this post). Hope it helps "clear the air".

 

[auntpolly]

JMO of course but you really have to wonder about an organization that was actually born of bigotry. Like, that's it's raison d'etre.

I'm sure there are some very nice people involved, but what the heck?

 

[Mrs.Toad]

I'd never even heard of the American Heritage Girls before this thread. When I saw the title, I just assumed it was a "knock-off" series trying to capitalize on the success of the AG dolls and books.

That was my first thought when I saw the thread title, too.

I was just shocked and taken back by it b/c I wasn't expecting to see that type of statement (it threw me there for a bit). I disagree with it and that's my personal feeling on it, but in no way am I telling other people that they shouldn't be invloved with the GS. If they want to, that's fine as it is their right to do so. I even commented that what others have said about the OP possibly becoming a leader was a good idea.

Cybrkitn, I'm not trying to bash your feelings, either, but just trying to understand, so I'm curious... If you disagree with letting girls substitute another word for "God" in the Girl Scout Promise, to more accurately respresent their personal beliefs, how else should it be handled? Should those who don't believe in God, or call Him by another name, not participate in Girl Scouts? Or should they pretend and promise to serve a God they don't believe in?

(Oh, and this isn't just a question for Cybrkitn, but anyone else who disagrees with GS in this matter.)

 

[TPCShauna]

I am always perplexed by people who don't think GS should allow "God" to be replaced/removed in the GS Promise.

I don't worship any God. I leave the word out when I say the Promise. All of my girls are Christian and they all include the word when they say the Promise. No one says anything about how I say the promise and I don't say anything about the way they say it. We all do our own thing.

Should I not be allowed to express (or not express as the case may be) my personal preferences if they don't affect anyone else? I don't feel that it is right that I be REQUIRED to make an oath that I don't believe in. If I couldn't modify the Promise to suit my beliefs, I probably wouldn't be a member of the organization which would mean that all of the girls I work with, have taught songs and games to and helped to grow would not have benefited from my knowledge and willingness to volunteer.

Is that a better alternative than just letting me leave out a word?

 

[cybrkitn]

That was my first thought when I saw the thread title, too.

Cybrkitn, I'm not trying to bash your feelings, either, but just trying to understand, so I'm curious... If you disagree with letting girls substitute another word for "God" in the Girl Scout Promise, to more accurately respresent their personal beliefs, how else should it be handled? Should those who don't believe in God, or call Him by another name, not participate in Girl Scouts? Or should they pretend and promise to serve a God they don't believe in?

(Oh, and this isn't just a question for Cybrkitn, but anyone else who disagrees with GS in this matter.)

I am always perplexed by people who don't think GS should allow "God" to be replaced/removed in the GS Promise.

I was going to answer, but it looks like TPCShauna beat me to it. Since they are not claiming to be Christian, why not just take the name out to make it more of a generalized Oath? One that is acceptable to everyone? I don't know, it just makes sense to me.

Why don't we just leave this off here instead of putting it under a microscope which seems to be happening. I'm not questioning those who disagree and have their own personal opinion with AHG compared to those who are questioning my personal opinion on the GS Oath statement. Thanks

 

[TPCShauna]

I was going to answer, but it looks like TPCShauna beat me to it. Since they are not claiming to be Christian, why not just take the name out to make it more of a generalized Oath? One that is acceptable to everyone? I don't know, it just makes sense to me.

I think you took my quote out of context. My whole point is that GS allows girls and adults to say the Promise the way THEY want to. The reason "God" is in the Promise is because part of GS is following your moral code. If your code includes God, you say it. If not, then you don't. No discrimination or need to make someone feel uncomfortable for their beliefs.

Personally, I appreciate GS's policy of inclusion and I'm proud to be a member of the organization.

 

[cybrkitn]

I think you took my quote out of context. My whole point is that GS allows girls and adults to say the Promise the way THEY want to. The reason "God" is in the Promise is because part of GS is following your moral code. If your code includes God, you say it. If not, then you don't. No discrimination or need to make someone feel uncomfortable for their beliefs.

Personally, I appreciate GS's policy of inclusion and I'm proud to be a member of the organization.

Oops, looks like I did . Sorry 'bout that. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[NotUrsula]

As an aside, I was amazed and dismayed when my neighbor told me that her 2 daughters were leaving GSA because their school troop does not camp or do any outdoor recreation. (I had volunteered to teach the girls target archery, as I did for DS' cub pack.) She told me that this troop's primary group activity outside of service events was SHOPPING!? She also told me that she had discovered that only designated "camping troops" camped these days, and that there isn't one convenient to our neighborhood.

Sheesh, how times have changed. 25 years ago we could camp rings around the boys when they were Cubs, because we got serious about camping skills much sooner than the boys did, and it wasn't optional -- every Girl Scout did it. I can remember putting up tents/fishing for dinner/cooking over open fires and laughing at brothers who slept on bedframes in cabins and ate chili that their leaders cooked on Coleman stoves. They got waited on, while we did it ourselves.

If this is true, isn't there some way to lobby GSA to go back to expecting a healthy ratio of outdoor recreation activities for ALL troops?

 

[Hannathy]

GSA has decided to make it almost impossible for someone to volunteer and help a troop or be a leader. They have got certification crazy and paper trail crazy. Everything you want to do has to be done with one of their trained "leaders" there. You would not be able to teach them archery unless their leader had attended about 12 hours of training. You can not even take the girls to a nature center and have a fire in a fire ring(you know like you have in the backyard) with out attending approximately 2 days of training. To camp the leader has to have attended their training that isn't held that often and I'm not sure if it is overnight but it does run 2 days. And I don't mean going out into the wilderness, this is for staying overnight at a campground. For a camping trip you need a first aid person and that means their training again and no a trained paramedic doesn't count unless they had their training. Many leaders do not have time to attend 3-6 different training sessions just to take the girls overnight so the troops do not get to do it. This is on top of the regular training that you need to attend just to be a leader. So they do things with the girls that don't require all the additional training.

 

[shirleyb]

GSA has decided to make it almost impossible for someone to volunteer and help a troop or be a leader. They have got certification crazy and paper trail crazy. Everything you want to do has to be done with one of their trained "leaders" there. You would not be able to teach them archery unless their leader had attended about 12 hours of training. You can not even take the girls to a nature center and have a fire in a fire ring(you know like you have in the backyard) with out attending approximately 2 days of training. To camp the leader has to have attended their training that isn't held that often and I'm not sure if it is overnight but it does run 2 days. And I don't mean going out into the wilderness, this is for staying overnight at a campground. For a camping trip you need a first aid person and that means their training again and no a trained paramedic doesn't count unless they had their training. Many leaders do not have time to attend 3-6 different training sessions just to take the girls overnight so the troops do not get to do it. This is on top of the regular training that you need to attend just to be a leader. So they do things with the girls that don't require all the additional training.

Yep, only one of the many reasons I am thrilled to be ending my GS leader career. I was a cub scout leader for 5 years and felt like I had a much better support structure behind me than with GS. With GS, I felt like I had to do it -- leader, treasurer, cookie mom, etc. Partly my fault because I allowed the other parents to get away with doing nothing. This year, I felt like they were making it even tougher to go on field trips -- I had to get copies of certificates of insurance for anyplace we wanted to go on a field trip. Yeah, that makes me want to take the girls someplace!

 

[TPCShauna]

GSA has decided to make it almost impossible for someone to volunteer and help a troop or be a leader. They have got certification crazy and paper trail crazy. Everything you want to do has to be done with one of their trained "leaders" there. You would not be able to teach them archery unless their leader had attended about 12 hours of training. You can not even take the girls to a nature center and have a fire in a fire ring(you know like you have in the backyard) with out attending approximately 2 days of training. To camp the leader has to have attended their training that isn't held that often and I'm not sure if it is overnight but it does run 2 days. And I don't mean going out into the wilderness, this is for staying overnight at a campground. For a camping trip you need a first aid person and that means their training again and no a trained paramedic doesn't count unless they had their training. Many leaders do not have time to attend 3-6 different training sessions just to take the girls overnight so the troops do not get to do it. This is on top of the regular training that you need to attend just to be a leader. So they do things with the girls that don't require all the additional training.

Your post might be applicable for your area/Council but it is not for mine. I am my official troop first-aider but I have two parents in my troop who are medical professionals that are qualified to act as our first-aider as well as a parent who is a kindergarten teacher with all-level First Aid certification that can be our designated first-aider as well. None of them have done our Council's first aid training. My DH and I both did Council's first-aid training and found it to be very convenient and inexpensive ($15) in relation to the Red Cross' training for example ($80.)

Yes, in our Council, you must attend Intro to Outdoor Skills and Troop Camp Certification training in order to take your girls camping. Intro to Outdoor Skills is a 5 hour class. Troop Camp Certification is 5 hours on one weekend followed by a one-night campout two weeks later. Once the courses are completed, leaders are not required to take them again. There are challenge options for individuals who are skilled and knowledgeable campers to pass on all of the requirements in lieu of the classes.

Honestly, having done the training, I can see why the requirement is there. In my class of 30 for Intro to Outdoor Skills and TCC, only 7 people knew how to tie standard knots, 3 were familiar with box ovens and solar cooking and less than half were familiar with the standards of Leave No Trace camping. Those leaders would not have been prepared to take their girls camping and teach them the tenets of the GS camping program. DH was an Eagle Scout and I've camped most of my life and we both learned how to do things the GS way. I also learned a lot of outdoor activities applicable for the age level of my girls as well as how to help THEM plan their camping trips (which is the whole purpose of GS - For Girls, By Girls).

My troop is the only one in our Service Unit that has even begun camping progression even though two other leaders have completed the training. My troop is also the only one with more than 2 girls who WANT to camp. Most of the other girls in my Service Unit aren't interested so their leaders don't push them. I did invite some of the other interested girls in our SU to train with and come on our trip so that they would have the chance to camp even though their troops don't want to. Most Councils will allow a Camp Certified adult to assist another troop with camping preparation if their leader is not certified.

I am a childless leader and I LOVE spending time with, mentoring and teaching my girls about the world around them. In all honesty, I appreciate that Council provides so many opportunities for training so that I have the chance to learn more about the developmental abilities, etc. of these girls since I don't have a child of my own to learn with. Also, as a Council trainer, I see training as an opportunity to provide a better program to my girls, not some odious chore that I dread (although I will be honest when saying that I don't like that the trainings start at 8:00am on Saturday mornings!)

 

[sha_lyn]

Honestly, having done the training, I can see why the requirement is there. In my class of 30 for Intro to Outdoor Skills and TCC, only 7 people knew how to tie standard knots, 3 were familiar with box ovens and solar cooking and less than half were familiar with the standards of Leave No Trace camping. Those leaders would not have been prepared to take their girls camping and teach them the tenets of the GS camping program. DH was an Eagle Scout and I've camped most of my life and we both learned how to do things the GS way. I also learned a lot of outdoor activities applicable for the age level of my girls as well as how to help THEM plan their camping trips (which is the whole purpose of GS - For Girls, By Girls).

The past weekend DD's troop sponsored the service unit mother/daughter camp-out. It amazed me how little many of the moms knew or understood about camping(in general much less the GS way). Many also had huge problems with rules. GSUSA doe not allow the girls to swim unless there is a GS certified lifeguard on duty. This was not our leaders rule, it is a national rule. The water at the lake was also very cold. The number one rule that kept being repeated all weekend was "you can not go in the lake at all, not a toe or a hand can go in. Touch the water and you will go home". On Sat we hiked one of the trails that leads to the beach (the swimming area was closed and there was a sign). The leader stated both before the hike and at the beach that the girls could not touch the water at all. A mom decided that since she was watching, her girls could was rocks in the water. Our leader told the mom they would have to leave the beach, but could stay for the weekend since the mom had told the girls it was OK. Their entire troop packed up and left.
Around that same time another troop walked up. They did not meet at the designated time to start the hike and arrived at the beach about 40 min after we did. Each mom and girl was carrying a large stick.Our leader told them that they were not allowed to carry sticks for hiking. It is a council rule, after a girl almost died when she was impaled in the throat with a stick during a hike. The entire troop turned around and left the beach and hiked back up the trail with their sticks. One mom was furious and said something like "first they can't get in the water, now they can't carry sticks, next thing you know we will be told not to breath".

The thing is you can bet that those would be the first ones the file a lawsuit if their daughters drowned or was impaled by a stick. The training and rules are there for a reason. It is not to make your life harder, it is to protect our daughters.

 

[sha_lyn]

forgot to mention the other things that really struck me
Even after explaining it to the over and over, many didn't understand why you don't store food in your tent, discard food trash near your campsite etc.
"trails" of food and mess were left all over the place, and we as the host troop ended up cleaning it all up.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

I was going to answer, but it looks like TPCShauna beat me to it. Since they are not claiming to be Christian, why not just take the name out to make it more of a generalized Oath? One that is acceptable to everyone? I don't know, it just makes sense to me.

It makes sense to me, too, but I bet it would cause a much, much, bigger uproar than the Girl Scouts just letting each person decide whether to skip or replace it individually. That's always the big argument against taking "under God" out of the pledge of allegience. "People who don't want to say it can just skip that part."

GSA has decided to make it almost impossible for someone to volunteer and help a troop or be a leader. They have got certification crazy and paper trail crazy. Everything you want to do has to be done with one of their trained "leaders" there. You would not be able to teach them archery unless their leader had attended about 12 hours of training. You can not even take the girls to a nature center and have a fire in a fire ring(you know like you have in the backyard) with out attending approximately 2 days of training. To camp the leader has to have attended their training that isn't held that often and I'm not sure if it is overnight but it does run 2 days. And I don't mean going out into the wilderness, this is for staying overnight at a campground. For a camping trip you need a first aid person and that means their training again and no a trained paramedic doesn't count unless they had their training. Many leaders do not have time to attend 3-6 different training sessions just to take the girls overnight so the troops do not get to do it. This is on top of the regular training that you need to attend just to be a leader. So they do things with the girls that don't require all the additional training.

Hmm, it must differ by council, because our training situation isn't that cumbersome. The classes are always 3-3.5 hours each, never a full day, are offered pretty regularly in various locations and many can be done via home study instead of sitting in a classroom (my fave way to do it!). Archery and horseback riding have minimum age requirements and requirements for instructors, but no leader training is required.

For overnights and camping, there are progressive classes based on where the troop is going. I can see where it could be overwhelming if a new leader starts with an older troop who is ready to camp outdoors. Since I started with Daisies, it was no biggie. The classes relate to the suggested progression of skills which are designed to help the girls progress slowly, from simply being away from mom and dad for a weekend, to learning to cook over a fire, to planning a trip farther away from home.

When you're with the troop for a while and you start them off slowly, it's just about a class a year, so no biggie, but like I said, I can see if you're stepping in to take over an older troop, you'd need to take a lot of classes, since each level of class is a prerequisite for the next.

Oh, and if the leader can't find the time to take the training, the troop can always do a mother-daughter or family camping trip. No training is required if each of the girls have a mom or dad there.

 

[fabshelly]

"American Heritage" is usually used by the righties as a catchphrase for WASP.