All of these school threads

[disney junky]

Just to clarify. Tenure does not protect incompetence, immorality, unlawful behavior and the like. It becomes the job of the administration and school board to enforce these things. It is then the job of the union to make sure that the teacher with tenure is given a fair hearing. False accusations are rampant in schools, and the more bizarre they are, the more press they create. As I have stated in other teacher threads, Pennsylvania lists all teachers who have had their teaching certificates revoked. There are dozens every year. It's public knowledge. If teachers in your area are not being monitored, don't expect an organization that they pay dues to to kick them out. That's not their purpose for existence. BTW, in PA college professors at the state run universities are also unionized.

 

[chobie]

As teachers we rely on our union representation because they are the ONLY people willing to speak up and fight for the pittance of salary and benefits we get. Without them the school boards and county officials and citizenry seem more than willing to sail us down the river without a paddle all the while blaming the teachers and schools for everything they can. It's never anyone else's fault or responsiblilty. I've even heard some people say that if we (teachers) wanted to be respected we should have chosen a different career

I have a master's degree.....and will soon begin work on my specialist degree. Other professionals with similar education levels have a sky-high opportunity for advancements in both salary and position. In my current district of employment my salary will cap at $45,000. No matter how much education I get or if I stay for 30 years. Hmmmmm
Kat

Yep. ITA.

Tenure, teachers unions, these are all red herrings. People want to be able to pay teachers crap wages, have the power to fire them everytime their little darling is offended, make them work endless hours for free etc

(Yes, I know there are a few isolated districts throughout the country that pay relatively good compared to the cost of living in that area-but those are few and far between)

I think most people honestly believe that teachers should be paying them for the privilege of having their wonderful child all day long. If every teacher was fired every time a parent complained about them, we would have no teachers. That is why they are given some job protection.

All tenure means is that the school district has to follow due process before firing a teacher. If teachers are burned out it is because of the constant teacher bashing. I hardly think a national witch hunt to fire all the teachers you can, simply because most people resent that they have absolutely no job protection, is going to improve things.


Let the flames begin.

 

[Galahad]

Maybe... but starting salary isn't always a fair comparison. What about a teacher with 10 years of experience compared to an engineer with the same experience

Oh, I agree. But the overriding belief is that teachers are all one step away from poverty. I think we do need to pay teachers more (in some cases a lot more), but that costs money so we'll need to do a great job at selling the importance to taxpayers because States and Local governments can't continue to try to deliver necessary services while also cutting taxes. (My parents were both teachers as is my sister.) I do, however, tire of the teacher-as-martyr spin. We all work hard and we are all stressed out and we all have hard jobs.

 

[Galahad]

Where is this teaching job located? DH would like to explore moving to another place to teach. With levies failing, etc, his job in the immediate future is depressing. He just now got to the mid-$40's with 10 yrs teaching and most of his Master's Degree credits done. In NE Ohio. Burbs of Cleveland.

Indianapolis (though not the IPS school district - one of the township public school districts). IPS (a large and largely failing district that's trying to rebuild itsef) is laying off over 100 teachers over the summer, so any openings in the surounding districts may very well be scooped up by those folks.

 

[declansdad]

I do, however, tire of the teacher-as-martyr spin. We all work hard and we are all stressed out and we all have hard jobs.

This is very true, however, most of us do not receive the public scrutiny that teachers do nor do we have to answer to the 100 or so people who think that they know how to do the job better than the teacher.

 

[CheshireVal]

I think most people honestly believe that teachers should be paying them for the privilege of having their wonderful child all day long. If every teacher was fired every time a parent complained about them, we would have no teachers. That is why they are given some job protection.

All tenure means is that the school district has to follow due process before firing a teacher. If teachers are burned out it is because of the constant teacher bashing. I hardly think a national witch hunt to fire all the teachers you can, simply because most people resent that they have absolutely no job protection, is going to improve things.

This is very true. All you have to do is look at some of the school/teacher threads that pop up on the Dis all-too-frequently to guess what would happen if tenure were done away with completely.

 

[castleview]

I do, however, tire of the teacher-as-martyr spin. We all work hard and we are all stressed out and we all have hard jobs.

Yes, but do you constantly hear how easy your job is and how cushy it is to have "four months" off and only work "5-6 hours a day"?

My DH is a unionized teacher and he would love to not have a union. However, it's too great a risk. If the politicians in his town had it their way, they would get rid of any teacher at top step and hire brand new ones right out of college in order to save money. It might make financial sense, but it wouldn't be beneficial to students to have all new teachers and no experienced ones to help. They would also cut several electives and AP courses because of the expense.

 

[brerrabbit]

Time to add my two cents. Please understand the points I make are from a totally different perspective and before you bash away understand I have a DW who works as a receptionist at our local Middle School and she gets paid next to nothing and treated worse.

The real reason from an economic perspective that teachers are not paid more is simple, its supply and demand. Know I know teachers work very hard and are very dedicated to their jobs. However, the school day for the child is a little less than seven hours and they spend some of that time in other classes so the teachers are actually with the kids in most cases six hours or less a day. Certainly teachers work at home grading papers and doing lesson plans and attend conferances outside of school. But lets face it Teachers work nine months a year with guareenteed time off at Christmas and Thanksgiving. Even with after school duties most teachers leave work by 4:00 every day. Most get there at around 7:30. The job for all its headaches has a lot of benifits. The pay is not great or should I say as good as other segments of the economy. If Teachers pay ever increased dramatically there would be a line of people trying to get all the jobs. Because as the pay goes up you automatically have a larger supply teachers salaries have to be controlled. Granted certain areas has teacher shortages each year but for the most part they always have enough.

Now the next question, could the education process be improved by higher pay and would the students benifit? Heck yes it would, but since education is run by the government when do you think thats going to happen? Name any government run program that you think is top notch. I can't. Because school funding is such a large expense dedicated taxing vehicles (such as property taxes) are earmarked for education. That means they are visible targets for tax protests. I don't like a lot of what my government does with my tax dollars but I can't link specific services to specific taxes in virtually any example except my property taxes to my school district. This makes it an easy target.

Everyone wants a great education for their children and will fight to get it. However at the same time every person fights to keep enough of what they earn to provide for those same children and so we are put in a very difficult place. Lower taxes but still give my little Johnnie the best education money can buy. Sure people say they would pay more for better education but in the end I have never seen the government through more money at something and actually wind up fixing it.

 

[Rafiki Rafiki Rafiki]

I didn't read all the opinions, but I think I kindof disagree with you, Alex.

I see so many kids who are completely burned out by age 15 from so much traditional school. We send them to school at 7:30 or 8 in the morning and pick them up around 3. During that time, they've probably spent a good 45 minutes WAITING around to either change classes, waiting in line for food or whatever, or waiting for the teacher to get ready. Then, if they're under about 10, they have spent an hour in recess. Add to that the time they wait for all the kids who just don't get it in the class, the kids who have disrupted class for behavior problems, and all the other garbage...it seems like a big waste of time to me...especially after I have to get up, pack a lunch, dress a kid or two, drive them to school, and then wait 20 minutes in carpool line every afternoon.

I think summer offers valuable time for memories to be made. It gives families much-needed time together, and it gives most kids an opportunity to learn something thru an extra-curricular activity like camp, drama lessons, or whatever.

There is so much more to be learned in life than our kids get in the classroom. I homeschooled my daughter this year...and I know what she has learned and hasn't learned. I know her strengths and weaknesses. I know that she'll be prepared when she returns to traditional school next year...and mostly, I've had time to get to know her better than I ever thought possible.

It seems like we expect our school teachers to teach way too many kids...and unless a kid is incredibly smart or incredibly bad, they don't get the one on one attention they deserve.

 

[Christine]

actually for a lot of jobs in the federal government that is not always true. most junior/mid level government employees make a great deal more than their counterparts in the private for profit sector.

i work at a for profit and i make about $15-20K less than most people at my level in the federal government in govt agencies/departments. however at the senior level, most people in the private sector make more than federal govt employees with the same experience/education.

THANK YOU Caity!!! As I sit here across the street from my government counterpart who probably makes $20,000 more than I do and has tons more leave and bennies! The government employees don't have a "bid rate" to adhere to like they hold their contractors to!

Also, several of my friends are engineers in the government, they are in their early 40s, have been in civil service for 15+ years and are making over the $100,000 mark (they are GS-14s and 15s). Alternatively, my best friend crossed over 5 years ago from contractor to civil service, has no degree, but is a ball of fire and has just gotten her 14.

 

[MinnieM3]

Wow, $42,000 to START with no experience and a bachelor's degree? I've never heard of that! Everyone will want to move to Indianapolis to teach! I had JUST reached (almost!) that mark WITH a Master's and 16 years of experience. Show me an engineer (or a nurse, or an accountant, etc.)with a Master's and 16 years under his/her belt and making $40,000. Nurses here do start at around $40,000.

Every job does have its pros and cons for sure. But teachers do have it a bit different from most. We spend our day on stage for 24 or so to observe every minute of every work day. We can't "close our office door" for a little break....even for 5 minutes. We can't go to the bathroom when we'd like. If we do go, we better be quick. We can't leave work if we don't feel well in the middle of the day. We can't come in to work 15 late and stay 15 minutes later to make up for it. We eat lunch with our students in 15 minutes. At my school, (and no other one I know) there is no HOUR for recess. We have 20 minutes, that includes walking to, lining up, and walking back. We can't call in sick and do double work the next day or just have other co-workers pick up the slack. If we're not there, we must find a replacement or else go in, on time and ready to perform all day. We can't take vacation whenever we want to. It's dictated....always holidays or summer. We deal every day with the most precious commodity in people's lives....their children. We must watch how we dress, what we say, how we act, etc. because our influence in far reaching.

We also (at least in SC) have to take 2 3-hour courses within 5 years to keep out certificates current. These courses have to be taken after work (like 5 til 8pm or 7 til 10 pm) or over the summer. Both of the courses I'm taking this summer run for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks! That is standard. I'm not even sure doctors have to do that much. DH is a pharmacist and has to keep his license renewed yearly. His renewal usually consists of a 4 hour lecture and a free lunch. And he's done for the year!

I had another career in the private section before getting into education and it was SOOO much easier!! However, teaching is what I LOVE and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Again, all jobs have pros and cons, but I'm not sure everyone thinks of these few things that are standard in a teacher's day.

 

[vettechick99]

As once a civilian and now a teacher, I absolutely agree that kids need more school and teachers need more pay (mama needs a new car!!). Why are we so far behind other countries in education? Because they school til 5 and don't have summers off!

You can really tell where our (the US) priorities are.

 

[chobie]

Keep in mind that Galahad's mind-boggling salary included the stiped that the teacher will receive for the outside of school day responsibilties of being a music teacher. My DH is a high school band teacher. For all the after school practices, summer band camp, football games, basketball games, concerts, festivals, competetitions etc he recieves a stipend of $3500 a year.

One year I kept a journal of how many hours he worked outside of the school day for that and divided by the pay. Came out to about less than a dollar an hour. This was the same exact stipend paid by two different districts in two different states.

Yep, those teachers are just rolling in dough.

 

[Galahad]

Wow, $42,000 to START with no experience and a bachelor's degree? I've never heard of that!

Yes. Remember I said including the "coach-like" responsibilities. Music teachers have a lot of night and weekend responsiblities. AND it's High School. The base for the position is $37,000 or $38,000 and then add another $4,000 or so for the other responsiblities (band or orchestra camp, middle school visits, etc.). In this district, all H.S. performing arts teachers have roughly the same "extra" stuff that a coach would have. A History teacher than is also a track coach, for example, would get some extra $$ for being the coach.

 

[Galahad]

One year I kept a journal of how many hours he worked outside of the school day for that and divided by the pay. Came out to about less than a dollar an hour. This was the same exact stipend paid by two different districts in two different states.

Yep, those teachers are just rolling in dough.

But again, lots of us work long hours for no extra money. $42K for a salary position, even if you have to work a lot, is nothing to sneeze at in the midwest. I think teachers are underpaid. But they aren't poverty stricken, they aren't saints and they aren't martyrs. I work all of the above mentioned events at my son's H.S. as a volunteer - with student related responsiblities assiting the directors and I don't get paid a dime.

BTW, if your stipend is $3500, there is no way you're working 3500 extra hours. There are only 2080 work hours in a typical year of 8 hour days. So even working 16 hours a day all year long would only add 2000 or so hours.

 

[chobie]

Yes. Remember I said including the "coach-like" responsibilities. Music teachers have a lot of night and weekend responsiblities. AND it's High School. The base for the position is $37,000 or $38,000 and then add another $4,000 or so for the other responsiblities (band or orchestra camp, middle school visits, etc.). In this district, all H.S. performing arts teachers have roughly the same "extra" stuff that a coach would have. A History teacher than is also a track coach, for example, would get some extra $$ for being the coach.

And aside from the stipend the amount is only the base salary? Your not inlcuding the money that is paid by the district towards medical benefits or anything like that?

And at what salary does the scale end? Usually when a school district offers such "high" starting salaries (and the one you mentioned is quite high compared to most districts) they do it by topping out the salary at a wage not much higher than the starting salary.

 

[chobie]

But again, lots of us work long hours for no extra money. $42K for a salary position, even if you have to work a lot, is nothing to sneeze at in the midwest. I think teachers are underpaid. But they aren't poverty stricken, they aren't saints and they aren't martyrs. I work all of the above mentioned events at my son's H.S. as a volunteer - with student related responsiblities assiting the directors and I don't get paid a dime.

BTW, if your stipend is $3500, there is no way you're working 3500 extra hours. There are only 2080 work hours in a typical year of 8 hour days. So even working 16 hours a day all year long would only add 2000 or so hours.

You forgot about summer band camp. That adds on many extra hours. And yes, he typically does put in 16 hour days 3 or 4 times a week. Then comes home and answers phone calls from parents. Puts in many weekends. And oh yeah, all the overnight trips where he maybe gets to sleep about 3- or 4 hours when he is not patrolling the halls of the hotel or dealing with some type of emergency with a student.

And the time you volunteer for your child... is well FOR YOUR CHILD! The extra hours my DH puts in is also for your child and everyone else's at the expense of his own children. So, that comparison is completely specious.

EDA: When I figured out how much he made, I subtracted the amount he spent out of pocket on things like buying kids meals who forgot to bring money, paying for a kid here or there to go on an overnight trip when their parents couldn't afford it, getting an instrument fixed at the last minute before a concert(which the school would not reimburse because he had not put in a work order for it which would have taken weeks to have recieived and the concert was like in a day or two).

Yes, I told him to stop being a martyr too and just let the kids suffer, but you know those stupid teachers!

 

[Galahad]

And aside from the stipend the amount is only the base salary? Your not inlcuding the money that is paid by the district towards medical benefits or anything like that?

And at what salary does the scale end? Usually when a school district offers such "high" starting salaries (and the one you mentioned is quite high compared to most districts) they do it by topping out the salary at a wage not much higher than the starting salary.

The amount does not include benefits.

I don't know the whole scale but the current director came out of retirement for a year to fill a void. He had 40+ years in before coming back and he's at the top of the scale - has a masters plus, etc. and he's paid well over 70K. It is his first and only year with this particular district.

The 37K for a secondary school teacher is typical of urban school districts in this state. It's lower in our rural districts and we have a LOT more rural distrcits that urban ones (takes a lot of land to produce all that popcorn ).

 

[Galahad]

You forgot about summer band camp. That adds on many extra hours. And yes, he typically does put in 16 hour days 3 or 4 times a week. Then comes home and answers phone calls from parents. Puts in many weekends. And oh yeah, all the overnight trips where he maybe gets to sleep about 3- or 4 hours when he is not patrolling the halls of the hotel or dealing with some type of emergency with a student.

And the time you volunteer for your child... is well FOR YOUR CHILD! The extra hours my DH puts in is also for your child and everyone else's at the expense of his own children. So, that comparison is completely specious.

I do not volunteer for my child. I almost never see my child when volunteering. I am on the board of the performing arts association with a term than ends long after my child graduates. The comparison is far from specious. I work 50 hours a week at my regular job and am at the school countless hours with everyone else's children. Again i say, teachers are no more martyrs than I am.

Our band directors get paid separately for band camp etc.

Edited to add that whether or not their is a band camp is entirely up to the band directors as is whether they compete in contests, etc.

 

[chobie]

I do not volunteer for my child. I almost never see my child when volunteering. I am on the board of the performing arts association with a term than ends long after my child graduates. The comparison is far from specious. I work 50 hours a week at my regular job and am at the school countless hours with everyone else's children. Again i say, teachers are no more martyrs than I am.

Our band directors get paid separately for band camp etc.

Again though, you are volunteering. Most teachers are forced one way or another to put in these extra hours with no pay and would much rather spend that time with their own children.

As for your band teachers, that is great they get paid extra for band camp--they should. But for most bandteachers it is an expectation they do this and they are not paid separatly-- it all rolls into the one piddly stipend.

MY DH in two districts, in two states had no choice about doing those extra things it was written into his job description and if he did not do them he could be fired and it would go into his evalautions.