Advice needed! Room canceled accidentally

Can you make a reservation if you're delinquent? The reservation was made in December, so it seems difficult to be delinquent on last year's dues at that point in time. The whole story just doesn't add up.

If I'm a non BWV owner who wants that reservation for Food and Wine - and my dues are current - I sure hope they are cancelling reservations by June in favor of people who actually pay their bills. That's only fair to the other members.

Lots of this story doesn't add up, and we only know what the renters said David said the member said Disney said. That's a long chain for effective communication even if everyone in the story is telling the truth as they understand it.
 
David's is only getting bad press with the folks who didn't read or understand the terms of his contract. My opinion of David's business has not been changed by these reports and I suspect many others feel the same way. David has more requests for reservations than he can fill. If he loses some business over this I don't think it will be an issue for him. And where are those people going to go since the other brokers operate under the same terms and renting privately from an individual is even more risky since you could lose both your reservation and your money.

On the contrary, with social media the way it is, David's is getting bad press with anyone who reads reviews, blogs, facebook pages, etc. Retreating to the legal wording of his contract is very bad press and a bad business decision. I know he's already lost a lot of customers (both Owners and Renters, I am both) since these two issues have come to light (and there could be more then those two since it's quite possible other renters are not on this board).

The solution to this problem, as I pointed out, is not something that would have cost him thousands of dollars. In fact, considering what he makes off a contract, he'd still have come close to breaking even on the two deals.

Let's take a look at the cydswipe's example :
Extra cost to upgrade from Studio to 1BR Oct 11-15: $96
Cost of 2 nights not covered by above at All-Star Music Oct 9-11: $280.24
Total Cost $376.24

Now, let's look at what David's is making: 112 points at SSR @ $2.75/point = $308.00

Therefore the total cost to David's would have been $68.24 to turn this from a bad press situation to a good press situation.
 
You are missing that David is already out half the cost of the reservation. And doesn't need good press - he has more business than he can service. So, again, what's in it for him? And I suspect that he won't see any noticeable drop in business - people can save 70% off the cost of a room with Disney for a very small amount of risk - and with David, no risk to the thousands of dollars they could stand to loose without him involved. Frankly, if the worst thing that happens to the vacation is that people stay offsite or in a moderate instead of at the Boardwalk for those sorts of savings, I don't think that will change people's behavior significantly.
 
I'm reasonably certain that David can recover that money from the member. Think about this; if you sue someone, you can seize or place a lien on non-exempt assets. The DVC contract is a non-exempt asset. There are legal remedies available.
 

On the contrary, with social media the way it is, David's is getting bad press with anyone who reads reviews, blogs, facebook pages, etc. Retreating to the legal wording of his contract is very bad press and a bad business decision. I know he's already lost a lot of customers (both Owners and Renters, I am both) since these two issues have come to light (and there could be more then those two since it's quite possible other renters are not on this board).

The solution to this problem, as I pointed out, is not something that would have cost him thousands of dollars. In fact, considering what he makes off a contract, he'd still have come close to breaking even on the two deals.

Let's take a look at the cydswipe's example :
Extra cost to upgrade from Studio to 1BR Oct 11-15: $96
Cost of 2 nights not covered by above at All-Star Music Oct 9-11: $280.24
Total Cost $376.24

Now, let's look at what David's is making: 112 points at SSR @ $2.75/point = $308.00

Therefore the total cost to David's would have been $68.24 to turn this from a bad press situation to a good press situation.

How did you compute the cost highlighted in red?
 
cydswipe posted the email that was received from David's which included the fact that only SSR 1 bedroom was currently avail at this point and would cost and additional $96 (and was for 2 nights shorter than original trip booked)
Found it (page 2of thread)....
"I have checked alternate availability at all of the DVC Resorts and the only remaining option is at Saratoga Springs in a 1 bedroom villa from Oct. 11-15th (missing your first 2 nights) which is 112 vacation points. If you wanted to proceed with this option (provided that availability remains) we can apply your previous payment of $1472 towards the new reservation but it would be an additional cost of $96. If this alternative does not work for your family we can refund your original payment back to you immediately as stated in the Rental Agreement. "
 
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cydswipe posted the email that was received from David's which included the fact that only SSR 1 bedroom was currently avail at this point and would cost and additional $96 (and was for 2 nights shorter than original trip booked)
Found it (page 2of thread)....
"I have checked alternate availability at all of the DVC Resorts and the only remaining option is at Saratoga Springs in a 1 bedroom villa from Oct. 11-15th (missing your first 2 nights) which is 112 vacation points. If you wanted to proceed with this option (provided that availability remains) we can apply your previous payment of $1472 towards the new reservation but it would be an additional cost of $96. If this alternative does not work for your family we can refund your original payment back to you immediately as stated in the Rental Agreement. "


There has been a response from David to my review on David's Vacation Club facebook page. There are many issues being brought up here that would help potential customers make a decision on whether or not they'd like to pursue business with David's. I think the conversation may be of interest to you there. I appreciate your insight.... this applies to everyone.. whether or not we agree with the outcome. Thank you for being respectful as we've discussed this. I am still learning.
 
There has been a response from David to my review on David's Vacation Club facebook page. There are many issues being brought up here that would help potential customers make a decision on whether or not they'd like to pursue business with David's. I think the conversation may be of interest to you there. I appreciate your insight.... this applies to everyone.. whether or not we agree with the outcome. Thank you for being respectful as we've discussed this. I am still learning.
At least you got an answer. What are you going to do now?
 
I'm reasonably certain that David can recover that money from the member. Think about this; if you sue someone, you can seize or place a lien on non-exempt assets. The DVC contract is a non-exempt asset. There are legal remedies available.

I'm not even reasonably certain that the owner lives in the U.S. and that you could put a lien against a foreign held asset. I'm not reasonably certain that the owner hasn't declared bankruptcy, in which case disposition of assets are in the hands of the bankruptcy court. I'm not reasonably certain that the costs involved in collecting would not exceed the costs of the money recovered. I'm not reasonably certain that Disney doesn't have a better claim to recoup their dues in the case of this asset than David will. I'm not EVEN reasonably certain that the owner in question still owns the asset and this wasn't a case of "we owned it a few months ago, but its been sold and that's the REAL reason that the reservations were cancelled."
 
Does anyone remember the guy who filed for bankruptcy a couple of years ago w/ a lot of rented DVC vacations coming up? As I recall even those people where able to take their vacations.
It's hard for me to believe someone would be so mean and vicious as to ruin a vacation that's been planned 10+ months in advance.

I hope it's truly a mistake on the owners part. I had mentioned in another post... I'm constantly scared I might make that mistake of canceling a rental ressie when mucking around my dvc site. I can't imagine someone being so evil as to consciously ruin ppls vacations....
I don't think the deadbeat owner sees it in those terms. I'm guessing they are seeing it from a purely selfish perspective, it's the 'me me me entitlement' attitude that I seem to see more and more of. They took 1/2 the rental money which would have paid all of the January dues for the villas rented and spent it elsewhere. They should never have offered the points to rent if they were in dire financial straits. At a minimum they should have notified David's when they were unable to pay their dues and started getting warning notices from DVC so as to give the victims more time to make other arrangements. Instead they ignored the collection efforts probably hoping to steal from Peter to pay Paul. Sorry, if they were truly contrite or had a sudden financial crisis they would have notified David's when it arose which would have been well before cancellation.

It's a reservation for October, which was made "10 months in advance" according to the posts here. That would be December, when dues statements for this year came out. There's really no excuse. They rented out the points so they could pay the dues; if they used the money for anything else, then it's just outright stealing.

I think what gets me the more i read this is that the word "accidentally canceled."
Yes, that's the language in the 2 emails which irked me - it was no "accident" and it certainly was not DVC's fault - so David's shouldn't be throwing them under the bus. They need to own their issue - we rented from a shady character, we know this happens, it's covered in your contract and here's your refund - good luck - not, 'oh the poor owner spent all day trying to correct DVC's mistake.' The troubling part of this is if David's position is that it is a DVC screw up will they use this owner's points again because they think it was a DVC 'accident' and not the owner's fault for trying to juggle past due bills.

Nope, this is just going to be a risk of renting through anyone.

There are levels of risk to any vacation plan. Even with a room reservation through Disney, there is a chance that rooms will get overbooked, or a block of rooms will need to be taken out of service due to a fire or some other reason - and what you book you will not get. People booking Adventures by Disney trips in 2009 saw a lot of trips cancelled due to low participation, and people who cruise have seen their cruises cancelled due to Norwalk. Disney does what David does - refunds your money and says "sorry."
Booking rooms are subject to very strict statues generally referred to as innkeepers laws which prohibits hoteliers from simply refunding your money, which is why they must find comparable accommodation if they can't accommodate you (I recall being walked once in Honolulu and refused the first room offered as not comparable.) Disney cannot just refund your money for a booked room. Their options with cancelling other vacations would depend on the terms of the contract of course.

I've seen a trend with responses to people seeking advice regarding renting DVC points to recommend brokers as being safer - this scenario (eg the deadbeat owner) probably needs to be added as a possible risk when people respond to these queries. Brokers are still safer in that you get your money back v. private rentals, but there's still uncertainty about whether you'll have a room up to and until you are checked in, I guess and if your villa is gone you are on your own scrambling to find alternate accommodations.
 
Booking rooms are subject to very strict statues generally referred to as innkeepers laws which prohibits hoteliers from simply refunding your money, which is why they must find comparable accommodation if they can't accommodate you (I recall being walked once in Honolulu and refused the first room offered as not comparable.) Disney cannot just refund your money for a booked room. Their options with cancelling other vacations would depend on the terms of the contract of course.

That's state law and its far from universal. And there is a lot of room in "comparable accomodations" - I've been moved from a rather nice Hilton to rather run down Wyndam. But they were comparable in being both in the same part of town and both having a bed. (The Hilton did refund the difference). It also doesn't apply to timeshares in some states, that have different accommodation laws.
 
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I've read a few posts here on how they wouldn't recommend David any more. Do other brokers offer better compensation if the deal goes south? If not, you should just not be recommending any of these services not just singling out this one company.
It is what it is. My opinion has long been that a well researched private owner is better because of the direct relationship and fact that the brokers offer no flexibility. Still, we've seen posts here from people who felt that a renter should get a refund in a non refundable contract just because they had a sad story.

Here here....Seems that David's might need a business model change. Or at least a stronger contract with the owner's they deal with. The other thing going through my mind is unscrupulous owners putting ressies for sale through broker's, receiving half the funds, then canceling and keeping the money. Seems the brokers need ot find a way to stop that from happening or they are open to a lot of risk.

Maybe a system where ALL the funds go into escrow until the ressie commences.
Maybe, independent escrows have their own issues, I won't use them because the rent can make claims, even if not true, that get them a refund for many situations.

And it's not commercial to use a broker that rents out many more reservations that any one of us could?
I personally think it is and have said so here on DIS. But unless DVD puts their legal team in that direction, it makes no difference.

I'm reasonably certain that David can recover that money from the member. Think about this; if you sue someone, you can seize or place a lien on non-exempt assets. The DVC contract is a non-exempt asset. There are legal remedies available.
You can't get blood out of a turnip. certainly if you're willing to spend a few thousand and someone has real worth, you might have a chance of getting something. About the most you can hope for is they own a home and you can get a lien that might make them want to pay to sell it or refi. This isn't playing like someone that has money and is an idiot or just mean, it's feeling like someone who's broke and about to lose what they own. IMO it's not worth the potential cost to go this route and the chance of getting money, even with a legal win, is about zero to 10¢ on the dollar.
 
That's state law and its far from universal. And there is a lot of room in "comparable accomodations" - I've been moved from a rather nice Hilton to rather run down Wyndam. But they were comparable in being both in the same part of town and both having a bed. (The Hilton did refund the difference). It also doesn't apply to timeshares in some states, that have different accommodation laws.
Yes, it varies widely from state to state although the origins are in English common law, and comparable is one of those conveniently vague terms, my response was to clarify that if Disney couldn't accommodate a cash room reservation they couldn't just refund the money as they have a statutory duty to provide shelter, I didn't mean to imply that timeshares were governed by the same statutes.
 
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Just like any major bill you know when your money is due. So even for someone to say they didn't get anythnig in the mail you know.

Actually not always. We almost missed the due date for the dues on our new points. I bought an extra 40 VGF points this year and it took Disney ages to sort it our like 10 weeks ages. I never got the original paperwork until after I had to pay so the amount I paid them was received from them on a voicemail on my phone. I thought it included dues turns out it didn't.

DVC did not send me a letter telling me how much dues were or an invoice. What they did was post them on to my DVCmember account with a due date of sometime in May. I only saw it because I went online to play with availability. I had no real reason to be on the site.

So I paid mine on time but I could very well have accidentally put myself in the situation where my dues were in arrears. Had I not noticed before June what would have happened to my two rental reservations in June... I hope DVC would have called or emailed me before doing anything and given me the chance to sort it out but luckily I noticed it myself before it got there. Even in good faith mistakes can be made.

As for the owner noone has heard directly from this owner and he/she has already been namecalled. I think I read deadbeat. We actually do not know, he/she could have been recently killed in a car crash, he/she could have had his/her home repossessed and be in so much stress can't come out from under, he/she could be seriously ill or have a child that is seriously ill. He/she could just be in serious financial trouble. Or they could be a deadbeat. I think it is harsh to judge and namecall anyone without knowing fully what is going on which isn't going to happen in this case. Maybe I have too much faith in human nature but I can't see someone doing something like this out of malice and I can't see an owner doing this for the financila gain of $750. It is more likely someone is facing a pretty difficult set of circumstances themselves. I know we are all grown ups and responsible for our own actions but sometimes we end up faced with situtations that are out of our ability to control and to cope.
 
?..
As for the owner noone has heard directly from this owner and he/she has already been namecalled. I think I read deadbeat. We actually do not know, he/she could have been recently killed in a car crash, ...
I think we can safely rule out the owner being recently killed in a car crash since David's email to the first victim to report clearly said the owner spent all day trying to 'correct DVC's mistake,' which presumably means we have a still living owner.
 
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So...I'm putting two things together here, and it might be totally off, and that's fine. But I'm thinking of this situation (both situations) and also the thread elsewhere that started yesterday about a HUGE glitch with Disney Vacation Account taking money from peoples' bank accounts on days when it is NOT supposed to come out. Someone had it refunded yesterday and then it was taken out again today. Lots of people are having money taken out inappropriately.

It's probably offbase because isn't DVA run by Chase? But...IF the issue about the dues going to x when they were meant to go to y is true, and IF DVA isn't actually run by Chase but by Disney...couldn't that mean something really really funky is happening in the Disney systems?

Makes me wonder what people will be posting about tomorrow?

But I'm probably totally wrong.
 
I think we can safely rule out the owner being recently killed in a car crash since David's email to the first victim to report clearly said the owner spent all day trying to 'correct DVC's mistake,' which presumably means we have a still living owner.

Ok maybe I exaggerated but I didn't expect it to be taken so literally I just meant we don't know so shouldn't assume the worst and name call.
 
You are missing that David is already out half the cost of the reservation. And doesn't need good press - he has more business than he can service. So, again, what's in it for him? And I suspect that he won't see any noticeable drop in business - people can save 70% off the cost of a room with Disney for a very small amount of risk - and with David, no risk to the thousands of dollars they could stand to loose without him involved. Frankly, if the worst thing that happens to the vacation is that people stay offsite or in a moderate instead of at the Boardwalk for those sorts of savings, I don't think that will change people's behavior significantly.

EVERY business needs good press. If the business doesn't believe that they are incredibly naive. Even if they happen to be naive EVERY business should want to avoid BAD press.
 
Ok maybe I exaggerated but I didn't expect it to be taken so literally I just meant we don't know so shouldn't assume the worst and name call.
Nope, I'm sticking with "deadbeat," "fraud," or even "thief." This member was paid for the rental at the same time maintenance fees were due. The member chose to use the money for something else. They booked a reservation that would not be honored unless they kept up their end of the deal, and they purposefully use the money for something else.

Unless the story about DVC screwing up is true. But DVC would fix the problem if they had actually screwed up. So I'm sticking with "fraud." I think that's the most accurate.
 
EVERY business needs good press. If the business doesn't believe that they are incredibly naive. Even if they happen to be naive EVERY business should want to avoid BAD press.

Actually, I used to work in corporate communications - I'm far from naive about this - these sorts of decisions, to manage bad press, are ROI based. I don't know the details of David's business (and I'm guessing you don't either), but as someone who has done this calculation - sometimes you eat the bad press because its cheaper than setting a long term precedent.
 
















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