Advice needed! Room canceled accidentally

[SmilingGrump]

The whole point of going through a third party broker instead of dealing with an owner directly is to avoid these kinds of problems. What's the point of using a broker like David's if they do nothing but try to upsell when there's a problem?
The business model for brokers is that they give a trustworthy alternative to dealing direct, where there is a large measure of trust on behalf of the renter that the reservation was actually made. However, that trust that the broker supposedly holds is quickly eroded when cases like this come along and they offer no suitable alternative.
Yes, I realize the studios were all booked up once these original reservations were cancelled, but offering alternatives that don't include all the days and require additional funds is quite simply a horrible business practice. The bad press David's is getting is easily worth the cost of making these reservations right. And by that I mean covering the extra $96 and finding alternative lodging for the missing nights (ie at a Value or Moderate). THAT would create loyal customers who tell others instead of customer who will never use them again and will make sure to tell everyone they know.

 

[robinb]

We are just jolted this happened to us.

Yup. Plenty of people go with David because they feel safer renting from him over regular DVC owners. Now we know that all the fears they have can happen under David's care as well. I guess the good news is that the people who lost their reservations are not out their money too.

 

[LisaS]

It's hard for me to believe someone would be so mean and vicious as to ruin a vacation that's been planned 10+ months in advance.

I hope it's truly a mistake on the owners part. I had mentioned in another post... I'm constantly scared I might make that mistake of canceling a rental ressie when mucking around my dvc site. I can't imagine someone being so evil as to consciously ruin ppls vacations....

I don't think it was an evil act on the part of the owner. It sounds like the owner is in financial trouble and unable to pay their dues. For all we know the owner may have lost his/her job or is dealing with medical bills. Based on what we know I don't see any reason to assume the owner did this on purpose.

 

[crisi]

The whole point of going through a third party broker instead of dealing with an owner directly is to avoid these kinds of problems. What's the point of using a broker like David's if they do nothing but try to upsell when there's a problem?
The business model for brokers is that they give a trustworthy alternative to dealing direct, where there is a large measure of trust on behalf of the renter that the reservation was actually made. However, that trust that the broker supposedly holds is quickly eroded when cases like this come along and they offer no suitable alternative.
Yes, I realize the studios were all booked up once these original reservations were cancelled, but offering alternatives that don't include all the days and require additional funds is quite simply a horrible business practice. The bad press David's is getting is easily worth the cost of making these reservations right. And by that I mean covering the extra $96 and finding alternative lodging for the missing nights (ie at a Value or Moderate). THAT would create loyal customers who tell others instead of customer who will never use them again and will make sure to tell everyone they know.

What David offers is that if this happens, you'll quickly get a full refund. If this happens with a direct owner rental, you aren't likely to ever see your money again.

David's model has the renter paying in full up front. The owner gets half when the reservation is made, and the other half once the stay starts. He holds that half in escrow. If, for some reason, the owner flakes, they don't get paid their half (less chance of them flaking) AND David makes good on the half paid out - probably out of pocket since he's unlikely to recover what he paid out months ago.

When this same sort of thing happens with a direct reservation, your money is gone. You can try to sue, but you aren't likely to recover.

However, there is nothing magical to David's system. He doesn't have a special inventory of rooms to pull from if someone flakes out. He doesn't control the reservation. He can't make sure that dues are paid or the owner doesn't sell out (another thing that will cancel the reservation). His contract with the owner states they'll do none of these things - but if they do, he really has no recourse himself, except court, where he's unlikely to get much back if anything. People who think there is more to it than that haven't read the contracts David provides and don't understand the system.

As to trust issues, well, David has more people looking to rent than points available to rent out. He's on a constant search for owners. Some will continue to see the value in what services he CAN provide - a LOWER risk situation that gets you a great room at a cost MUCH reduced than Disney. Since he is the middleman in these transactions, his fixed costs aren't huge - he'll do fine.

When this happens with owners it is often because they have reached a financial crisis. They are renting their points trying to hold onto DVC, but if they don't have the cash to pay dues, the rental disappears. I'd lay odds that this is one owner, and a BIG financial crisis - like losing their home big.

Its a shame that some people's vacation plans are getting caught up in this, but money will be returned and its a vacation. We have no idea what is going on at the other end - job loss, illness, death, divorce - or someone running a con game.

 

[supersnoop]

I don't think it was an evil act on the part of the owner. It sounds like the owner is in financial trouble and unable to pay their dues. For all we know the owner may have lost his/her job or is dealing with medical bills. Based on what we know I don't see any reason to assume the owner did this on purpose.

Eh. I'd expect the owner to use the proceeds from the rental to pay the dues before anything else. Using the money for anything else before the dues were paid is just irresponsible, no matter their other obligations.

 

[crisi]

Eh. I'd expect the owner to use the proceeds from the rental to pay the dues before anything else. Using the money for anything else before the dues were paid is just irresponsible, no matter their other obligations.

More irresponsible than losing your house and having your children be homeless? More irresponsible than not being able to pay your medical bills? Its even possible they didn't have a choice - that they intended to pay the dues, but the court has a hold on assets for some reason.

 

[LisaS]

Eh. I'd expect the owner to use the proceeds from the rental to pay the dues before anything else. Using the money for anything else before the dues were paid is just irresponsible, no matter their other obligations.

It's possible the owner is totally irresponsible but it's also possible that they did use the rental proceeds to pay their dues back in 2014 when these reservations were made. Maybe they even paid something towards the 2015 dues as well but then their financial situation worsened and they couldn't bring the 2015 dues up to date causing the reservations to be cancelled.

How many times have there been posts here on the DIS where someone states that they need to sell their DVC contract(s) due to financial issues and they are encouraged to consider renting their points out for a few years rather than selling their contracts. Imagine someone follows that advice but then their financial problems get even worse and they are about to lose their house or they are getting harassing phone calls from debt collectors due to unpaid medical bills.

I think this is so unfortunate for the renters who have had their vacation plans torn apart by this. But I don't see how we can jump to any conclusions about the DVC owner without knowing the facts.

 

[sasmmb]

I just got word of this thread from my husband. We learned 24 hours ago that our reservation was also "accidently" cancelled by the owner. After 3 conversations and getting NO WHERE with David's vacation rental...we got our refund as stated in the rental agreement. However, there is no way in hell we will get a preferred room around the lagoon the week of Columbus Day and Food and Wine festival for $1482. After reading your situation, I am even more pissed about our situation

Wow again! Now I'm mad for the both of us. And yes that was the same exact response. Almost feels like a form letter now.

I still think David's can get their money without suing since they are a business they can just send it to a collections agency. No guarantees of course but that does often work.

As for the member who assumably didn't pay their dues, yes I'm calling them irresponsible. When they realized the reservations were going to be cancelled it was their responsibility to call David's and let them know of the situation. Perhaps David's could have found another member with points and could have coordinated a cancellation / new booking, or some other option.

 

[supersnoop]

It's possible the owner is totally irresponsible but it's also possible that they did use the rental proceeds to pay their dues back in 2014 when these reservations were made. Maybe they even paid something towards the 2015 dues as well but then their financial situation worsened and they couldn't bring the 2015 dues up to date causing the reservations to be cancelled.

How many times have there been posts here on the DIS where someone states that they need to sell their DVC contract(s) due to financial issues and they are encouraged to consider renting their points out for a few years rather than selling their contracts. Imagine someone follows that advice but then their financial problems get even worse and they are about to lose their house or they are getting harassing phone calls from debt collectors due to unpaid medical bills.

I think this is so unfortunate for the renters who have had their vacation plans torn apart by this. But I don't see how we can jump to any conclusions about the DVC owner without knowing the facts.

It's a reservation for October, which was made "10 months in advance" according to the posts here. That would be December, when dues statements for this year came out. There's really no excuse. They rented out the points so they could pay the dues; if they used the money for anything else, then it's just outright stealing.

 

[Minniesgal]

Heard back from my Aunt who talked to David's. They said there were no rooms available and they were not willing to pay the extra to make up the difference. BOO! Shame on David's. I'm extremely disappointed and will not recommend them again.

what has happened is awful but you really can't expect David's to compensate above what is his contractual commitment in this situation. Getting a full refund is his commitment to the renter.

 

[Minniesgal]

It's hard for me to believe someone would be so mean and vicious as to ruin a vacation that's been planned 10+ months in advance.

I hope it's truly a mistake on the owners part. I had mentioned in another post... I'm constantly scared I might make that mistake of canceling a rental ressie when mucking around my dvc site. I can't imagine someone being so evil as to consciously ruin ppls vacations....

I know what you mean i cancelled a Jambo reservation for myself today and thought for a horrible second i had cancelled my renter's one by mistake (i hadn't but my heart sunk)

Also the website is major dodgy at the moment i have a reservation (for me) go missing. It is made but won't show on my confirmed reservations. Might be a technical issue caused the problem.

 

[Dean]

I still think David's can get their money without suing since they are a business they can just send it to a collections agency. No guarantees of course but that does often work.

The chances of David's seeing any money going through collections is almost zero and if they did, it'd likely be pennies on the dollar at most. The chances of getting anything if they sued is likely not any higher. I know people are upset but David's fulfilled their obligation under the terms the renter signed and should have known. It's simply part of the risk one takes trying to save the money. The risks with David's is less because of the refund guarantee but even for Disney direct there's always a chance of this type of thing happening.

 

[crisi]

Wow again! Now I'm mad for the both of us. And yes that was the same exact response. Almost feels like a form letter now.

I still think David's can get their money without suing since they are a business they can just send it to a collections agency. No guarantees of course but that does often work.

As for the member who assumably didn't pay their dues, yes I'm calling them irresponsible. When they realized the reservations were going to be cancelled it was their responsibility to call David's and let them know of the situation. Perhaps David's could have found another member with points and could have coordinated a cancellation / new booking, or some other option.

That cancellation and rebooking would be against policy. The MEMBER owns the points, if they cancel their reservation, it opens up to any other MEMBER, including those who paid their dues that have been on the wait list for months. It would be unfair to all other members.

 

[kamik86]

I don't understand why everyone keeps asking what the point of a broker like David's is for the renter.

If you book through a member directly you would be out the full cost of your reservation in this case as I assume the member wouldn't be able to pay you back your money as they would have already used it.

With David's at least you have the money back to put towards finding something else. Not ideal by any means... but at least your not paying for the "something else" on top of already having paid for the DVC room you won't get.

 

[kamik86]

That cancellation and rebooking would be against policy. The MEMBER owns the points, if they cancel their reservation, it opens up to any other MEMBER, including those who paid their dues that have been on the wait list for months. It would be unfair to all other members.

Honestly this would still happen. The waitlist only runs once per day (common complaint) so lets say you were a DVC member (not sure if you are or not) If I cancelled a reservation today at noon and you were on the waiting list for that room you wouldn't get it right away. Not until the waitlist ran (sometime during the night I believe) So if at 3 PM another member called and tried to book that same room they could get it, even though you and possibly several others were in a waitlist.

 

[crisi]

It's a reservation for October, which was made "10 months in advance" according to the posts here. That would be December, when dues statements for this year came out. There's really no excuse. They rented out the points so they could pay the dues; if they used the money for anything else, then it's just outright stealing.

If the story is believable (and it isn't completely), they tried to pay SOME of their dues on SOME of their contracts - the ones where they were renting points. Disney applied dues - probably to the primary contract first. Which may be Disney policy or a system restriction. They could have had good intentions and got caught in Disney systems/policy hell.

 

[crisi]

Honestly this would still happen. The waitlist only runs once per day (common complaint) so lets say you were a DVC member (not sure if you are or not) If I cancelled a reservation today at noon and you were on the waiting list for that room you wouldn't get it right away. Not until the waitlist ran (sometime during the night I believe) So if at 3 PM another member called and tried to book that same room they could get it, even though you and possibly several others were in a waitlist.

Yep, but if they cancel and rebook with the same guest, the folks on the phone or website trying to grab that cancellation might. They don't do this when its your own points for a single owner and you just want to try and switch which points you are using (across resorts). They sure aren't going to start letting you and I horsetrade our reservations and move points around because I own BWV and have a standard view room over F&W, and I'll cancel it and then we will rebook it using your points from another resort. That opens up an incredibly bad precedent.

They may need to allow you to rent, but Disney doesn't need to do ANYTHING to make it easier or fix issues when it happens. And it isn't in their interest to do so.

 

[suebeelin]

The chances of David's seeing any money going through collections is almost zero and if they did, it'd likely be pennies on the dollar at most. The chances of getting anything if they sued is likely not any higher. I know people are upset but David's fulfilled their obligation under the terms the renter signed and should have known. It's simply part of the risk one takes trying to save the money. The risks with David's is less because of the refund guarantee but even for Disney direct there's always a chance of this type of thing happening.

I agree. Most rentals go without a hitch. Remember, owners are also liable for their renters for any damage (I'm so scared about my first renting situation, although it's likely to be fine. We shall see in October). There's risks on both sides, unfortunately-- you take a chance, albeit a small chance, to save money over cash prices, in hopes the rentee is responsible. Similarly, the rentee takes a chance to "save" money on dues and recoup on the principal (when not needing the points) that the renter is responsive as well (does not damage the property).

Again, so sorry ;(

 

[crisi]

I agree. Most rentals go without a hitch. Remember, owners are also liable for their renters for any damage (I'm so scared about my first renting situation, although it's likely to be fine. We shall see in October). There's risks on both sides, unfortunately-- you take a chance, albeit a small chance, to save money over cash prices, in hopes the rentee is responsible. Similarly, the rentee takes a chance to "save" money on dues and recoup on the principal (when not needing the points) that the renter is responsive as well (does not damage the property).

Again, so sorry ;(

Sue, I rented mine out (through David) last fall (and did a rental through him for HHI for the Summer). It did go without a hitch. But being someone who spends a lot of time professionally doing risk analysis, I did wonder if the HHI room would be there when we showed up or if I'd find a $3,000 credit card bill on my room and a charge for someone scratching up the tub with a keg.

 

[cydswipe]

Wow again! Now I'm mad for the both of us. And yes that was the same exact response. Almost feels like a form letter now.

I still think David's can get their money without suing since they are a business they can just send it to a collections agency. No guarantees of course but that does often work.

As for the member who assumably didn't pay their dues, yes I'm calling them irresponsible. When they realized the reservations were going to be cancelled it was their responsibility to call David's and let them know of the situation. Perhaps David's could have found another member with points and could have coordinated a cancellation / new booking, or some other option.

I just wrote a review on David's Vacation Rentals page... not exactly basing them (I've learned a ton the last 36 hours)... but as a warning to other people.