Abortion thread

[chobie]

Well, I have stayed off of this thread b/c I figured it would get heated pretty quickly. But after reading all of the replies and seeing how civil it has remained I now feel like jumping in. But don't worry, I am all about keeping it civil as well.

Anyway, at one time I would have said I am 100% pro-life, but now I think I am more like 90% pro-life and 10% pro-choice. I think there are certain circumstances when an abortion is okay. Not many IMO, but some. I agree with PAW that a lot of times abortion is used as a form of birth control. I do not agree with abortion for this purpose. However, Totalia, I think if I had been in your friend's shoes I would have done the same thing. Not saying that is an easy choice for anyone to make, but if you know that there is absolutely no way that you or the baby would live, then what is the point of trying to keep the baby? At one time (actually not very long ago) I would have said that if I was given the choice between my life or the baby's life...only one of us could survive...that I would choose the baby. Now I don't think I would. I can't justify leaving my Dh or my soon-to-be daughter behind. As far as rape is concerned, I know what I think I would do, but I would have to actually be in the situation to say for sure. I think I would give birth to the baby and then give it up for adoption. But who can say for sure? I discussed these scenarios with my Dh this morning, since he is also mostly pro-life. I wanted to know what he thought. I in no way influenced him but he is for abortion if it came to my life or the baby's. He also would want me to get an abortion if I was raped and conceived as a result. He thinks it would be too painful to see me preg. by my rapist. However, he said that would be my decision to make. So, all I can say is I hope I am never in that situation. I feel it would be a lose-lose situation for all involved. If I carried the baby and then gave it up for adoption I feel that would strain the relationship between Dh and me. If I abort it, I might end up feeling extremely guilty. My belief is that it is a baby from the time of conception. I know that that is more of a religious belief and I am not trying to make anyone feel the way I do about it, but that is one reason abortion is so hard for me to understand. I will say that even when I was 100% pro-life, I would have NEVER been one of the sign-welding protesters outside of abortion clinics. I never understood the point in that personally. It isn't like it would change things anyway. I also am for educating people more about abstinence and birth control. My mother was the type who was against teens having birth control so I was smart enough to go get put on it myself (secretly) when Dh and I first started dating when I was 17. It is a good thing I did, b/c about a month later, the condom broke. If not for those bc pills I might now have a 6 year old. And I doubt my relationship with Dh would have survived a teenage preg. Neither of us were ready to be parents. So, yes, I am pro-life (except for medical life-death situations) but I also support educating the youth about birth control. I would rather my child be on birth control than get preg. and go out and get an abortion. So, there are some pro-lifers out there that do believe in birth control education. I have felt very enlightened reading this thread, b/c I never even thought about a situation like the one Totalia's friend went through. That really made me think. I still feel strongly about my views but can see the necessity of some abortions for reasons like this.

I think this is the most refreshingly honest post I have read. It's one thing to avow that "I would never have an abortion no matter what", but unless you have actually been told that you will die unless you abort I don't think it's fair to say that. One has no idea how one will react in a truamatic situation.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Tell me what yall think about this: Do you think we will get medically advanced enough to do fetus transplants? Think about it. We wouldn't have to kill the fetus just put it inside someone who wants it....just a thought

Very interesting question.

I wonder what the doc's were thinking when they thought about the first organ transplant--how many might have thought--"what are you thinking!!!".

I guess they'd have to see if it is possible in a lab environment with animals. I'm sure someone somewhere is thinking of it.

 

[DemonLlama]

I guess my point is why is it okay to interfere with "God's Will" in some circumstances and not others?

For me, when it is about preserving human life rather than ending it. Medical advances have also allowed us to live longer, which means certian diseases are now much more common. This has opened the discussion on euthanasia, which carries the same ethical quandaries.

 

[phillybeth]

Very interesting question.

I wonder what the doc's were thinking when they thought about the first organ transplant--how many might have thought--"what are you thinking!!!".

I guess they'd have to see if it is possible in a lab environment with animals. I'm sure someone somewhere is thinking of it.

There have been attempts made in research animals but none successful that I know of. There is such an intimate relationship (for lack of a better term) between the placenta and the uterus, and we have not figured out how to transfer an implanted embryo to another uterus. I don't know if we ever will. Did you ever try repotting two plants that had grown together, trying to separate the roots? It would be like that except on a microscopic, cellular level.

 

[swilphil]

I haven't met a priest that counseled against BC for a loooooooooong time. When I was getting married 25 years ago they were telling us to use our own judgement. I'm sure there are some conservative priests that would disagree, and I know the Pope would for sure, but I think that's the nature of the American Catholic Church.

That's good to hear, Aunt Polly. I also appreciate Lisa Loves Pooh's explanation of why the Catholic Church encourages the Natural Family Planning.

Since there are so many Catholics who don't follow the "rules" about birth control, is there a chance that Rome would change its official stance? I've heard grumblings that the Church may allow priests to marry in the future, could they change their minds on birth control?

 

[MrsKreamer]

That's good to hear, Aunt Polly. I also appreciate Lisa Loves Pooh's explanation of why the Catholic Church encourages the Natural Family Planning.

Since there are so many Catholics who don't follow the "rules" about birth control, is there a chance that Rome would change its official stance? I've heard grumblings that the Church may allow priests to marry in the future, could they change their minds on birth control?

That is hard to say. The Churches stance on BC has a different origin than the priets being allowed to be married. Priest were told they couldn't marry anymore b/c of property rights. The church property used to have a farm on it and other such things. The church property with being passed down to their children and the Church was losing valuable land. This seems kind of silly now.

The Church is against BC b/c the whole purpose of sex is not for pleasure(a nice side effect) but for procreation. So (from their POV) to stop that procreation by using methods other than obstaining is a"slap in the face."

At least that was how it was explained to me in Catholic high school.

 

[MrsKreamer]

There have been attempts made in research animals but none successful that I know of. There is such an intimate relationship (for lack of a better term) between the placenta and the uterus, and we have not figured out how to transfer an implanted embryo to another uterus. I don't know if we ever will. Did you ever try repotting two plants that had grown together, trying to separate the roots? It would be like that except on a microscopic, cellular level.

Well they used to not be able to replaced fingers because the nerves were too small to repair. Now they can. They used to not be able to do IVF, but now it is possible and has higher success than it used to. I don't know, but it nice to think that there may be an alternative one day.

 

[chobie]

That's good to hear, Aunt Polly. I also appreciate Lisa Loves Pooh's explanation of why the Catholic Church encourages the Natural Family Planning.

Since there are so many Catholics who don't follow the "rules" about birth control, is there a chance that Rome would change its official stance? I've heard grumblings that the Church may allow priests to marry in the future, could they change their minds on birth control?

I am not currently a practicing Catholic, but one of the things I always admired about Catholics is the ability of many of them to ignore some rules. Rather then just leaving the Church all together, most of them stayed for community and spiritual aspects without having to feel like they needed to all or nothing members. Another thing I like is that while the Church is anti-achoice and anti-BC, they have also maintained a stance of being against cutting welfare benefits for the children they so wanted to be born.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

There have been attempts made in research animals but none successful that I know of. There is such an intimate relationship (for lack of a better term) between the placenta and the uterus, and we have not figured out how to transfer an implanted embryo to another uterus. I don't know if we ever will. Did you ever try repotting two plants that had grown together, trying to separate the roots? It would be like that except on a microscopic, cellular level.

Oh gosh no--if they ever have laws for killing plants..I'd be serving a life sentence

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That's good to hear, Aunt Polly. I also appreciate Lisa Loves Pooh's explanation of why the Catholic Church encourages the Natural Family Planning.

Since there are so many Catholics who don't follow the "rules" about birth control, is there a chance that Rome would change its official stance? I've heard grumblings that the Church may allow priests to marry in the future, could they change their minds on birth control?

ETA preface--thanks for the kind words--the Vatican encourages NFP--but on the local level, it is a far cry from it.

The Catholic church has changed a lot over the years--beginning with the Vatican II changes (priest faces the congregation, masses in native language--et cetera).

I'm not sure they would change their stance on Birth Control. The key behind all of this is that they want a couple to be open to life--and allowing BC so that the act can happen and not being open to life contradicts all that. The information behind NFP is great--the unfortunate part is that there aren't a whole lot of instructors with just 2 kids teaching it...several have 4, 5, or 6 children. Hard to believe the method works when you see the instructors with their crew (they usually share their story during class--and no the children do not attend LOL). And no matter how much they say that the method worked b/c they wanted all of their kids and used NFP to achieve that--those who are stuck on only wanting 2 kids..can't move past that. My friend who is an instructor wants me to hand out literature or speak on it--but I'm not ready for that...plus we want 4 kids...again, not quite poster parent material when it comes to preventing pregnancy. The few times I have mentioned to friends--they bring up that so and so got pregnant while nursing or that they have 5 kids what do they know. And it is always accompanied by an eyeroll. Well of course you can get pregnant while nursing--b/c you can ovulate at anytime...as long as you chart your observations--you won't be caught off guard by a surprise ovulation that yielded a surprise pregnancy. Natural Family planning is about planning your family as you see fit naturally--without the aid of hormone or barrier.

I think the Catholic church is more preoccupied with premarital sex and cohabitating--that they do not emphasize family planning enough in the preparation classes. Pretty much--they just hand you a flier and then move on. Also--it is more for engaged couples and married couples--though single women could use the information for a variety of reasons. But alas--the congregation doesn't want to hear it for the pulpit--and it boils down to--abortion aside--that as far as women's health in general...how can the pope tell them what to do with their bodies when there isn't a baby in it and they'd like to keep it that way. So even if the information on NFP is good and valid, nobody wants to hear it from the pulpit, let alone a family who has more than 2 children.

(I am speaking from my own experience in my church---we had a women's retreat once and a priest visited for a Q & A and he got whammied on this topic--so my generalizations mentioned above were from that experience as well as personal discussions with people who share their 2 cents on how ludicrous NFP is).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I am not currently a practicing Catholic, but one of the things I always admired about Catholics is the ability of many of them to ignore some rules. Rather then just leaving the Church all together, most of them stayed for community and spiritual aspects without having to feel like they needed to all or nothing members. Another thing I like is that while the Church is anti-achoice and anti-BC, they have also maintained a stance of being against cutting welfare benefits for the children they so wanted to be born.

Our church also supports a home for unwed mom's to be and young mom's who had nowhere to go. The only stipulation is they have to go to school...be it study for the GED, go to community college or whatever. There is a crib at church that people can drop off new or used items to be used in these homes (I think there are 3).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I am not currently a practicing Catholic, but one of the things I always admired about Catholics is the ability of many of them to ignore some rules. Rather then just leaving the Church all together, most of them stayed for community and spiritual aspects without having to feel like they needed to all or nothing members. Another thing I like is that while the Church is anti-achoice and anti-BC, they have also maintained a stance of being against cutting welfare benefits for the children they so wanted to be born.

Forgot to add--

I had a priest told me once that in a perfect world, we agree with everything...but you don't have to be 100% in agreement with the Catholic Church to be Catholic. There is always going to be something you don't agree with....

HOWEVER...if you don't agree with some key elements of it--then it might be time to reevaluate your faith.

For example--they believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of christ during communion. Very key points of the church teaching. You go down the list from there.

 

[totalia]

Very well said. I want there to be a day when elective abortions are almost unheard of, not because they are illegal, but because they are not needed.

Just because I am pro-life does not mean I want RvW overturned. I think that would open a whole new can of worms.

If it were up to me to write a national abortion law it would be something like this. Note these are only my opinions, which come from my knowledge, life experience and emotions. I had a miscarriage, unmarried at age 18. Saw pieces of the "fetus" which was in all ways my child/baby to me at about 14 weeks gestation.
Have also had 2 children which includes a high risk pregnancy and an emergency c-section.


12 weeks gestation no restrictions, but 48 with hr waiting period after counseling.

13-24 weeks.... no elective abortions, abortion only when mothers health is at risk, or it is determined that the fetus will not survive.

24+ weeks... abortion only when fetus will not survive, or if the mothers life is at stake and there is no possible way to deliver the fetus.

I am completely against allowing a minor to have an abortion without parental consent, or obtaining a court order if the pregnancy occurred due to incest or abuse in the home (IE the male in the home but not the bio father).

Well put. I agree with you.

 

[totalia]

swilphil

I haven't seen one person who says they would like see no need for abortion saying they are against birth control. Are you painting a broad brush and assuming anyone pro-life is against birth control? As for someone who is not against birth control I can not speak for those who are.

There have also been several pro-choice DIS memebers who have expressed the same desire in previous threads. Just because someone is pro-choice does not mean they "like" abortions and want them performed.

Exactly.

 

[totalia]

There is a current push by some groups to teach abstinence ONLY in schools. The four school districts that I have worked with did, in fact, teach abstinence along with presenting information about birth control methods (this was in high schools). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the official stance from the Catholic Church one that discourages any form of birth control, aside from natural family planning? My Catholic friends, though devout on many levels, do use birth control.

People keep talking about abstinence but how many people do you actually know who would happily do that?

I don't know any.

Teaching is good only if people are willing to actually listen. I mean look at how much we talk about how bad drug abuse is and yet look at how many people are actually involved in it.

 

[auntpolly]

Since there are so many Catholics who don't follow the "rules" about birth control, is there a chance that Rome would change its official stance? I've heard grumblings that the Church may allow priests to marry in the future, could they change their minds on birth control?

I'm not holding my breath - I've been told by a Vatican insider (my! that sounds fascinating just saying it - it's really not!) that they Pope has surrounded himself with like minded men who will be most likely to take over when he's gone. He's a dear, good man, even if I don't agree with everything.

I've never met 2 priests that agree about everything in the church, so when people suggest that if I don't want to follow the church's teachings I should find a new church I respectfully ask that they mind their own business. The Catholic Church is the closest to my beliefs - I've looked into it - trust me!

 

[totalia]

Well, I have stayed off of this thread b/c I figured it would get heated pretty quickly. But after reading all of the replies and seeing how civil it has remained I now feel like jumping in. But don't worry, I am all about keeping it civil as well.

Anyway, at one time I would have said I am 100% pro-life, but now I think I am more like 90% pro-life and 10% pro-choice. I think there are certain circumstances when an abortion is okay. Not many IMO, but some. I agree with PAW that a lot of times abortion is used as a form of birth control. I do not agree with abortion for this purpose. However, Totalia, I think if I had been in your friend's shoes I would have done the same thing. Not saying that is an easy choice for anyone to make, but if you know that there is absolutely no way that you or the baby would live, then what is the point of trying to keep the baby? At one time (actually not very long ago) I would have said that if I was given the choice between my life or the baby's life...only one of us could survive...that I would choose the baby. Now I don't think I would. I can't justify leaving my Dh or my soon-to-be daughter behind. As far as rape is concerned, I know what I think I would do, but I would have to actually be in the situation to say for sure. I think I would give birth to the baby and then give it up for adoption. But who can say for sure? I discussed these scenarios with my Dh this morning, since he is also mostly pro-life. I wanted to know what he thought. I in no way influenced him but he is for abortion if it came to my life or the baby's. He also would want me to get an abortion if I was raped and conceived as a result. He thinks it would be too painful to see me preg. by my rapist. However, he said that would be my decision to make. So, all I can say is I hope I am never in that situation. I feel it would be a lose-lose situation for all involved. If I carried the baby and then gave it up for adoption I feel that would strain the relationship between Dh and me. If I abort it, I might end up feeling extremely guilty. My belief is that it is a baby from the time of conception. I know that that is more of a religious belief and I am not trying to make anyone feel the way I do about it, but that is one reason abortion is so hard for me to understand. I will say that even when I was 100% pro-life, I would have NEVER been one of the sign-welding protesters outside of abortion clinics. I never understood the point in that personally. It isn't like it would change things anyway. I also am for educating people more about abstinence and birth control. My mother was the type who was against teens having birth control so I was smart enough to go get put on it myself (secretly) when Dh and I first started dating when I was 17. It is a good thing I did, b/c about a month later, the condom broke. If not for those bc pills I might now have a 6 year old. And I doubt my relationship with Dh would have survived a teenage preg. Neither of us were ready to be parents. So, yes, I am pro-life (except for medical life-death situations) but I also support educating the youth about birth control. I would rather my child be on birth control than get preg. and go out and get an abortion. So, there are some pro-lifers out there that do believe in birth control education. I have felt very enlightened reading this thread, b/c I never even thought about a situation like the one Totalia's friend went through. That really made me think. I still feel strongly about my views but can see the necessity of some abortions for reasons like this.

Thank you. Its nice to see that someones eyes have been opened.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like aborton. In a perfect world, it wouldn't exist. I just understand this isn't a perfect world as much as I would like it to be.

I'm rather glad that my friend is still here. She's a nice girl.

 

[totalia]

I think that's a myth that most women who get abortions are using it as birth control. They are not. They are using it as a "fail safe" after their original BC methods has failed them. I personally know quite a few people who have had abortions and they have no regrets. They don't go around crying and carrying around ultrasound photos, and I wouldn't either if I had aborted. That would be stupid. And regarding "selfish reasons" to get an abortions...well many, many people have babies for selfish reasons too. All you have to do is read the "How old were you when you got pregnant?" thread to see that. ("I forgot the Pill"..."We just winged it" "I used no birth control!" - ALL SELFISH reasons to have a baby. Why can't people see that??)
But if you abort, oh you are deemed "selfish"!
How come if you keep a baby its "okay" to be selfish then? Because its not a mistake, but a "miracle from God"?? Puh-leeze.

*nods*

 

[totalia]

I'm more concerned with that "slippery slope". I hate to say it, but the masses are so easily manipulated, and who knows what people could be talked into with the right persuasion. If you had told me that OH and how many other states would have gone out in droves to vote to make sure gay people couldn't marry, I'd not have believed it.

You have to be ever viglilant in protecting your rights, is all I'm saying.

Very well put.

 

[totalia]

Actually your 7 month old can survive without YOU. Anyone can take care of the baby. Now a 12 week embryo can only survive in the uterus it was implanted in. That is the difference.

*nods* Exactly.