A threat from Bin Laden (possible debate)

[Mom2be]

What freedom have any of you had personally taken away? I still live my life the same way I did last year and the year before and the year before. I see no changes. I do see a lot of what ifs and IF this happens and IF that happens, and what good is the 4th ammendment, and we will have all of our freedoms taken away, and I don't want the government conrolling my life......please, the government has had a say in your life for years...but I have yet to hear of one person on here who has not been able to do or say exactly what they want.

Nancy I work at a bank and I get to see first hand how the Patriot Act effects people's ability to borrower money. Do you know how many people I've had to turn down for a loan in the state of Hawaii? Want to know why? Because typically each home in Hawaii has 2 address - one for the mail and one for the location. Because the two are different I am unable to check to make sure that the client actually lives where they say they do because the title will say Main St. but their driver's license, utility bills, and such will say Elm St. because that is the mailing address. If they are unable to show me at least 2 forms of identification that show the actual property location I can't lend them money. And don't say - well that rarely happens because it happens a WHOLE lot more then you think. And why can't I lend them money - because I can reconcile the conditions in the patriot act and therefore the bank can't legally lend them the money. These are honest to good people and they can't get a loan because of stipulations in the patriot act - sounds fair doesn't it? How would you feel if you were applying for student loans for your kids and was told you were SOL because of paperwork?

~Amanda

 

[Mom2be]

#1 - I think Bin Lunacy is bluffing with his "Let's call a truce" -plea. I think he and all his knuckle-heads know their losing the war and they want out. Odd how this happened right after the missle strike in Pakistan huh?

#2 - Wire taps are gonna continue like it or not.

No problem with #2 - but I want them done LEGALLY.

Why is that a hard concept for some to grasp?
~Amanda

 

[Miss Jasmine]

All is right in the world again - Miss Jasmine and I are agreeing! WHEW! I was starting to get worried!

Back on track!

 

[sodaseller]

It's comments like this one that is a perfect example why the warrantless searches, that weren't invented by the current administration nor were they the first to use them, aren't politically smart to use. Critics are free to make any manner of charge against the users of such searches with little or no proof. As a bonus to the critics, the Administration is effectivley prohibited from defending against the charges least they further compromise their intelligence gathering efforts. It's this concpet that allows certain ex-VPs to make such claims as "the Executive Branch has been secretly spying on large numbers of Americans for the last four years..." and say other stuff that lets people's imaginations run wild. People can assign all of the ill intent they wish without fear of facts being presented to dispute the claims or examples being cited where warrantless searches were the right option to use. The people that know the specifics can't talk about it.

Actually, that comments is perfectly consistent with AG Gonzalez' admission that the Congress would not amend FISA to meet the needs of the program. Moreover, you are using a false dilemma logical fallacy in stating that the Administration either has to divulge secrets publicly or leave the criticism unanswered. FISA apps are classified, and various congressional leaders have full clearance. This Administration has chosen not to share the relevant details with any of them.

As for the gratuitous swipe at Gore, he made clear that he was referring to oversight from other branches of government, not full public disclosure

An executive who arrogates to himself the power to ignore the legitimate legislative directives of the Congress or to act free of the check of the judiciary becomes the central threat that the Founders sought to nullify in the Constitution - an all-powerful executive too reminiscent of the King from whom they had broken free. In the words of James Madison, "the accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."

And make no mistake, the rule of law makes us stronger by ensuring that decisions will be tested, studied, reviewed, and examined through the normal processes of government that are designed to improve policy, and avoid error. And the knowledge that they will be reviewed prevents over-reaching and checks the accretion to power

For more than two centuries, America's freedoms have been preserved in large part by our founders' wise decision to separate the aggregate power of our government into three co-equal branches, each of which, as you know, serves to check and balance the power of the other two.

On more than a few occasions, in our history, the dynamic interaction among all three branches has resulted in collisions and temporary impasses that create what are invariably labeled "constitutional crises." These crises have often been dangerous and uncertain times for our Republic. But in each such case so far, we have found a resolution of the crisis by renewing our common agreement to live together under the rule of law.

 

[Mom2be]

Last time I checked, Nixon didn't brief Congressional leaders of both parties of his actions beforehand, nor did he seek the opinion of the DoJ, nor is it related in almost any manner.

Well I feel that way about the "Bush is the first President....." nonsense either. Not really related to the matter that BUSH did it.

~Amanda

 

[Miss Jasmine]

No problem with #2 - but I want them done LEGALLY.

Why is that a hard concept for some to grasp?
~Amanda

Exactly, if there is a real threat or something to be gained from the wire tap, then make the case. Don't just start tapping. The way they are doing it, it is a big fishing expidition. And certain groups of people are being targeted. It's not right. Just because I am middle-eastern, should my phone be tapped?

 

[CathrynRose]

Just because I am middle-eastern, should my phone be tapped?

If youre calling internationally and making plans to attack anywhere, I dont see why not.

It has nothing to do with your decent - what so ever, at all.

 

[CathrynRose]

Don't just start tapping. The way they are doing it, it is a big fishing expidition. And certain groups of people are being targeted.

Fishing expedition?!? How do you know *how* theyre tapping? Are you working in the Gov't? Do you have some sort of information regarding how exactly they are doing this? Have you no trust in your gov't -knowing- whom and why theyre doing what they do?

Does it not bother you that when this whole thing was leaked, large purchases of re-charge cell phones, began??

Yeah, youre probably right - theyre randomly choosing people to tap. Just for fun. Maybe they find out juicy gossip and easy 20 minute recipes while theyre at it.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Fishing expedition?!? How do you know *how* theyre tapping? Are you working in the Gov't? Do you have some sort of information regarding how exactly they are doing this? Have you no trust in your gov't -knowing- whom and why theyre doing what they do?

Does it not bother you that when this whole thing was leaked, large purchases of re-charge cell phones, began??

Yeah, youre probably right - theyre randomly choosing people to tap. Just for fun. Maybe they find out juicy gossip and easy 20 minute recipes while theyre at it.

And how do you know how the government is deciding to wire tap, why it is deciding to wire tap that phone, and what information is being gathered? Do YOU work for the government?

 

[Miss Jasmine]

If youre calling internationally and making plans to attack anywhere, I dont see why not.

It has nothing to do with your decent - what so ever, at all.

If the government suspects that is what I am doing, it can go through the proper channesl and obtain a LEGAL wire tap. Why is that not good enough?

 

[Hercules10]

No problem with #2 - but I want them done LEGALLY.

Why is that a hard concept for some to grasp?
~Amanda

Unfortunately by the time it's done legally the damage is done.

Besides if the Gov'mnt wants to listen in on me breathing heavy to my hot neighbor then let 'em.

 

[wvrevy]

If the government suspects that is what I am doing, it can go through the proper channesl and obtain a LEGAL wire tap. Why is that not good enough?

Exactly ! If they have probable cause (and no, "she has darker skin" doesn't qualify as probable cause), then they'll have their warrant in practically no time, without compromising any secrets, since the court itself is set up for just that purpose.

It is ridiculous and sad how many people are willing to give up their rights out of fear, just because they "don't have anything to hide".

 

[CathrynRose]

Amanda said::::
No problem with #2 - but I want them done LEGALLY.

Why is that a hard concept for some to grasp?
~Amanda

Then Hercules said::::
Unfortunately by the time it's done legally the damage is done.



Then I say::::
Hercules said it best ... why is THAT so hard to grasp?

 

[Mom2be]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2be
No problem with #2 - but I want them done LEGALLY.

Why is that a hard concept for some to grasp?
~Amanda

Unfortunately by the time it's done legally the damage is done.

\QUOTE]

Hercules said it best ... why is THAT so hard to grasp?

Um, yeah if that was actually true.
http://www.thinkprogress.org/

Since President Bush’s warrantless domestic spying program was made public, White House officials have justified their violation of federal FISA law by arguing that the program had made our country safer. A report in this morning’s New York Times may help put this to rest. Below, we lay out the spin and provide the facts:

SPIN - NSA SPYING STOPPED POSSIBLE TERRORIST ATTACKS IN THE UNITED STATES: “The activities I have authorized make it more likely that killers like these 9/11 hijackers will be identified and located in time. And the activities conducted under this authorization have helped detect and prevent possible terrorist attacks in the United States and abroad.” [President Bush, 12/17/05]

FACT – PROGRAM HAS UNCOVERED “NO IMMINENT PLOTS…INSIDE THE UNITED STATES”: “The law enforcement and counterterrorism officials said the program had uncovered no active Qaeda networks inside the United States planning attacks. ‘There were no imminent plots - not inside the United States,’ the former F.B.I. official said.” [New York Times, 1/17/06]

SPIN – PROGRAM ONLY SPIES ON THOSE WITH CLEAR LINKS TO AL QAEDA: “Another very important point to remember is that we have to have a reasonable basis to conclude that one party to the communication is a member of al Qaeda, affiliated with al Qaeda, or a member of an organization affiliated with al Qaeda, or working in support of al Qaeda.” [Attorney General Gonzales, 12/19/05]

FACT – INFORMATION GIVEN TO FBI OFTEN “NEVER LED TO ANYTHING”: “F.B.I. field agents, who were not told of the domestic surveillance programs, complained that they often were given no information about why names or numbers had come under suspicion. A former senior prosecutor who was familiar with the eavesdropping programs said intelligence officials turning over the tips ‘would always say that we had information whose source we can’t share, but it indicates that this person has been communicating with a suspected Qaeda operative.’ He said, ‘I would always wonder, what does “suspected” mean?’ ‘The information was so thin,’ he said, ‘and the connections were so remote, that they never led to anything, and I never heard any follow-up.’” [New York Times, 1/17/06]

SPIN - PROGRAM IS TARGETED AND “VERY LIMITED IN NATURE”: “It is very limited in nature.” [Scott McClellan, 1/3/06]

FACT –PROGRAM HAD FBI CHASING “THOUSANDS OF TIPS A MONTH”: “In the anxious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the National Security Agency began sending a steady stream of telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and names to the F.B.I. in search of terrorists. The stream soon became a flood, requiring hundreds of agents to check out thousands of tips a month. […] ‘We’d chase a number, find it’s a schoolteacher with no indication they’ve ever been involved in international terrorism - case closed,’ said one former F.B.I. official, who was aware of the program and the data it generated for the bureau. ‘After you get a thousand numbers and not one is turning up anything, you get some frustration.’” [New York Times, 1/17/06]

SPIN – PROGRAM STOPPED FERTILIZER BOMB PLOT: “What appeared to be another Qaeda plot, involving fertilizer bomb attacks on British pubs and train stations, was exposed last year in part through the program, the officials said.” [New York Times, 12/16/05]

FACT – FBI OFFICIALS QUESTION THIS ASSERTION: “But, along with several British counterterrorism officials, some of the officials questioned assertions by the Bush administration that the program was the key to uncovering a plot to detonate fertilizer bombs in London in 2004.” [New York Times, 1/17/06]

SPIN – PROGRAM STOPPED BROOKLYN BRIDGE PLOT: “Several officials said the eavesdropping program had helped uncover a plot by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker and naturalized citizen who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting Al Qaeda by planning to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches.” [New York Times, 12/16/05]

FACT – INVESTIGATORS LEARNED OF PLOT “THROUGH…OTHER MEANS”: “The F.B.I. and other law enforcement officials also expressed doubts about the importance of the program’s role in another case named by administration officials as a success in the fight against terrorism, an aborted scheme to topple the Brooklyn Bridge with a blow torch. Some officials said that in both cases, they had already learned of the plans through interrogation of prisoners or other means.” [New York Times, 1/17/06]

As of yet no "damage" has been avoided due to the wiretaps in question. Not to mention the government can tap the phones for up to 72 hours before they even have to apply for a warrant. So don't give me the song and dance about "there isn't enough time" there is more then enough time allowed by the patriot act for the government to do their job legally.

Do you grasp that yet?

~Amanda

 

[CathrynRose]

Dont bother sending me links to Fluff websites.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Amanda said::::
No problem with #2 - but I want them done LEGALLY.

Why is that a hard concept for some to grasp?
~Amanda

Then Hercules said::::
Unfortunately by the time it's done legally the damage is done.



Then I say::::
Hercules said it best ... why is THAT so hard to grasp?

As Mom2Be said, according to the Patriot Act, the government CAN tap a phone for 72 hours PRIOR to applying for a warrant.

Edited because I am REALLY trying not to be snarky.

 

[Mom2be]

Dont bother sending me links to Fluff websites.

I guess you missed the part where the FACTS WERE SOURCED - but then again it is always easier to dismiss the source when you can't dismiss the content.

Why not check out the NYT article for yourself or is that also a "fluff" website.

To borrow a phrase from a friend - you can't make this stuff up.

~Amanda

 

[Laura]

Amanda said::::
No problem with #2 - but I want them done LEGALLY.

Why is that a hard concept for some to grasp?
~Amanda

Then Hercules said::::
Unfortunately by the time it's done legally the damage is done.



Then I say::::
Hercules said it best ... why is THAT so hard to grasp?

According to law, they can tap, and THEN obtain a subpoena several days later if time is of the essence.

References were cited in that quote. It wasn't fluff.

 

[Mom2be]

Do you really believe it only takes a couple of days to plan an attack? Okey dokey then. Plus as Mom2Be said, according to the Patriot Act, the government CAN tap a phone for 72 hours PRIOR to applying for a warrant.

But then it's to late! THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING!

~Amanda

 

[Laura]

But then it's to late! THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING!

~Amanda

<---terrorism-proof umbrella