A question for Christians

[bluefairy13]

I didn't make it clear. He did! While the mystery of the trinity is profound, He made the Gospel so easy to understand that little children can accept it.

I can't disagree more. While there is much that a child can understand (and these things are the important things), there is soooooo much that is a mystery that we will never understand while we are living.

I have to go back to work now, but I am not saying I am right and you are wrong about everything, really. I think you are right about many things.

The only thing I really believe you are wrong about is that you think you have Jesus all figured out, and I know that you don't.

 

[daisax]

He made the Gospel so easy to understand that little children can accept it.

I can accept gravity, but I don't claim to understand it.

And I think part of the struggle we are having with each other is a philosophical expectation -- one group believes that God made it easy and another group that God made it infinitely complicated. You who see it as easy think we're being obstinate, and we who think it's infinitely complicated think you're being simplistic.

 

[Buckalew11]

OK, what is meant by "God's son". Aren't God and Jesus the same through the trinity? I believe that what you have written is true too, but I believe there is much much more to it that I don't and can't understand.

You guys say these mysteries like they make complete sense, and they don't. Of course, they do, but not in a way we can understand.

I really think some of you are trying to limit God's greatness if you think it is all completely clear.

Jesus, I also believe Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. However, God sent His Son for a reason and the reason is clear. He died for a purpose and that was for all mankind. In Christianity, I believe that one cannot come to God except through Jesus (why we are called Christians). Once we become Christians we have the Holy Spirit living in us. One would not experience the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity w/o Jesus's death on the cross. However, this IS very complicated--three are one, etc. is all complicated. I do not understand it fully and do not expect to.

Everything is not crystal clear but I believe salvation is. I think we try (or not even try) to make that part complicated while it is so simple that a child can understand the basics of it.

I can accept gravity, but I don't claim to understand it.

And I think part of the struggle we are having with each other is a philosophical expectation -- one group believes that God made it easy and another group that God made it infinitely complicated. You who see it as easy think we're being obstinate, and we who think it's infinitely complicated think you're being simplistic.

Actually, I think it is both. Simple and complex.

 

[daisax]

Jesus, I also believe Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. However, God sent His Son for a reason and the reason is clear. He died for a purpose and that was for all mankind.

Died for all mankind, not "died solely for those who 'got it'."

 

[Buckalew11]

John 3:16, "For God so Loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life."

For all...who believeth in Him. But true, Christ died for every single person. But I would not feel safe saying He died for all so all get to have everlasting life. Maybe we'll find out that is true, but if it isn't, I do not want to answer for misleading someone when the Bible seems so clear on the topic. I feel I'd be w/o excuse.

 

[jimmiej]

I guess many of you take this to mean that unless you specifically focus on the Jesus part of the Trinity you don't go to Heaven. I would say that as part of the Trinity there could be many who know God but don't "get" the Jesus part and He wouldn't hold a grudge about it. Jesus brought people to God in His life and in His death, but that doesn't mean that he/God/Trinity are restricted to that.

Hebrews 9

22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

We cannot get to the Father w/o the shed blood of Jesus. We cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit w/o salvation.

Again, I read that as saying "if you do believe this, you're saved" but not "if you don't, you're damned."

John 3 (Message)

16-18"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.

 

[cteddiesgirl]

Jesus, I also believe Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. However, God sent His Son for a reason and the reason is clear. He died for a purpose and that was for all mankind. In Christianity, I believe that one cannot come to God except through Jesus (why we are called Christians). Once we become Christians we have the Holy Spirit living in us. One would not experience the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity w/o Jesus's death on the cross. However, this IS very complicated--three are one, etc. is all complicated. I do not understand it fully and do not expect to.

Everything is not crystal clear but I believe salvation is. I think we try (or not even try) to make that part complicated while it is so simple that a child can understand the basics of it.




Actually, I think it is both. Simple and complex.

I'm sorry. But I'm not a simplistic child who has absolutely no knowledge of history and has no questions.

I try not to question God. But I do question the bible and the beliefs of people because of my knowledge. Fact is, that God gave me the brains to have this knowledge to question things.
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?...ay_order=3&sub_display_order=16&mini_id=53426
"The Gospels are first because they tell the story of Jesus, but they were written between 70 and 90, as much as 60 years after his death. The Acts of the Apostles is also from this period. The Epistles of Paul, however, are earlier; they date from the decade between 50 and 60 because they were written at the very time Paul was involved in missionary work. The remaining books, which can be dated between 90 and 150, reflect church conditions of the postapostolic period. Second, the documents do not evidence much interest in history as a chronological process, partly because their authors believed in the impending end of history. Third, the New Testament is not one book but an ecclesiastical collection, preserved for the specific purposes of worship, preaching, teaching, and polemics. Fourth, all the documents were written by advocates of the Christian faith for purposes of proclamation and instruction; hence, although they contain historical references, they are not pieces of historical reporting."

Paul, on whom so much of the bible depends, started his missionary work about 40 years after the death of Christ. He never met Jesus, never even heard him speak.
Pretty much the entire New Testament was written second hand. Not by Jesus, Himself.
Even some of the stories about the same things differ in some areas. How can anyone be absolutely sure that what the bible says that Jesus said is absolutely correct?

As stated previously, people read different things into words and sayings. People also hear and remember things differently.
Have you never had to do the experiment where a group of people sit in a circle? One person whispers a short story to the person next to them. That person passes it on to the next. By the time it gets through everyone, the story has almost completely changed.

This is how come I cannot trust what the bible says as fact.

 

[jimmiej]

Paul, on whom so much of the bible depends, started his missionary work about 40 years after the death of Christ. He never met Jesus, never even heard him speak. Pretty much the entire New Testament was written second hand. Not by Jesus, Himself.
Even some of the stories about the same things differ in some areas. How can anyone be absolutely sure that what the bible says that Jesus said is absolutely correct?

Bolded mine.

That's not true. Read 2 Corinthians 12.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Also, I think that anyone who is reborn in Christ, has accepted Jesus Christ in their heart, and is a true Christian, HAS indeed met Jesus.....

 

[daisax]

Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.

I assume you realize that whatever you're quoting here isn't the Bible but someone's interpretation of it?

I think a lot of people who claim the ultimate authority of the Bible for their beliefs actually get a lot of their beliefs from their teachers' interpretation of it. And that's fine -- the Catholic Church certainly holds that tradition goes hand in hand with the Bible and that the Bible is NOT the sole authority.

 

[Buckalew11]

I'm sorry. But I'm not a simplistic child who has absolutely no knowledge of history and has no questions.

I try not to question God. But I do question the bible and the beliefs of people because of my knowledge. Fact is, that God gave me the brains to have this knowledge to question things.
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?...ay_order=3&sub_display_order=16&mini_id=53426
"The Gospels are first because they tell the story of Jesus, but they were written between 70 and 90, as much as 60 years after his death. The Acts of the Apostles is also from this period. The Epistles of Paul, however, are earlier; they date from the decade between 50 and 60 because they were written at the very time Paul was involved in missionary work. The remaining books, which can be dated between 90 and 150, reflect church conditions of the postapostolic period. Second, the documents do not evidence much interest in history as a chronological process, partly because their authors believed in the impending end of history. Third, the New Testament is not one book but an ecclesiastical collection, preserved for the specific purposes of worship, preaching, teaching, and polemics. Fourth, all the documents were written by advocates of the Christian faith for purposes of proclamation and instruction; hence, although they contain historical references, they are not pieces of historical reporting."

Paul, on whom so much of the bible depends, started his missionary work about 40 years after the death of Christ. He never met Jesus, never even heard him speak.
Pretty much the entire New Testament was written second hand. Not by Jesus, Himself.
Even some of the stories about the same things differ in some areas. How can anyone be absolutely sure that what the bible says that Jesus said is absolutely correct?

As stated previously, people read different things into words and sayings. People also hear and remember things differently.
Have you never had to do the experiment where a group of people sit in a circle? One person whispers a short story to the person next to them. That person passes it on to the next. By the time it gets through everyone, the story has almost completely changed.

This is how come I cannot trust what the bible says as fact.

Why are you sorry? I'm not a simplistic child who has no knowledge or history and has no questions either. I'm not sorry for that.

I have a million questions and as I study the Bible I find more and more. It causes a hunger that does not get satisfied. I question God and I ask for enlightenment too. There are topics so complicated that I'll never understand thm unless upon death you then understand things better. I've questioned the "complex" parts and I have questioned the "simple" parts. I do not claim to know what God is thinking but if He says something in the Bible over and over again then I can get that rather well. I can learn about the nature of God through the Bible which is a book I trust.

I think all of this comes down to how one views the Bible. We see it very differently. You say I am limiting God for thinking He laid out a plan of salvation for all, but I say you are limiting God because you do not think God could preserve His Word well enough through the years that we can know the basics of what He wants us to know. I do not think the ones who wrote the Bible were like me writing down my opinion on things. No, I think they were inspired by God and God speaks to us through those words. Do I think it is translated perfectly? No, but I think one can go to the original and see how close it is.

I think it is great if one can be a Christian and not believe the Bible is His Word because I, myself, would probably not be a Christian if I didn't have the Bible. I'd be the type to need a burning bush or something...

I just think we'll have to agree to disagree mostly because of the way we view the Bible.

Peace.

 

[Wishing on a star]

This is how come I cannot trust what the bible says as fact.

Well, nobody ever said that everything in the Bible is FACT... It is full of judgement calls, parables, visions, promises, etc..... As well as all of the promises that Jesus Christ IS the 'truth'.

We are talking about spirituality here... To discard the Bible because it is not a simple encycopedia of verified 'fact' is, in my IMHO, a mistake. If one throws out the Scritptures, or part of the Scriptures, then they enevitably discount the whole message, and the promises of glory and salvation.

Faith is the belief and trust on things unseen...
Our salvation and our future, since it has not happened yet. could not be 'fact'.

And, indeed, facts are truly very very limited to our own human understanding... Man once thought that the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth... The gospel TRUTH is sooooo much more than we can truly understand.. ( lean not upon thine own understanding.... )

I am a Christian based on 'Faith' not 'Fact'... (with the faith of a mustard seed)

And, in all matters of spirituality and salvation, I do know that I find the 'truth'....

 

[Wishing on a star]

I think a lot of people who claim the ultimate authority of the Bible for their beliefs actually get a lot of their beliefs from their teachers' interpretation of it. And that's fine -- the Catholic Church certainly holds that tradition goes hand in hand with the Bible and that the Bible is NOT the sole authority.

I very strongly disagree... which is why I would never join Catholocism..

In vain they preach the words of men... (instead of the WORD of god)

 

[bluefairy13]

Jesus, I also believe Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. However, God sent His Son for a reason and the reason is clear. He died for a purpose and that was for all mankind. In Christianity, I believe that one cannot come to God except through Jesus (why we are called Christians). Once we become Christians we have the Holy Spirit living in us. One would not experience the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity w/o Jesus's death on the cross. However, this IS very complicated--three are one, etc. is all complicated. I do not understand it fully and do not expect to.

Everything is not crystal clear but I believe salvation is. I think we try (or not even try) to make that part complicated while it is so simple that a child can understand the basics of it.




.

Please don't think I'm picking on you, but this is the explanation of God that we all have know since we were little and there's no way we fully grasp it.

What do you mean by son? By Holy Spirit? By "sent"?

These are concepts that only God can understand.

I think that sometimes people try to define the undefinable because the alternative is the frustration of not being able to conceptualize it.

I have surrendered my frustration and can accept that God has a plan for me, that through his grace their is salvation. I don't have to understand exactly how this happens. I know what he wants for me, and am humble enough to conceive of there being much more to it.

Daisax said it very well. I understand your need to simplify it, but that doesn't mean you can write the cliff notes for the world and expect everyone to accept it.

 

[disneymom3]

I'm sorry. But I'm not a simplistic child who has absolutely no knowledge of history and has no questions.

I try not to question God. But I do question the bible and the beliefs of people because of my knowledge. Fact is, that God gave me the brains to have this knowledge to question things.
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?...ay_order=3&sub_display_order=16&mini_id=53426
"The Gospels are first because they tell the story of Jesus, but they were written between 70 and 90, as much as 60 years after his death. The Acts of the Apostles is also from this period. The Epistles of Paul, however, are earlier; they date from the decade between 50 and 60 because they were written at the very time Paul was involved in missionary work. The remaining books, which can be dated between 90 and 150, reflect church conditions of the postapostolic period. Second, the documents do not evidence much interest in history as a chronological process, partly because their authors believed in the impending end of history. Third, the New Testament is not one book but an ecclesiastical collection, preserved for the specific purposes of worship, preaching, teaching, and polemics. Fourth, all the documents were written by advocates of the Christian faith for purposes of proclamation and instruction; hence, although they contain historical references, they are not pieces of historical reporting."

Paul, on whom so much of the bible depends, started his missionary work about 40 years after the death of Christ. He never met Jesus, never even heard him speak.
Pretty much the entire New Testament was written second hand. Not by Jesus, Himself.
Even some of the stories about the same things differ in some areas. How can anyone be absolutely sure that what the bible says that Jesus said is absolutely correct?

As stated previously, people read different things into words and sayings. People also hear and remember things differently.
Have you never had to do the experiment where a group of people sit in a circle? One person whispers a short story to the person next to them. That person passes it on to the next. By the time it gets through everyone, the story has almost completely changed.

This is how come I cannot trust what the bible says as fact.

I have a suggestion for you. There is a good book out there called The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. In it he presents the research he has done including talking to many historians who have ample support for the idea that the gospels were not written that much later and that the original estimates of their dates were off and through various other historical documents that have been unearthed fairly recently support various happenings that are mentioned in the Bible. Strobel originally started to research the book as an aetheist and his goal was to prove that the Bible was nonsense. However, in the process of his research, he became a Christian.

At any rate, it is a good book and you might find it interesting.

 

[Wishing on a star]

About whether Christ died for some, or for all...

It is not the will of god that any man should perish...


I DO think that the Scriptures are the WORD, and the sole authority..

However, once a person decides to apply 'their own understanding' to scripture, and their own interpretations and explanations... instead of focusing on God's overall message... that is the problem.

Arguing issues and pushing others to accept ones own 'understanding' of issues that are simply far beyond our realm of understanding is 'leaning on thine own understanding', instead of simply accepting by faith.

One must remember that their personal 'understanding' is not necessarily the fullness of 'truth'.

 

[Buckalew11]

Please don't think I'm picking on you, but this is the explanation of God that we all have know since we were little and there's no way we fully grasp it.

What do you mean by son? By Holy Spirit? By "sent"?

These are concepts that only God can understand.

I think that sometimes people try to define the undefinable because the alternative is the frustration of not being able to conceptualize it.

I have surrendered my frustration and can accept that God has a plan for me, that through his grace their is salvation. I don't have to understand exactly how this happens. I know what he wants for me, and am humble enough to conceive of there being much more to it.

Daisax said it very well. I understand your need to simplify it, but that doesn't mean you can write the cliff notes for the world and expect everyone to accept it.

Oh I do not think you are picking on me. I just do not understand why you think we cannot understand the Son being sent and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. Yes, I realize it is all complex but I also think the basics are understood.

Although I have and ask a million questions, I am not frustrated. So, realize there are things that I will never understand or grasp and that is fine with me. My trust is in God. So far, He's done alright so I think I can trust Him with my life. I, too, am humble and accept the fact that I will not understand everything. I don't even feel the need to think I need to know everything. As long as I understand salvation and that he will always be with me through everything I face, I'm good to go.

You think I'm writing cliff notes about God. I think I'm just saying simply what the plan of salvation is in an easy to understand way. I do not think it is wrong to wonder how to be right with God. I do not think it is wrong to trust the Bible to know that one can know how to be right with God. I think it is a blessing to have that assurance.

 

[daisax]

I very strongly disagree... which is why I would never join Catholocism..

In vain they preach the words of men... (instead of the WORD of god)

Scripture only (sola scriptura) is a Protestant concept. Jews (as far as I'm aware) and Catholics believe that tradition preceded the Torah/Bible and in the case of Christianity, Christianity existed for decades before any of the New Testament was written, and it took hundreds of years before what we now call the New Testment was made "official."

The scriptures a Catholic would quote for the authority of tradition would be:

Paul to the Corinthians:
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2)

Paul to the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

Paul was writing letters to far flung congregations to instruct them -- he wasn't writing "The Bible" per se. He was elaborating on doctrines they were already practicing or had questions about.

 

[bluefairy13]

Oh I do not think you are picking on me. I just do not understand why you think we cannot understand the Son being sent and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. Yes, I realize it is all complex but I also think the basics are understood.

Although I have and ask a million questions, I am not frustrated. So, realize there are things that I will never understand or grasp and that is fine with me. My trust is in God. So far, He's done alright so I think I can trust Him with my life. I, too, am humble and accept the fact that I will not understand everything. I don't even feel the need to think I need to know everything. As long as I understand salvation and that he will always be with me through everything I face, I'm good to go.

You think I'm writing cliff notes about God. I think I'm just saying simply what the plan of salvation is in an easy to understand way. I do not think it is wrong to wonder how to be right with God. I do not think it is wrong to trust the Bible to know that one can know how to be right with God. I think it is a blessing to have that assurance.

This is a pretty deep discussion, LOL.

I understand that concept of the Holy Spirit, for example, but cannot explain exactly what it is? Can you? Where does it dwell in you? How is that possible?

You and I know the short answers, but we don't know the long ones. We know as much as we need to know.

You are writing the Cliff notes on the Bible, if you think there is not much more to it than we can understand. I truly believe that and I don't say that disrespectfully, just truthfully.

I can conceive that there is a bigger picture and much much much more than I could ever conceive of. I believe what you believe, I just think it is bigger, more. And I think there is more to it than either of us can know.

I don't know what else to say. I just would never limit God and say that I have all the answers. And if you are saying that some of us are wrong about what we believe, you are saying you have all the answers.

 

[Buckalew11]

Well, I'm out of this one because I am not going to go back through this thread and quote how many times I have stated I do not know all the answers and that I do think there is way more to all of this than we can ever understand.

For some reason, you are not wanting to hear that part. I am not disagreeing with you. I know that God is very complex and we cannot understand everything about Him.

I do not know what else to say either. I have said I do not have all the answers but I do have one...salvation comes through Jesus Christ. I am not saying you have to agree with it or you have to believe it. You are certainly free to believe however you would like--everyone is.

I'm answering the OP's question. It is what I believe. It is an answer, not all the answers. You do not accept my answer and that is fine with me. I do not expect everyone to say I am right. Believe whatever you want. I do. I think it is the truth but I am certainly not forcing anyone to believe it with me.