A prayer at my public HS Reunion...

[annegal]

At my old job, the boss "found religion" and every meeting & every company party began with a prayer. I refused to bow my head.

 

[eclectics]

In may have been inappropriate, but it's completely irrelevant that it was for a public high school unless the reunion was organized by and put on at the school itself.

It is relevant, if only for the fact that public school students usually run the gamut of different beliefs and non-beliefs. Doesn't matter where the reunion was held. It's the group of students that matters. If it was a parochial school reunion, a prayer might not be inappropriate, even if it was being held at the Holiday Inn.

 

[golfgal]

In may have been inappropriate, but it's completely irrelevant that it was for a public high school unless the reunion was organized by and put on at the school itself.

Actually, legally it wouldn't matter if the event was sponsored by the school or not, first, they are not attendees of the school so they are not bound by school rules, second, no one was FORCED to pray and that in itself absolves anyone of any criminal wrong doing, third, the law in the Constitution is freedom OF religion, NOT freedom FROM religion which is where most people confuse matters. It is perfectly legal to pry in a public school, what is NOT legal is if someone from the school MAKES you pray--HUGE difference!

Now, as for the committee organizer praying, I don't think she was rude at all unless she was pointing a gun at everyone and saying 'pray or else". There are a lot of people of ALL faiths that prefer to pray before eating and she gave people that opportunity--they didn't have to follow her prayer, they could have said their own at that time.

 

[eclectics]

Now, as for the committee organizer praying, I don't think she was rude at all unless she was pointing a gun at everyone and saying 'pray or else". There are a lot of people of ALL faiths that prefer to pray before eating and she gave people that opportunity--they didn't have to follow her prayer, .

Or she could have said a silent prayer to herself and let others do the same, if they so chose.

 

[chager]

The way I see it this person was part of the organizing team. Others most likely knew it was going to happen. They organized it. If someone doesn't want prayer involved then they should help organize the event to prevent it. I went to a public school, no problem with prayer for me. I like the idea. If you don't like it then don't bow your head and participate. My aunt's family is Mormon, they(as in her family, not necessarily the church) don't feel that they should participate in any prayer with anyone outside of their religion. So at Thanksgiving they just sit with their arms crossed during the prayer. Since they don't orgnize the dinner they don't say anything. When they organize the dinner we don't pray outloud, just individually. Again it is all in who organizes the event. I just felt lucky to have a 20th reunion this year. We didn't think it would happen. There was some strangness to it, but I didn't help organize it so I have no right to say anything.

 

[drgnfly30]

Now, as for the committee organizer praying, I don't think she was rude at all unless she was pointing a gun at everyone and saying 'pray or else". There are a lot of people of ALL faiths that prefer to pray before eating and she gave people that opportunity--they didn't have to follow her prayer, they could have said their own at that time.

If it had been presented as such (ie. If you'd like, please join us in prayer) or even a moment of silence for the classmates that have passed but it wasn't (nor was it before sitting down to eat). It was Committee member #1 saying some opening comments "thanks for coming, it was a lot of hard work, it's great seeing everyone, the trivia can be turned in over there" then she hands the microphone to Committee member #2 & BAM out of left field "Please, bow your head & pray" It was a pretty God based prayer too... ETA: I'm NOT positive that the other committee members KNEW it was going to happen (or at least like that)....

ETA:

The way I see it this person was part of the organizing team. Others most likely knew it was going to happen. They organized it. If someone doesn't want prayer involved then they should help organize the event to prevent it. .....There was some strangness to it, but I didn't help organize it so I have no right to say anything.

Wasn't given an opportunity to volunteer, but I'd like to think my $110 per couple gives me a right to vent about it!!!

 

[KristaTX]

We always have one. It's actually a moment of silence for our passed classmates followed by a blessing. I'll take a blessing from anyone. I don't think it's unusual and although I have plenty of atheist friends, I don't think they'd be suprised either. Eh, just one of those things that are not important enuf to battle over.

Exactly. This is not directed at the thread starter, but I just don't get why so many people here on the DIS so enjoy looking for the tiniest thing to get upset about . Schools typically don't have anything to do with class reunions, so it's not a church/state type matter at all. The event was probably a private one, and whoever planned it could pretty much do whatever they wanted. Sheesh. It was a prayer. If a prayer at a private event is so offensive to you, go wash your hands or something during it . Or go through the major hassle of planning the next one and do it your way. Then you can see what people who did nothing to help organize it find to nit-pick and gripe about.

 

[azgal81]

Very odd!

 

[smartestnumber5]

Actually, legally it wouldn't matter if the event was sponsored by the school or not, first, they are not attendees of the school so they are not bound by school rules, second, no one was FORCED to pray and that in itself absolves anyone of any criminal wrong doing, third, the law in the Constitution is freedom OF religion, NOT freedom FROM religion which is where most people confuse matters. It is perfectly legal to pry in a public school, what is NOT legal is if someone from the school MAKES you pray--HUGE difference!

Now, as for the committee organizer praying, I don't think she was rude at all unless she was pointing a gun at everyone and saying 'pray or else". There are a lot of people of ALL faiths that prefer to pray before eating and she gave people that opportunity--they didn't have to follow her prayer, they could have said their own at that time.

I don't think anyone was approaching this as a constitutional issue since there was no state institution involved.

Also, I'm pretty sure the legality of public school prayer does not hang on whether or not students are forced to partake in it, but whether or not the prayer is sponsored by agents of the state. Thus, students can pray anytime they want silently, and they can do so outloud during any non-teaching hours. But teachers cannot sponsor a prayer even with the caveat that students can choose to remain silent during it. (At least, this is my understanding of constitutional law--I could be wrong.)

I would have no problem with offering people the chance to pray so long as EVERY group is given an equal chance. Hence there'd have to be a Hindu blessing (which might make mention of more than one deity), a Muslim blessing (including the various postures involved), a Buddhist meditation (which as far as I understand would not be a thanking or greeting or request to an actual personified being), a Jewish prayer (which couldn't make mention of Jesus), and all the other religions of course, plus a humanist, agnostic, and atheist blessing. I mean, why should only one group get the chance to have a blessing before they eat? Anything else seems rude. And if the atheists and Hindus don't get a blessing specific to them, why should there be a blessing which takes the traditional form of Christian prayer?

ETA: I also don't see how being an organizer makes it okay to make everyone at least tacitly take part in a prayer that only covers very few religions--and in fact directly contradicts the views of some people. If the organizers had all been liberals, would it have been perfectly acceptable and not rude at all for them to get up there and ask everyone to join them in a song about how stupid and evil Bush is? If that would be perfectly acceptable, I really need to start organizing some events like these--sounds like fun!

 

[golfgal]

I don't think anyone was approaching this as a constitutional issue since there was no state institution involved.

Also, I'm pretty sure the legality of public school prayer does not hang on whether or not students are forced to partake in it, but whether or not the prayer is sponsored by agents of the state. Thus, students can pray anytime they want silently, and they can do so outloud during any non-teaching hours. But teachers cannot sponsor a prayer even with the caveat that students can choose to remain silent during it. (At least, this is my understanding of constitutional law--I could be wrong.)

!

The Constitutionality of prayer in school completly hinges on required participation. A teacher can say a prayer at the beginning of every class, outloud, if s/he wants s/he just can't make the kids participate. A prayer could be said over the loud speaker every day if the school wanted, they just can't make a child participate in that prayer. If a school wants to sing a Christmas song at a concert they can, they just can't make a student participate in that song. A student also can't be disciplined for NOT participated (if there is a Halloween party at school for example and a Jehovah Witness student stays home it has to be an excused absence). Now most schools CHOOSE NOT to do these things because they have a parent or two that complain about such things but that still doesn't mean they can't do them.

This has gone all the way to the supreme court and their finding is based on FORCED participation. Again, it is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion meaning that I have the legal right to pray in school just as you have the legal right NOT to pray in school and you can't interfere with my rights and I can't interfere with your rights. Forcing a child to pray would be considered interfering with his right not to pray. See, it's simple really .

 

[Lizzy2]

I am a highly dedicated, pretty conservative born-again Christian and even I find it a little odd to be led in prayer out of the blue at a highschool reunion.
I think if it were introduced as a moment of silence for passed classmates that would be a lovely gesture but anything other than that is just kind of out of place. You just cannot presume that everyone will take kindly to it which is exactly what happened here. There is a time and place for everything. Even a blessing before a meal at such an event may be questionable for some even though it would not bother me. Last year, at my DH's Christmas banquet the boss led a blessing for the meal and I found that odd considering that everyone was standing around a bar getting sloshed!! To each his own!!

 

[smartestnumber5]

Exactly. This is not directed at the thread starter, but I just don't get why so many people here on the DIS so enjoy looking for the tiniest thing to get upset about . Schools typically don't have anything to do with class reunions, so it's not a church/state type matter at all. The event was probably a private one, and whoever planned it could pretty much do whatever they wanted. Sheesh. It was a prayer. If a prayer at a private event is so offensive to you, go wash your hands or something during it . Or go through the major hassle of planning the next one and do it your way. Then you can see what people who did nothing to help organize it find to nit-pick and gripe about.

Do you really think if an atheist gave an atheistic blessing or a Wiccan gave a Wiccan blessing or a follower of a polytheistic religion thanked multiple gods, that the only reaction wouldn't be "nit-picking" on behalf of non-atheists, Wiccans, and polytheists?

Personally I'd expect to get booed off the stage and probably screamed at and damned to hell if I expected a whole room full of people to tacitly participate in my atheist blessing.

 

[NewJersey]

Very rude and inappropriate indeed.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

Personally I'd expect to get booed off the stage and probably screamed at and damned to hell if I expected a whole room full of people to tacitly participate in my atheist blessing.

I guess that would depend on exactly what you mean by an "atheist blessing."

If it is simply a moment to collectively join thoughts in gratitude of togetherness or whatever, I can't imagine people would be all that anxious to damn you to hell over it.

If it is your prior example of wanting to recite an argument that demonstrates God doesn't exist --- well then that would also be extremely odd and inappropriate. I'm not sure exactly how the term "blessing" applies to that.

 

[Alex2kMommy]

It would not have surprised me one bit at my public HS reunion. Besides, wouldn't a reunion be considered a private event?

We graduated in the Reagan years, and had a very active religious Christian group on campus. One of the teachers ran a bible study before school in one of the classrooms, a youth minister and his assistant came to the school during lunchtimes to proselytize, and every concert, sporting event or other school function began with a prayer.

While I don't really care for a prayer being said publicly at these sort of events, I think the one who offered the prayer meant well, and hopefully had no intention of making people feel uncomfortable or excluded.

 

[eclectics]

While I don't really care for a prayer being said publicly at these sort of events, I think the one who offered the prayer meant well, and hopefully had no intention of making people feel uncomfortable or excluded.

I'm not singling you out personally, but I never could get the "he/she didn't mean any harm, it's only prayer for heaven's sake etc." argument. I do realize a lot of religious folk can't understand all the fuss that some people make because they just don't want to hear someone else pray in a public venue. But they do, and people should respect the fact that some find any public prayer offensive, especially in a place where they are not expecting it to occur.

 

[Carl]

Sue! Sue! Sue!

 

[Cool-Beans]

Totally inappropriate, not to mention rude, but I wouldn't get myself all worked up over it.

I wouldn't join in, but I'd forget about it when it was over.

 

[smartestnumber5]

The Constitutionality of prayer in school completly hinges on required participation. A teacher can say a prayer at the beginning of every class, outloud, if s/he wants s/he just can't make the kids participate. A prayer could be said over the loud speaker every day if the school wanted, they just can't make a child participate in that prayer. If a school wants to sing a Christmas song at a concert they can, they just can't make a student participate in that song. A student also can't be disciplined for NOT participated (if there is a Halloween party at school for example and a Jehovah Witness student stays home it has to be an excused absence). Now most schools CHOOSE NOT to do these things because they have a parent or two that complain about such things but that still doesn't mean they can't do them.

This has gone all the way to the supreme court and their finding is based on FORCED participation. Again, it is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion meaning that I have the legal right to pray in school just as you have the legal right NOT to pray in school and you can't interfere with my rights and I can't interfere with your rights. Forcing a child to pray would be considered interfering with his right not to pray. See, it's simple really .

Except this is decidely not what the Supreme Court has said on the subject:

Engel v. Vitale
Docket: 468
Citation: 370 U.S. 421 (1962)
Petitioner: Engel
Respondent: Vitale


Case Media

* Oral Argument
* Written Opinion (Justia)

Abstract
Oral Argument: April 3, 1962
Decision: June 25, 1962
Subjects: First Amendment, Establishment of Religion


Advocates
William J. Butler (Argued the cause for the petitioners)
Porter R. Chandler (Argued the cause for the intervenors-respondents)
Bertram B. Daiker (Argued the cause for the respondents)

Facts of the Case

The Board of Regents for the State of New York authorized a short, voluntary prayer for recitation at the start of each school day. This was an attempt to defuse the politically potent issue by taking it out of the hands of local communities. The blandest of invocations read as follows: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and beg Thy blessings upon us, our teachers, and our country."

Question

Does the reading of a nondenominational prayer at the start of the school day violate the "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment?

Conclusion

Yes. Neither the prayer's nondenominational character nor its voluntary character saves it from unconstitutionality. By providing the prayer, New York officially approved religion. This was the first in a series of cases in which the Court used the establishment clause to eliminate religious activities of all sorts, which had traditionally been a part of public ceremonies. Despite the passage of time, the decision is still unpopular with a majority of Americans.

They have also said it is unconstitutional to display the 10 commandments and to read the bible over the intercom. They found that even a voluntary moment of silence is unconstitutional in public schools if it can be shown that the legislation creating these moments of silence had as its intent reinstating school prayer. (In fact, the Supreme Court argued in Lee v. Weisman that "voluntary" prayer led by a Rabbi at a graduation ceremony actually consituted a subtle kind of force since children, unlike adults, would be especially vulnerable to psychological coercion in which they might feel like they have to pray in order to fit in or in order to please their teachers. In a recent case the court even decided that student-sponsored prayer over the loudspeaker before a football game was unconstitutional and brought up the same issue of "voluntary" prayer involving subtle coercion.

Of course *YOU* (being a student--not an agent of the state) have a right to pray in school. But you do not have a right to have a state agent lead or begin that prayer, nor do you have a right to interupt class time with a prayer you lead, nor do you have the right to subject the rest of the student body to your praying over loudspeakers at events like football games, nor do you have the right to have your favored religious leader offer a prayer at a graduation ceremony.

I don't know where your slogan about freedom of and from religion comes from. But if it is supposed to mean that public school teachers can break into prayer anytime they want so long as they don't require students to participate, it doesn't seem represent what the law is very well at all. It's really as simple as what the Supreme Court has ACTUALLY said!

 

[noodleknitter]

If the person who did all the work wants to pray...have at it! Someone else needs to plan the 25th if folks don't want a replay. I think it was presumptuous, btw.

PS...there isn't enough money in this world to make me plan a HS reunion. Love going to them... I don't care for crass jolks, but there are always plenty. My friend won't go to hers, because they are segregated. Either it is worth putting up with the stuff, or not.