A "is this a good college" thread for all college searchers...

[bethbuchall]

Honestly though, for most people that can get into Carleton, they can probably also get into an Ivy and THAT will cost them less but a LOT-unless they have an adjusted gross over $180K-they will pay $18,000/year or less.

So, then, it's not for the typical student with a 3.5 average and decent, but not perfect, test scores?

Maybe I need to go back to what you consider getting most of the college education costs covered. Approximately how much do you think that a majority of the college students in your area are paying for college per year including loan amounts?

 

[golfgal]

Yeah, I think that may be a big factor. Our efc is $87,000/year and I think we're a pretty average income here. There are top students who can shop themselves around for great packages. But the average kid is not getting the merit aid that makes the privates cost-competitive. Otherwise, it would not be merit aid. It never occurred to me to consider loan offers in a package as bringing down the cost-of-attendance, but that might be part of the equation for some.

It's really quite possible when people are talking about getting full-rides and near full-rides elsewhere, there's a lot of need-based aid packaged in there. No one is going to make that distinction when talking about their kid's offers and it's no one's business anyway. But people should be careful about making sweeping generalizations about the costs of privates vs. publics when they don't really know all the details about these packages.

I plugged some VERY rough numbers into an EFC calculator and at an adjusted gross income of $200,000, the EFC contribution came out at $61,000. I didn't put in any info for home equity since so many people are down to about zero on that or close enough. No one is making "sweeping generalizations" if you read that most people have said OFTEN it is less expensive to go to a private school vs public and to don't shop on price alone UNTIL you get your aid package. The point people are trying to make is that many people see a $50K price tag and automatically discount going there because they can't afford it. Yes, that may in fact be the case when all is said and done but it isn't always the case.

 

[j's m]

I mentioned earlier the full merit scholarships at Washington & Lee University and The University of Richmond. Washington and Lee offers substantially more than U of R.....about 45 kids a year enter on full merit offers, including Room & Board and summer study awards.

Have your child's SATs gone up since the 2070 sophomore year though? Is it a full AP, Honors, IB curriculum?

W & L is on our radar, we saw our VA cousins yesterday but they didn't really know anything about it other than it was a beautiful campus!

He hasn't taken the SATs again, is scheduled for June. They did do a full Kaplan practice test at his HS and Kaplan scored it at 2170. He knows he has to bring up his math portion and needs at least 2250 which I know he can do if he really tries.

He has always had honors classes, AP US history last year and AP Chem and AP Govt and Politics this year. Next year he has 5 AP classes and honors physics.

 

[j's m]

I have never heard of Bucknell so I looked it up:
http://www.bucknell.edu/x44239.xml

The site here says about 50% of their students receive aid

Compared to Carleton-similar cost, higher quality in MN:

http://apps.carleton.edu/admissions/topics/afford/

Big difference is they meet 100% of need AND have a huge endowment so their average grant from the COLLEGE-not state or federal is over $23,000. If you read the testimonials on this page, kids are saying the same thing everyone here is saying, in this area you get aid, elsewhere you don't.

Another similar cost/quality school: http://www.macalester.edu/admissions/financialaid/ again meeting 100% of aid-average aid package over $33K.

Our problem is that what they think we need and what I think we need are two different things.

Yes, they offer need based aid but we wouldn't qualify for much because they don't take into consideration our higher cost of living here such as the highest property taxes in the nation.

The other thing with the 500/1000 scholarships is that they come off of your need based aid/loans/institutional aid, not your EFC. So you can drive yourself crazy getting small scholarships and then still have a huge EFC and get no need based aid.

 

[kbeverina]

Honestly though, for most people that can get into Carleton, they can probably also get into an Ivy and THAT will cost them less but a LOT-unless they have an adjusted gross over $180K-they will pay $18,000/year or less.

That's quite an overstatement. Carleton is a great school, for sure. But the acceptance rate is over 30%. Ivies are less than 10%. Even Bucknell has a lower acceptance rate than Carleton. I'm surprised you've never heard of Bucknell. It has one of the top 10 engineering programs in the country.

 

[sharbear]

My D was accepted to Bucknell. She really liked the school and it was her solid #2 choice. They do not have many merit scholarships but I am sure they said they met 100% need. Unfortunately their idea of our need and ours were different. Other schools gave us a better financial aid package and she decided on another school which we've been very happy with. My D applied to Washington and Lee, she was waitlisted but we didn't visit and didn't have much interest there so I understood the waitlist. I think it would be a great choice for a kid who likes Bucknell and Lafayette.

It's hard for kids on the east coast. Salaries are higher there and so is cost of living. It's hard for many of the good schools there which do not offer a lot in merit scholarships.

j'm, my D looked at Bucknell and Lafayette, really nice schools. Laf has some merit scholarships so maybe he could qualify for something there. I don't know what he is thinking as far as a major or location but there are many schools in Ohio which would have some of the same attributes but do offer merit scholarships. Kenyon or Denison are two that I am thinking of. Oberlin is nice but if he likes Laf and Bucknell, not really the same type of student. A little lower ranked but Wittenberg, Wooster and Ohio Wesleyan. DePauw in IN also.

My kids had good grades and good ACT scores. We found that they got offers from private schools which made them par on a public school price. We did not have a lot of luck with private scholarships.

I found that what I heard from other people as to scholarships was different that my acutal experience with my kids. They all seemed to have great offers which did not happen for my kids. Just my personal experience.

 

[Green Tea]

I can read--average application standards on their website.

But you don't "Know" Bucknell at all; that is what you said. Maybe they accept a higher percentage of applicants, but those kids have a higher percentage of graduate school acceptances. Maybe Carlton is higher ranked in one source, but not in another. Maybe the freshman retention rate is higher at Bucknell than at Carlton. Maybe the Student Satisfaction Survey results are higher at Bucknell than Carlton. I'm not saying any of these things are true, because I DON'T KNOW. I'm not going to say it as fact if I took 20 seconds to read one part of a website.

 

[golfgal]

So, then, it's not for the typical student with a 3.5 average and decent, but not perfect, test scores?

Maybe I need to go back to what you consider getting most of the college education costs covered. Approximately how much do you think that a majority of the college students in your area are paying for college per year including loan amounts?

I would say that "most" people here pay under $5000/year out of pocket and the students take out maybe $5500 in loan (max because that is all you can take in the federal student loans). Most people are not taking private loans out, at least those that I know of. DS18 took out $2300 in student loans this year. $5000 vs $17-21K at a state school is the bulk of their school costs. $5000 out of $40K at a private school is very much the bulk of their costs.

Ok, I googled "average salaries in VA" and landed on a site called "Pay Scale" It listed 7 cities in VA and I added up those salaries and divided by 7. Came up with an average salary of $63,535. Same site using MN (it listed the 7 largest cities in MN so assuming it was the same for VA) with an average salary of $47,605. That is pretty significant difference. Obviously there are larger salaries and smaller ones too. Our 3 towns with the highest per capita income were not listed and I would assume it would be the same for VA. Take the same site for NC and you come up with an average salary of $51,387.

 

[Green Tea]

Kenyon or Denison are two that I am thinking of.

I like these 2 as well. Great places for kids who are looking for a rural environment. The athletic facilities at Kenyon are amazing!

 

[j's m]

Honestly though, for most people that can get into Carleton, they can probably also get into an Ivy and THAT will cost them less but a LOT-unless they have an adjusted gross over $180K-they will pay $18,000/year or less.

Not necessarily. From Harvard's website:

Those parents with annual incomes of between $120,000 and $180,000 are asked to contribute an average ten percent of their income, with a declining percentage — from ten to zero — for parents with annual incomes between $120,000 and $60,000.

Families with higher incomes facing unusual financial challenges may also qualify for need–based scholarship assistance, yet those with significant assets at all income levels are asked to contribute proportionately more.

They don't define significant assets, kind of like all of us defining need.

 

[Green Tea]

We've covered a lot of the great, top ranked schools for the best students. Not all the kids are that top 5%. I would love to hear some suggestions of schools that take an average kid, or even a fairly subpar student, and do great things with them. Any suggestions?

 

[golfgal]

Not necessarily. From Harvard's website:

Those parents with annual incomes of between $120,000 and $180,000 are asked to contribute an average ten percent of their income, with a declining percentage — from ten to zero — for parents with annual incomes between $120,000 and $60,000.

Families with higher incomes facing unusual financial challenges may also qualify for need–based scholarship assistance, yet those with significant assets at all income levels are asked to contribute proportionately more.

They don't define significant assets, kind of like all of us defining need.

Now you are getting knit picky with wording. Many people with "significant" assets don't have a high annual income. People living off retirement dollars, for example, could very well have ZERO income, but have assets providing them with $2,000,000 in cash each year. They are reported on different lines on your tax forms. I know several people looking at Ivy's for this year and the next couple that make under $180K and have "normal" assets for their income class-they WILL pay between zero and $18,000 according to everything they have been told by the schools themselves. This is just the school covering themselves if someone transfers all of their holdings into a trust or something similar, yet have disposable incomes in the many millions.

 

[kbeverina]

I plugged some VERY rough numbers into an EFC calculator and at an adjusted gross income of $200,000, the EFC contribution came out at $61,000. I didn't put in any info for home equity since so many people are down to about zero on that or close enough. No one is making "sweeping generalizations" if you read that most people have said OFTEN it is less expensive to go to a private school vs public and to don't shop on price alone UNTIL you get your aid package. The point people are trying to make is that many people see a $50K price tag and automatically discount going there because they can't afford it. Yes, that may in fact be the case when all is said and done but it isn't always the case.

Here's the thing. People have said over and over, yes, that can be true. People don't constantly tell you that your experience is not the case for you and the people you know. You're the one who's always telling other people who have not found this to be the case where they are that they are wrong. I don't get it.

My experience is that private schools can offer great packages, but they usually aren't less than the publics in actual cost-of-attendance. Maybe the difference is that there's not a lot of need-based aid in there, it's primarily merit. I don't know. My experience is that the kids who get fabulous scholarships and full-rides are the truly top kids and I'm always duly impressed with them.

Someone who is not familiar with schools like UNC Chapel Hill, Duke and Bucknell is not really the expert on all things higher education and could stand to take into account what other people say. I'm no expert either. I do talk to a lot parents and am reporting accurately what I'm finding to be the case around here.

 

[golfgal]

Here's the thing. People have said over and over, yes, that can be true. People don't constantly tell you that your experience is not the case for you and the people you know. You're the one who's always telling other people who have not found this to be the case where they are that they are wrong. I don't get it.

My experience is that private schools can offer great packages, but they usually aren't less than the publics in actual cost-of-attendance. Maybe the difference is that there's not a lot of need-based aid in there, it's primarily merit. I don't know. My experience is that the kids who get fabulous scholarships and full-rides are the truly top kids and I'm always duly impressed with them.

Someone who is not familiar with schools like UNC Chapel Hill, Duke and Bucknell is not really the expert on all things higher education and could stand to take into account what other people say. I'm no expert either. I do talk to a lot parents and am reporting accurately what I'm finding to be the case around here.

I am just as much of an "expert" as anyone else here. So what if I have never heard of "Bucknell", I would say that most people outside of your region have not either. So many of these top local schools you assume people know because they have such a strong reputation in your area but that isn't the case nationwide. I am sure you couldn't name the top schools in South Dakota off the top of your head.

I know of 3 people that went to Duke-all on full ride athletic scholarships-one that didn't go to Duke even with a 5 year full ride offer to play volleyball (STILL don't know why she turned that down -to play at Kansas ). No, a lot of people here don't go to the Carolina's for school for the same reasons people from the Carolina's don't come here-it is really far away (that and the weather here ). When DS18 was touring his school one of the kids in his group was from Georgia. His mom asked "so, just how cold does it get here" The school is in northern MN . He was trying to make the hockey team there (didn't make the team so I don't know if he went there or not).

The point being, DON'T COLLEGE SHOP ON THE INITIAL PRICE TAG--no matter where you live.

 

[kbeverina]

I am just as much of an "expert" as anyone else here. So what if I have never heard of "Bucknell", I would say that most people outside of your region have not either. So many of these top local schools you assume people know because they have such a strong reputation in your area but that isn't the case nationwide. I am sure you couldn't name the top schools in South Dakota off the top of your head.

I know of 3 people that went to Duke-all on full ride athletic scholarships-one that didn't go to Duke even with a 5 year full ride offer to play volleyball (STILL don't know why she turned that down -to play at Kansas ). No, a lot of people here don't go to the Carolina's for school for the same reasons people from the Carolina's don't come here-it is really far away (that and the weather here ). When DS18 was touring his school one of the kids in his group was from Georgia. His mom asked "so, just how cold does it get here" The school is in northern MN . He was trying to make the hockey team there (didn't make the team so I don't know if he went there or not).

The point being, DON'T COLLEGE SHOP ON THE INITIAL PRICE TAG--no matter where you live.

I'm not knocking you for being unfamiliar with these schools. I'm knocking you for making assessments about schools you're not familiar with.

 

[jrmasm]

I am just as much of an "expert" as anyone else here. So what if I have never heard of "Bucknell", I would say that most people outside of your region have not either. So many of these top local schools you assume people know because they have such a strong reputation in your area but that isn't the case nationwide. I am sure you couldn't name the top schools in South Dakota off the top of your head.

I know of 3 people that went to Duke-all on full ride athletic scholarships-one that didn't go to Duke even with a 5 year full ride offer to play volleyball (STILL don't know why she turned that down -to play at Kansas ). No, a lot of people here don't go to the Carolina's for school for the same reasons people from the Carolina's don't come here-it is really far away (that and the weather here ). When DS18 was touring his school one of the kids in his group was from Georgia. His mom asked "so, just how cold does it get here" The school is in northern MN . He was trying to make the hockey team there (didn't make the team so I don't know if he went there or not).

The point being, DON'T COLLEGE SHOP ON THE INITIAL PRICE TAG--no matter where you live.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that with athletic scholarships there is no such thing as a 4 year or 5 year full ride scholarship. It is my understanding that athletic money is given one year at a time with no guarantees that the money will be there from year to year.

 

[Green Tea]

I am just as much of an "expert" as anyone else here. .

If you want to learn more, read The Chronicle; A great trade publication for the field of higher ed.

 

[golfgal]

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that with athletic scholarships there is no such thing as a 4 year or 5 year full ride scholarship. It is my understanding that athletic money is given one year at a time with no guarantees that the money will be there from year to year.

Yes, you are correct-athletic scholarships are OFFERED for 4 or 5 years annually renewable and can be revoked for any number of reasons but generally speaking when people talk of athletic scholarships it is assumed they will stay and play for 4-5 years. Now, if there is an injury or whatnot that prevents them from playing, obviously the money goes away.

Same goes for any "Presidential Scholarships" colleges offer and even private scholarships that are full ride or any major size-they are "available" for the student for 4 years but the student needs to meet the minimum standards to KEEP them.

 

[jrmasm]

Yes, you are correct-athletic scholarships are OFFERED for 4 or 5 years annually renewable and can be revoked for any number of reasons but generally speaking when people talk of athletic scholarships it is assumed they will stay and play for 4-5 years. Now, if there is an injury or whatnot that prevents them from playing, obviously the money goes away.

Same goes for any "Presidential Scholarships" colleges offer and even private scholarships that are full ride or any major size-they are "available" for the student for 4 years but the student needs to meet the minimum standards to KEEP them.

D1 college athletes are commodities to the schools. The athletes may assume that they're going to going to that school for 4-5 years but the schools don't assume that. It is not unheard of for seniors to not have money.

 

[Green Tea]

Some schools would continue to support the injured player. Not all, but some. It is a good question in inquire about before committing.