A "is this a good college" thread for all college searchers...

[Green Tea]

For families with low incomes but very bright students, look at questbridge.org. They have partner colleges that they work with for this population of high schooler. It is an amazing organization for the right student.

 

[golfgal]

Golfgal -- honestly, not that I know anything about it, but did Carthage in Racine, WI hit your radar for golf schools? One of the guys from our Boy Scout troop is there on a golf scholarship, playing on the team. He's studying, I think, golf course management. I would assume they have a girls' team as well. And they hand out a fair amount of money -- we also know a girl who's going there for education, and know her family isn't paying much out of pocket.

No, we haven't looked into a lot of schools for DD yet. She is supposed to be working on that so we can visit some this summer but you know, that social life gets in the way . There are also NCAA considerations for sports recruiting so we do have to watch out for those. Technically coaches can't contact her until after her junior season and she is only a sophomore. We can do on campus visits and initiate contact that way but they can't really follow up for over a year. Our best friend's DD is at Carthage right now and loves it. Her dorm room overlooks the lake and is amazing. Carthage is Division III so they don't give golf scholarships.

I have a question about the bolded. Don't ANY of the people you know make too much to qualify for need based aid? Many if not most of the top schools (where you have said you know kids attend) give only need based aid. All of the people you know who attend those schools qualify for need based financial aid? Are salaries lower in Minnesota or something because we've had many people on this thread who don't qualify, who have a very high EFC. So if those people's kids attend a school that gives only need based aid, they'd be paying full price. But it seems like everyone you know gets financial aid.

Most of the kids we know DO get some financial aid from top schools-Notre Dame, Harvard, etc. DO meet 100% of student need and at $50K+, it's not all that difficult to qualify for aid but most of the TOP, TOP students get private scholarships as well. Some of what they get are student loans but those are capped at $5500/year so even 4 years of full loans isn't bad. If these kids went to state schools that only cost $17K they probably wouldn't qualify for "aid" but would still get some merit scholarships. Our DD's friend at Notre Dame, for example, got a private scholarship worth $20K each year-that would have fully paid for a state school here so no need for more aid. It takes a BIG chunk off her ND bill too. Her parents said that they pay about $500/month to cover the rest of what isn't covered. $5000/year isn't too bad I don't think.

There is another thread going, the 2011 thread I think, about schools that meet/don't meet need. You will see that a lot of those schools are in the midwest and I know that it isn't a complete list as there are several smaller schools not on that list that I KNOW meet need.

This isn't a MN thing, it's a Midwest thing. Other posters from the Midwest report the same thing. Again, if you have a 3.5 and good test scores to back that up, the bulk of your schooling will be covered around here--provided you also take the time to fill out scholarship applications too. Our high school has ONE application for a lot of the smaller, local ones, so that is nice. At awards day they hand out something like 1 million in smaller, local scholarships. Many of them are $500-1000 but if you get 4 or 5 of them, it adds up. Most of the sports booster clubs even offer scholarships, $500 or so, for kids that participated in that sport in high school. Don't your schools or areas do this?

 

[Christine]

I'm just going to jump in and say I found the exact opposite to be true on the east coast. Myself and most of my closest friends were all in the top 10% of our class. Besides the top 5 of us (who all got the same scholarship, from the same state school), no one had most of their schooling paid for from scholarships/grants. I don't know about loans, but in my opinion that doesn't really count as free money. We all came from middle class families, so too much to get any reasonable financial aide, but also not enough to actually pay private school prices.

I'm not saying this to disagree with golfgal, but as she mentioned things seem to be particularly different between the east coast and the Minnesota area. So I agree with MrsPete's (and others) experience in the east. Except New Jersey seems to be completely different, with those students going to schools in all the surrounding states. Maybe I need to move to Minnesota before I have college age kids.

This is our experience on the east coast too. I know pretty much NO ONE that gets most of the college paid through private scholarships. At the most, I've seen people get $1,000. I think income levels are very high on the east coast, due to cost of living. Unfortanately private and government aid do not factor this in.

I work with a woman who has 5 kids, 3 in college. Both her and her husband work, they are squarely middle class, her kids get good grades and she gets nothing but loan offers.

 

[AshleyW]

No, we haven't looked into a lot of schools for DD yet. She is supposed to be working on that so we can visit some this summer but you know, that social life gets in the way . There are also NCAA considerations for sports recruiting so we do have to watch out for those. Technically coaches can't contact her until after her junior season and she is only a sophomore. We can do on campus visits and initiate contact that way but they can't really follow up for over a year. Our best friend's DD is at Carthage right now and loves it. Her dorm room overlooks the lake and is amazing. Carthage is Division III so they don't give golf scholarships.



Most of the kids we know DO get some financial aid from top schools-Notre Dame, Harvard, etc. DO meet 100% of student need and at $50K+, it's not all that difficult to qualify for aid but most of the TOP, TOP students get private scholarships as well. Some of what they get are student loans but those are capped at $5500/year so even 4 years of full loans isn't bad. If these kids went to state schools that only cost $17K they probably wouldn't qualify for "aid" but would still get some merit scholarships. Our DD's friend at Notre Dame, for example, got a private scholarship worth $20K each year-that would have fully paid for a state school here so no need for more aid. It takes a BIG chunk off her ND bill too. Her parents said that they pay about $500/month to cover the rest of what isn't covered. $5000/year isn't too bad I don't think.

There is another thread going, the 2011 thread I think, about schools that meet/don't meet need. You will see that a lot of those schools are in the midwest and I know that it isn't a complete list as there are several smaller schools not on that list that I KNOW meet need.

This isn't a MN thing, it's a Midwest thing. Other posters from the Midwest report the same thing. Again, if you have a 3.5 and good test scores to back that up, the bulk of your schooling will be covered around here--provided you also take the time to fill out scholarship applications too. Our high school has ONE application for a lot of the smaller, local ones, so that is nice. At awards day they hand out something like 1 million in smaller, local scholarships. Many of them are $500-1000 but if you get 4 or 5 of them, it adds up. Most of the sports booster clubs even offer scholarships, $500 or so, for kids that participated in that sport in high school. Don't your schools or areas do this?

I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and got a 30 on my ACT, and only got about $1500 in misc scholarships my first year at Iowa - not exactly the "bulk" when I had a $15k tuition/boarding bill. I only know a few kids in my class that had most of their school covered.

 

[taitai]

In terms of tuition breaks, look to the ivies. Yes, they only have a 7% acceptance rate, but for middle income families, they cover a LOT due to their huge endowments. I know Yale and Harvard both cover ALL tuition if the family income is below $45-50K and reduce the tuition to something less than 10% of family income for families with income less than $125K or so.

Other private schools are instituting similar programs (I think they are fairly standard amongst the ivies).

 

[j's m]

I'm just going to jump in and say I found the exact opposite to be true on the east coast. Myself and most of my closest friends were all in the top 10% of our class. Besides the top 5 of us (who all got the same scholarship, from the same state school), no one had most of their schooling paid for from scholarships/grants. I don't know about loans, but in my opinion that doesn't really count as free money. We all came from middle class families, so too much to get any reasonable financial aide, but also not enough to actually pay private school prices.

I'm not saying this to disagree with golfgal, but as she mentioned things seem to be particularly different between the east coast and the Minnesota area. So I agree with MrsPete's (and others) experience in the east. Except New Jersey seems to be completely different, with those students going to schools in all the surrounding states. Maybe I need to move to Minnesota before I have college age kids.

My DS is a junior, number 2 in his large class, 4.0 unweighted, sophmore SAT 2070. We are going crazy looking for merit aid that would help our ridiculous EFC. The problem is that most schools within a reasonable distance do not offer enough merit aid, just need based. The majority of better schools also require CSS Profile, not just FAFSA so that totally kills us.

He wanted to go to Bucknell, very little merit aid. Other considerations are Susquehanna and Lafayette that offer some. But nowhere can we find full ride for merit, which would keep our retirement intact. I also don't consider loans to be meeting your needs when you already have a high EFC.

Anyone have any suggestions for the NJ, NY, PA, DE, MD, VA? Ideally would be 3 hours, for really good 6 hours, and if it's Harvard, he's going! And he doesn't want to go to Minnesota even though the merit aid is good.

 

[LukenDC]

In terms of tuition breaks, look to the ivies. Yes, they only have a 7% acceptance rate, but for middle income families, they cover a LOT due to their huge endowments. I know Yale and Harvard both cover ALL tuition if the family income is below $45-50K and reduce the tuition to something less than 10% of family income for families with income less than $125K or so.

Other private schools are instituting similar programs (I think they are fairly standard amongst the ivies).

I went to Yale on almost 100% financial aid. My parents were expected to pay $1,000 a year for my travel expenses and some incidentals. My brother's expenses at UC Santa Cruz, even after financial aid was factored in, cost my parents quite a bit more than my Yale expenses.

 

[golfgal]

This is our experience on the east coast too. I know pretty much NO ONE that gets most of the college paid through private scholarships. At the most, I've seen people get $1,000. I think income levels are very high on the east coast, due to cost of living. Unfortanately private and government aid do not factor this in.

I work with a woman who has 5 kids, 3 in college. Both her and her husband work, they are squarely middle class, her kids get good grades and she gets nothing but loan offers.

That could be part of it I guess, but cost of living in the Carolina's is much less then it is in the Twin Cities-just based on housing prices. I don't know that salaries there are any higher on average. I can see in places like New York or NY being that way though but not all of the east coast.

I don't know what to tell you. Last year when they had one of their "college planning' meetings with the seniors DS18 brought home the list of scholarships available from around the area that they award. There were over 300 on that list alone. It was 3 pages, 8 pt font from an excel spreadsheet double sided with about 50 scholarships on each page Our kids' old school has the same thing, the high school I attended has the same, DH's high school has the same. I am not aware of ANY high school here that doesn't have this. Do your schools really not have access to stuff like this? There is also the list of ones just from our town or immediate area.

These are things like $500 from the VFW, $1000 from a local business, $750 from a family. There are several VERY large ones $20K or more too from various family trusts, etc. I just looked up the list on our high school website from last spring and there are scholarships from various elementary schools in the district's PTO, local banks, several local businesses, a couple memorial scholarships from families that had kids die while they were in school, etc.

Then add some of the larger ones that come out from the McKnight foundation, and other similar, we had an Evans Scholar which pays 100% of a students schooling costs (most campuses even have their own Evans house for the kids to live in).

Again, these smaller awards add up.

 

[golfgal]

I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and got a 30 on my ACT, and only got about $1500 in misc scholarships my first year at Iowa - not exactly the "bulk" when I had a $15k tuition/boarding bill. I only know a few kids in my class that had most of their school covered.

State schools just don't have the money to hand out but is that ALL you really got? Did you apply for more. At the school I attended that would have gotten you $17,000 just for walking in the door. DS18 had a lousy GPA in high school but scored a 28 on his ACT and got $2600 from his school just for that alone (minimum requirement was a 26 on the ACT for that one). He also got another $750 alumni scholarship. Nothing huge but that knocked off over $3000 of his bill of $17K.

http://www.uiowa.edu/admissions/undergrad/scholarships/first-year.htm

From the University of Iowa website--they grant over 370 scholarships with your GPA and ACT alone. What other scholarships did you apply for?

 

[Green Tea]

My DS is a junior, number 2 in his large class, 4.0 unweighted, sophmore SAT 2070. We are going crazy looking for merit aid that would help our ridiculous EFC. The problem is that most schools within a reasonable distance do not offer enough merit aid, just need based. The majority of better schools also require CSS Profile, not just FAFSA so that totally kills us.

He wanted to go to Bucknell, very little merit aid. Other considerations are Susquehanna and Lafayette that offer some. But nowhere can we find full ride for merit, which would keep our retirement intact. I also don't consider loans to be meeting your needs when you already have a high EFC.

Anyone have any suggestions for the NJ, NY, PA, DE, MD, VA? Ideally would be 3 hours, for really good 6 hours, and if it's Harvard, he's going! And he doesn't want to go to Minnesota even though the merit aid is good.

I mentioned earlier the full merit scholarships at Washington & Lee University and The University of Richmond. Washington and Lee offers substantially more than U of R.....about 45 kids a year enter on full merit offers, including Room & Board and summer study awards.

Have your child's SATs gone up since the 2070 sophomore year though? Is it a full AP, Honors, IB curriculum?

 

[bethbuchall]

That could be part of it I guess, but cost of living in the Carolina's is much less then it is in the Twin Cities-just based on housing prices. I don't know that salaries there are any higher on average. I can see in places like New York or NY being that way though but not all of the east coast.

I don't know what to tell you. Last year when they had one of their "college planning' meetings with the seniors DS18 brought home the list of scholarships available from around the area that they award. There were over 300 on that list alone. It was 3 pages, 8 pt font from an excel spreadsheet double sided with about 50 scholarships on each page Our kids' old school has the same thing, the high school I attended has the same, DH's high school has the same. I am not aware of ANY high school here that doesn't have this. Do your schools really not have access to stuff like this? There is also the list of ones just from our town or immediate area.

These are things like $500 from the VFW, $1000 from a local business, $750 from a family. There are several VERY large ones $20K or more too from various family trusts, etc. I just looked up the list on our high school website from last spring and there are scholarships from various elementary schools in the district's PTO, local banks, several local businesses, a couple memorial scholarships from families that had kids die while they were in school, etc.

Then add some of the larger ones that come out from the McKnight foundation, and other similar, we had an Evans Scholar which pays 100% of a students schooling costs (most campuses even have their own Evans house for the kids to live in).

Again, these smaller awards add up.

Our high school has a list of private scholarships similar to what you describe for the smaller scholarships. The problem is that approximately 90% include the stipulation that the student show financial need. Of the remainder, many have other requirements (Italian heritage, member of specific athletic team, member of the church, etc) that make them unavailable to everyone. On top of that, there are a small number of each. Everyone who applies and qualifies doesn't win the scholarship. The smaller scholarships do add up, but they are also only a one-time deal. So, even if a senior could qualify for and win several thousand dollars (unlikely), it would only help that first year of college.

The Evans Scholar you mention is available only to golf caddies. That certainly isn't a majority of the students with a 3.5 gpa in your area, is it? I think maybe you are not really seeing the big picture for all midwesterners.

 

[golfgal]

My DS is a junior, number 2 in his large class, 4.0 unweighted, sophmore SAT 2070. We are going crazy looking for merit aid that would help our ridiculous EFC. The problem is that most schools within a reasonable distance do not offer enough merit aid, just need based. The majority of better schools also require CSS Profile, not just FAFSA so that totally kills us.

He wanted to go to Bucknell, very little merit aid. Other considerations are Susquehanna and Lafayette that offer some. But nowhere can we find full ride for merit, which would keep our retirement intact. I also don't consider loans to be meeting your needs when you already have a high EFC.

Anyone have any suggestions for the NJ, NY, PA, DE, MD, VA? Ideally would be 3 hours, for really good 6 hours, and if it's Harvard, he's going! And he doesn't want to go to Minnesota even though the merit aid is good.

I have never heard of Bucknell so I looked it up:
http://www.bucknell.edu/x44239.xml

The site here says about 50% of their students receive aid

Compared to Carleton-similar cost, higher quality in MN:

http://apps.carleton.edu/admissions/topics/afford/

Big difference is they meet 100% of need AND have a huge endowment so their average grant from the COLLEGE-not state or federal is over $23,000. If you read the testimonials on this page, kids are saying the same thing everyone here is saying, in this area you get aid, elsewhere you don't.

Another similar cost/quality school: http://www.macalester.edu/admissions/financialaid/ again meeting 100% of aid-average aid package over $33K.

 

[Green Tea]

Our high school has a list of private scholarships similar to what you describe for the smaller scholarships. The problem is that approximately 90% include the stipulation that the student show financial need. Of the remainder, many have other requirements (Italian heritage, member of specific athletic team, member of the church, etc) that make them unavailable to everyone. On top of that, there are a small number of each. Everyone who applies and qualifies doesn't win the scholarship. The smaller scholarships do add up, but they are also only a one-time deal. So, even if a senior could qualify for and win several thousand dollars (unlikely), it would only help that first year of college.

The Evans Scholar you mention is available only to golf caddies. That certainly isn't a majority of the students with a 3.5 gpa in your area, is it? I think maybe you are not really seeing the big picture for all midwesterners.

The crazy thing with the random local scholarships....kids don't apply for them! If an otherwise qualified applicant follows through with the essay they require, and no needy student does, they will likely award it to the kid who applied.

 

[Green Tea]

I have never heard of Bucknell so I looked it up:
http://www.bucknell.edu/x44239.xml

The site here says about 50% of their students receive aid

Compared to Carleton-similar cost, higher quality in MN:

If you've never heard of Bucknell, how can you say it isn't as high quality as Carlton? You don't know.

 

[golfgal]

Our high school has a list of private scholarships similar to what you describe for the smaller scholarships. The problem is that approximately 90% include the stipulation that the student show financial need. Of the remainder, many have other requirements (Italian heritage, member of specific athletic team, member of the church, etc) that make them unavailable to everyone. On top of that, there are a small number of each. Everyone who applies and qualifies doesn't win the scholarship. The smaller scholarships do add up, but they are also only a one-time deal. So, even if a senior could qualify for and win several thousand dollars (unlikely), it would only help that first year of college.

The Evans Scholar you mention is available only to golf caddies. That certainly isn't a majority of the students with a 3.5 gpa in your area, is it? I think maybe you are not really seeing the big picture for all midwesterners.

I realize that some of them are limited to certain people/groups but kids ARE getting them. The point is that the bulk of the kids here with a 3.5 or better ARE getting enough scholarships, etc. locally, at the state level, from their schools and at the national level to pay for the a bulk of their schooling. Heck, even Kohl's department store awarded 4 kids in our district scholarships of varying amounts-$2500-10,000. Yes, it takes some work but it DOES happen.

Just curious for those that say they only get $1000 or so, how many did you apply to?

 

[golfgal]

If you've never heard of Bucknell, how can you say it isn't as high quality as Carlton? You don't know.

I can read--average application standards on their website.

 

[bethbuchall]

I have never heard of Bucknell so I looked it up:
http://www.bucknell.edu/x44239.xml

The site here says about 50% of their students receive aid

Compared to Carleton-similar cost, higher quality in MN:

http://apps.carleton.edu/admissions/topics/afford/

Big difference is they meet 100% of need AND have a huge endowment so their average grant from the COLLEGE-not state or federal is over $23,000. If you read the testimonials on this page, kids are saying the same thing everyone here is saying, in this area you get aid, elsewhere you don't.

Another similar cost/quality school: http://www.macalester.edu/admissions/financialaid/ again meeting 100% of aid-average aid package over $33K.

From the link: "Around 50% of Carleton students qualify for some form of financial aid. 65% of financial aid awards are in the form of need-based grants and scholarships, which do not need to be repaid. The average Carleton grant: $25,831, though the size of the grant will vary from one student to another based on the family's financial profile. Actually, the full cost of attendance for the 2010-2011 school year is $52,000. We operate with a need-based financial aid system, which means that we award aid based on a family's financial profile, not on a student's past achievements in academics, athletics or any other arena." They are talking need-based aid. If 50% of Carleton students qualify for (and receive aid), then that is the same as 50% of Bucknell students receiving aid.

 

[golfgal]

The crazy thing with the random local scholarships....kids don't apply for them! If an otherwise qualified applicant follows through with the essay they require, and no needy student does, they will likely award it to the kid who applied.

Also, the "need" as defined by the scholarships sponsor isn't always (and mostly isn't) the same as what the FAFSA says either. Often they are looking just at a general "salary" requirement and often that is MUCH higher then what you would think.

 

[golfgal]

From the link: "Around 50% of Carleton students qualify for some form of financial aid. 65% of financial aid awards are in the form of need-based grants and scholarships, which do not need to be repaid. The average Carleton grant: $25,831, though the size of the grant will vary from one student to another based on the family's financial profile. Actually, the full cost of attendance for the 2010-2011 school year is $52,000. We operate with a need-based financial aid system, which means that we award aid based on a family's financial profile, not on a student's past achievements in academics, athletics or any other arena." They are talking need-based aid. If 50% of Carleton students qualify for (and receive aid), then that is the same as 50% of Bucknell students receiving aid.

NO, it isn't. 50% of Bucknell's students receive aid but they don't guarantee to meet 100% of their costs. Bucknell could give 50% of their students $1000 and say they give aid to 50% of their students. It's not quite the same thing. Also, at $52K, a family has to have a pretty sizable adjusted gross income to NOT qualify for aid. Most of the kids that don't get aid come from extremely wealthy families, not just your typical middle to upper middle class family.

Honestly though, for most people that can get into Carleton, they can probably also get into an Ivy and THAT will cost them less but a LOT-unless they have an adjusted gross over $180K-they will pay $18,000/year or less.

 

[kbeverina]

This is our experience on the east coast too. I know pretty much NO ONE that gets most of the college paid through private scholarships. At the most, I've seen people get $1,000. I think income levels are very high on the east coast, due to cost of living. Unfortanately private and government aid do not factor this in.

I work with a woman who has 5 kids, 3 in college. Both her and her husband work, they are squarely middle class, her kids get good grades and she gets nothing but loan offers.

Yeah, I think that may be a big factor. Our efc is $87,000/year and I think we're a pretty average income here. There are top students who can shop themselves around for great packages. But the average kid is not getting the merit aid that makes the privates cost-competitive. Otherwise, it would not be merit aid. It never occurred to me to consider loan offers in a package as bringing down the cost-of-attendance, but that might be part of the equation for some.

It's really quite possible when people are talking about getting full-rides and near full-rides elsewhere, there's a lot of need-based aid packaged in there. No one is going to make that distinction when talking about their kid's offers and it's no one's business anyway. But people should be careful about making sweeping generalizations about the costs of privates vs. publics when they don't really know all the details about these packages.