8/17/08 Captain Jack's Repossession Repo Cruise to PC thru TPC Part 15

[tigger137]

Usually on ships, a "berth" is not equivalent to a "cabin" or room. It used to be a reference to a bed on a ship - a cabin might have 3 or 4 "berths". From reading a lot of very confusing text on that website, I think that the Panama Canal Authority is charging passenger ships the $100 per person for their "rated capacity" - I think that is 2,400 for the Magic. If that is the case, this new tariff will increase the cost of the Magic going through the canal by $240,000!!!!

This probably won't stop panama canal cruises for repositioning, but you wonder if the ones that just go 1/2 way and back (costs the same as a 1-way all the way through passage) are going to slowly disappear.

As I've posted before, I don't think DCL has invented this tariff and I don't totally blame them for passing it on - I do blame them for springing it on us. This has been in the works for a while and they should have warned us that there could possibly be a LARGE increase in fees. Since they didn't warn us, I think some sort of good will gesture would help provide some sugar for this bitter medicine!

pdarrah

Just hopping over from the Westbound thread to say that the Panama Canal website seems pretty clear on this being a new method of calculating the tolls, not a completely new tax.

Until 30 Sept 2007 the tolls for a ship such as the Disney Magic will be calculated by tonnage.
From 1 Oct 2007 the tolls will be calculated per berth, at $100 per berth.

The new method is instead of the old, not as well as.

So DCL should only be charging the difference between the two which, from my rough calculations, should be nowhere near $100 per person.

What in fact they are doing is making us pay the same tax twice.

 

[captaincrash]

Aye, aye... Sir.

Arrrgh!

"SIR" AGAIN?​

 

[dahuffy]

OMG, it's attack of the Frog people!

 

[GoofyontheHiSeas]

ATTENTION ATTENTION


We have been upgraded for FREE ....I repeat we have been Upgraded for FREE..

I was surfing the net this Morning and went to DCL to look at my Resi and OMG there it was , our stateroom had changed to 8074 ... I was like Okay , what happened ????.. So I called DCL and we have been confirmed on an Upgrade from a Cat 6 to a Cat 4 on the Med Repo ....

I know for some this is not a big deal but I thought it was wonderful ...

I guess they knew Ole Captain Jack needed a little extra room ...

So I repeat we are now in room 8074 no longer are we in 6104 ...now I have to change my Magnets ....

Way to go Captain.

Maybe they are planning on enlisting your services during the voyage as the real CJS, not one of their questionalble stand-ins. Anyway enjoy the extra room.

 

[captaincrash]

Just hopping over from the Westbound thread to say that the Panama Canal website seems pretty clear on this being a new method of calculating the tolls, not a completely new tax.

Until 30 Sept 2007 the tolls for a ship such as the Disney Magic will be calculated by tonnage.
From 1 Oct 2007 the tolls will be calculated per berth, at $100 per berth.

The new method is instead of the old, not as well as.

So DCL should only be charging the difference between the two which, from my rough calculations, should be nowhere near $100 per person.

What in fact they are doing is making us pay the same tax twice.

If this IS a toll in substitution of the prior PC toll - then DISNEY IS ripping us off collectively for $175,000. This has me simmering some now....

I just booked a cruise on a line where the expectations are not so high - Costa - but the cost was 40% of what Disney was charging for the same date in 2007 for a week in the same window cabin type on the Magic. SO - between this bargain rate and Disney there ARE a lot of decent cruise lines to choose from. I hope they respect that reality. I know the Magic will have a well resolved Disney theme and entertainment - but the Costa window cabin will be 10' LARGER, sail to several new (to us) ports and cost only $1445 versus $4100 on the Magic. Even after adjustment for the $350 Costco Cash card we could get for the Disney booking - at $3750 net for Disney - Costa is only 38% of the Disney cost. I could sail Costa in a veranda TWICE for the cost of Disney in a window cabin ONCE. For that kind of savings I could overlook all kinds of deficiencies comparatively. I've been reading lots of reviews and threads on the Costa - and it looks like it is a decent cruise when in the Carribean - but not spectacular. Even so - ANY CRUISE is better then no cruise at all with Costas' expected level of performance.

I am NOW going to call Disney - right this moment.

 

[captaincrash]

Congrats you lucky Dog! Maybe some of that will rub off on the TOAL next year!!!! Are you listening DCL?

We'd have to have unsold berths for them to do any of this (obviously). Alas, I'm beginning to wonder about the $100 tax again. I know, I know - it smacks of fermenting dissent on our voyage to say so - but as was posted recently - IF our $100pp accessment is in SUBSTITUTION of the PC toll methodology - then I am really gonna be annoyed. This WOULD BE improper - in my opinion since we've already paid deposits to secure the rate structure we had.

I say IF the tolls are being substituted by this per person toll - then go ahead and chage me $100 per person - just remember to REDUCE my original port charge accordingly too!!! That may in fact resule in an increase in the amount we pay - but not nearly by so much I say! Arrgh!

 

[dahuffy]

Let us know if you find out anything Tom. I'm off to the bank,need some funds for our trip to San Antonio next week.

 

[captaincrash]

OK...

I just got off the line with DCL... I spoke to Alan - a supervisor in the reservations area and he said (paraphrasing) .... ' if the Panama Canal Transit Authority is imposing the per berth charge of $100 per person in SUBSTITUTION of the tonnage toll - then a REFUND on the already calculated PORT CHARGES and TAXES would be forthcoming to reflect this...'. They had no positive word to this effect yet. And further conversation with him extracted agreement / understanding that folks who have paid for thier voyages in full have a "finalized" agreement to sail. And that if Disney encounters greater expense as a result of these changes then the additional expense is absorbed by Disney. I do assume any REFUND would flow back to the patron - but we did not discuss that possibility.

It makes sense to me that this $100 per person fee is a gradual increase on the charges - and not a gouging of transit passenger traffic. However, who is to say what is really going on.

I for one would hope this is in substitution of the tonnage toll they charge. I expect to pay MORE for the port charges overall - but if this is so - then the increase will be a little less.

From earlier postings about 4 months back and 45,000 postings prior - we discussed how the toll was something like $130 or $150,000 for a passenger ship. This $100 (and next October $115) PAX toll wold represent a modest increase, indeed. AND if it were in addition - it would represent a huge gouging of passenger ship traffic - IE charge tonnage as well as per berth charges to this effect.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I have 10 minutes to run a daughter to her 12 noon gymnastics class now.... TTFN!

 

[Sarangel]

' if the Panama Canal Transit Authority is imposing the per berth charge of $100 per person in SUBSTITUTION of the tonnage toll - then a REFUND on the already calculated PORT CHARGES and TAXES would be forthcoming to reflect this...'. They had no positive word to this effect yet.

Anyone with some experience speaking legalese willing to try and decipher whether or not the new tax is in addition to the old one or in place of the old one? I know I'd be very interested in knowing this.

 

[kap158]

It might be cheaper for you to make your own shirts from Disney? I still plan on wearing my dis-green shirt along with the black & white. I don't want the captain makin me walk the plank.




Thanks it was and I will pass it on. It was kinda bittersweet though. Yesterday would have been Chuck's parents 51st anniversary. It will be one year next month that she passed away.





Your odds are better then mine.



I know I shoudn't be picky but I was hoping the new ships would be on the west coast.


Karen: Forgot to mention something.................You can sign up for a free account at photobucket. I have found it VERY easy to use. Once you create an account you can easily download any photos from you computer then copy and paste a link to your post. Make any sense? Hope that helps.

Thanks Tina, that will be my project for this weekend. I am computer challenged. Is that Dante that Chuck is holding? I hope you had a great time.


Karen

 

[tom31b]

FYI...

In researching the additional fee I found on the Panama Canal website - http://www.pancanal.com/eng/maritime/tolls.html - the additional toll charge is based on a “per berth” not “per passenger”. The fee is $100 additional for 2007 and $115 for 2008. I have no problem spending $115 per berth for 2008, but $100 per person fee needs to be explained by DCL.


~SD

Nautically speaking, berth is equal to bed therefore per person.

 

[kap158]

Time for a song, sing it with me.
All the leaves are brown
All the leaves are brown
And the sky is grey
And the sky is grey
Ive been for a walk
Ive been for a walk
On a winters day
On a winters day
Id be safe and warm
Id be safe and warm
If I was in l.a.
If I was in l.a.
California dreamin
California dreamin
On such a winters day

Stopped into a church
I passed along the way
Well, I got down on my knees
Got down on my knees
And I pretend to pray
I pretend to pray
You know the preacher likes the cold
Preacher likes the cold
He knows Im gonna stay
Knows Im gonna stay
California dreamin
California dreamin
On such a winters day

All the leaves are brown
All the leaves are brown
And the sky is grey
And the sky is grey
Ive been for a walk
Ive been for a walk
On a winters day
On a winters day
If I didnt tell her
If I didnt tell her
I could leave today
I could leave today
California dreamin
California dreamin
On such a winters day
California dreaming
On such a winters day
California dreaming
On such a winters day

I do remember that song! I still have the record(yes record! Does that date me?) of the Mama's and the Papa's!
and I still have a turntable!!!



Karen

 

[tom31b]

Oh my...

... lets' dispense with the "sirs" and use of "forgive my ignorance". And lets substitute "Crash" and "Shiver me timbers" ... or something similar.

Yes Sir! Pardon the common terminology employed by us common wenches and swabbies, Sir! Your order shall be obeyed Sir!

 

[pdarrah]

I just got off the line with DCL... I spoke to Alan - a supervisor in the reservations area and he said (paraphrasing) .... ' if the Panama Canal Transit Authority is imposing the per berth charge of $100 per person in SUBSTITUTION of the tonnage toll - then a REFUND on the already calculated PORT CHARGES and TAXES would be forthcoming to reflect this...'. They had no positive word to this effect yet.

Anyone with some experience speaking legalese willing to try and decipher whether or not the new tax is in addition to the old one or in place of the old one? I know I'd be very interested in knowing this.

I don't speak legalese, but I have been poking around the Panama canal authority website some more and found this in a press release in fairly straightforward english!

"Passenger Vessels: Regarding passenger vessels, an assessment of tolls will be based on maximum passenger capacity. In general, under this change, large vessels will be charged tolls on a per berth basis, and smaller ships will continue under the Canal tonnage tolls system. "

If this turns out to be the case, then hopefully the supervisor CaptainCrash spoke with is correct and a "refund" that will adjust our totals downward again will be coming....

I don't think I want to just trust that this will happen and I think DH or I will be making regular calls to DCL to ask about this!

Pamela (pdarrah)

 

[tom31b]

Anyone with some experience speaking legalese willing to try and decipher whether or not the new tax is in addition to the old one or in place of the old one? I know I'd be very interested in knowing this.

Did someone ask for a lawyer??

You would need to know what they budgeted for the trip when they created the rate structure to figure that out. Only DCL could answer that.

 

[GoofyontheHiSeas]

OK...

I just got off the line with DCL... I spoke to Alan - a supervisor in the reservations area and he said (paraphrasing) .... ' if the Panama Canal Transit Authority is imposing the per berth charge of $100 per person in SUBSTITUTION of the tonnage toll - then a REFUND on the already calculated PORT CHARGES and TAXES would be forthcoming to reflect this...'. They had no positive word to this effect yet. And further conversation with him extracted agreement / understanding that folks who have paid for their voyages in full have a "finalized" agreement to sail. And that if Disney encounters greater expense as a result of these changes then the additional expense is absorbed by Disney. I do assume any REFUND would flow back to the patron - but we did not discuss that possibility.

It makes sense to me that this $100 per person fee is a gradual increase on the charges - and not a gouging of transit passenger traffic. However, who is to say what is really going on.

I for one would hope this is in substitution of the tonnage toll they charge. I expect to pay MORE for the port charges overall - but if this is so - then the increase will be a little less.

From earlier postings about 4 months back and 45,000 postings prior - we discussed how the toll was something like $130 or $150,000 for a passenger ship. This $100 (and next October $115) PAX toll wold represent a modest increase, indeed. AND if it were in addition - it would represent a huge gouging of passenger ship traffic - IE charge tonnage as well as per berth charges to this effect.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I have 10 minutes to run a daughter to her 12 noon gymnastics class now.... TTFN!

Tom of course this is an increase not a new tax. Looking over the Panama Canal Toll Assessment Website it explains that since the Panamanian take over of the canal they have been restructuring their pricing, customizing it to the types of ships that pass through the canal. This move starting in 10/07 is a shift from cruise ships paying by tonnage to per berth charge. Disney was not going through the canal for free when calculating the cost of our cruise. I think that they are trying to tack this on to our bill since the chart from the Panama website shows that cruise ship charge/berth for previous crossings was N/A. That is because it was not based on berths but on tonnage. It is interesting that I did not find anyone complaining on the CruiseCritic site regarding this topic. Also I spotted an article from 2002-2003 regarding PC upping its taxes (when they originally started this pricing structure) that the cruise lines (not the passengers) were outraged because they would have to pay more. I hope that DCL corrects this and refunds part of this $100 surcharge.

 

[tom31b]

I don't speak legalese, but I have been poking around the Panama canal authority website some more and found this in a press release in fairly straightforward english!

"Passenger Vessels: Regarding passenger vessels, an assessment of tolls will be based on maximum passenger capacity. In general, under this change, large vessels will be charged tolls on a per berth basis, and smaller ships will continue under the Canal tonnage tolls system. "

If this turns out to be the case, then hopefully the supervisor CaptainCrash spoke with is correct and a "refund" that will adjust our totals downward again will be coming....

I don't think I want to just trust that this will happen and I think DH or I will be making regular calls to DCL to ask about this!

Pamela (pdarrah)

The quote I was looking at had more:

In the case of passenger vessels, the ACP will assess tolls based on the maximum passenger capacity in accordance with the International Tonnage Certificate 69, or the vessel’s passenger ship safety certificate; vessels over 30,000 gross tons and whose PC/UMS ÷ maximum passenger capacity ratio is equal to or less than 33 will be charged on a per berth basis according to the following table.

PC/UMS is the Panama Canal tonnage which is some mathematical formula based on the volume of the ship. If its close to gross tonnage (also based on volume), it would be 83,000 (Magic GT) divided by 2,400 (max passenger) for a ratio of 34.5, which then puts it in the tonnage charge. But, if the PC tonnage is vastly different or the passenger total includes crew, etc., who knows....

 

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

Thanks for the tip, Tom.

For those who did not know (can't remember if I posted it or just through PMs --old age setting in this morning), Europe is the reason we canceled the cruise. SWMBO came back from Paris talking about how much she wanted to take the kids over and we had a family meeting and the kids were much more interested in England and France then cruising again. So we are off plotting a tour of the UK, followed by a day in Paris, and of course, a stop to see our Pal Mickey at DL Paris.

Aww..
Well I can certainly understand that. Although we'll still miss ya!
Since our kids are getting older (not sure of your children's ages though) we plan on doing other type vacations (for sure Jamaica with the kids this time, and other places- like Europe/etc.) that the kids might enjoy more when older. For this TOAL though, they are still too young to even come CLOSE to choosing England/France over a Disney cruise. Well especially the younger two...

Do you live in a town with building codes and permits and such? If so, you may be able to get them to do something about it. If the fence and new grading was done with a permit and the town failed to catch the problem, they may be required to help fix it. If it was done without a permit and SHOULD have had one, then the town can force them to either remove it all (at their expense) or to fix your problems. You are absolutely right that there are laws most places that you cannot change the lay of the land and send water onto someone else's property.

Good luck with everything!

Pamela (pdarrah)

I checked right when it was done and the only stipulations they have here is about the fence and it was higher than 6' from the ground to the top because of the gap of about 12 inches underneath it. But he came out to check and said it was no big deal since it was a "whole lot" over 6'. Whatever.
As for the rest- since it was her backyard I don't think we have to have any permits (although I'm not sure- still checking on that especially since she also added concrete and tile/etc. to about half her backyard- extending her patio the full length of the house and around the pool/etc. to have more "decking" area around the pool and back of the house- and yes again that changes how much ground she has to soak up rain) -but I do know it's illegal what she did with raising the fence to leave a gap then filling it with just loose dirt and putting flat rocks across the top. It all runs onto our yard now. Previous to the fence thing she'd complained about the flooding in her yard on the half that didn't have the pool there. I've looked when it's rained hard and my yard is a complete river but her yard isn't flooding anymore (I looked over the fence- stood on a picnic table in our yard LOL) I've also taken pictures and videos of not only the original fence but the new one with the gap AND of when it was raining showing the rain just POURING thru the dirt into our yard thru that gap under the fence. It even made little 'eroded' areas of dirt extending into our yard about a foot or more- hard to explain but I got videos and pictures of it. It shouldn't be hard to prove what she's done is now causing her runoff to run into our yard. What we had was a fence that went into the ground (they had trouble pulling it out of the ground) and our land was even. She replaced it with a fence with a huge gap underneath, raised her ground to meet it with loose dirt and flat rocks on top across the length of that gap. (which has already settled down a bit since it's all running into our yard- rain water AND dirt).
She totally went from nice neighbor to don't give a you-know-what-about-anyone-else neighbor after the fence was put up. ugh the extra rain water is causing us a lot of problems with flooding in our yard, pool, and back patio.

ATTENTION ATTENTION


We have been upgraded for FREE ....I repeat we have been Upgraded for FREE..

I was surfing the net this Morning and went to DCL to look at my Resi and OMG there it was , our stateroom had changed to 8074 ... I was like Okay , what happened ????.. So I called DCL and we have been confirmed on an Upgrade from a Cat 6 to a Cat 4 on the Med Repo ....

I know for some this is not a big deal but I thought it was wonderful ...

I guess they knew Ole Captain Jack needed a little extra room ...

So I repeat we are now in room 8074 no longer are we in 6104 ...now I have to change my Magnets ....

congratulations! That's awesome!

Just hopping over from the Westbound thread to say that the Panama Canal website seems pretty clear on this being a new method of calculating the tolls, not a completely new tax.

Until 30 Sept 2007 the tolls for a ship such as the Disney Magic will be calculated by tonnage.
From 1 Oct 2007 the tolls will be calculated per berth, at $100 per berth.

The new method is instead of the old, not as well as.

So DCL should only be charging the difference between the two which, from my rough calculations, should be nowhere near $100 per person.

What in fact they are doing is making us pay the same tax twice.

If indeed this isn't an additional tax but a different way of "figuring" the tax (ie: instead of the old way) then the additional cost should not be the entire $100 per person... they should just charge the difference. I wonder if by charging the entire amount for those that haven't paid in full they are trying to make up for any losses for NOT charging those that are paid in full already? (which would totally be unfair)

Honestly I don't get why govt fees/taxes can't be changed, if they are changed for DCL after the fact, for those that have even fully paid. It's not like they are changing their rate for the cruise. I'm not sure how that works though (like if you buy a flight ticket and the govt fees/taxes change- can they charge you the difference when it changes even if you've already paid in full or if they have to eat the extra cost themselves).

 

[Sarangel]

Did someone ask for a lawyer??

You would need to know what they budgeted for the trip when they created the rate structure to figure that out. Only DCL could answer that.

What we need is a maritime lawyer... Talk about your specialists.

Oh well, I suppose there's nothing to do but wait it out and see what DCL does and what our internet researchers come up with.

 

[GoofyontheHiSeas]

PC/UMS is the Panama Canal tonnage which is some mathematical formula based on the volume of the ship. If its close to gross tonnage (also based on volume), it would be 83,000 (Magic GT) divided by 2,400 (max passenger) for a ratio of 34.5, which then puts it in the tonnage charge. But, if the PC tonnage is vastly different or the passenger total includes crew, etc., who knows....

Did you ask for a formula

The formula for determining the PC/UMS Net Tonnage of all vessels, except those
subject to transitional relief measures, is:
PC/UMS Net Tonnage = K4(V) + K5(V) + CF1(VMC)

All we have to do is figure out what the variables mean.

where V = total volume in m3 and K = a figure from 0.22 up to 0.32, depending on the ship’s size (calculated by . GT is consequently a measure of the overall size of the ship.

[The Panama Canal/Universal Measurement System (PC/UMS) is based on net tonnage, modified for Panama Canal purposes. PC/UMS is based on a mathematical formula to calculate a vessel's total volume; a PC/UMS net ton is equivalent to 100 cubic feet of capacity.[3]