6th grader gets 0 for plagiarism rant long

[yasmina]

I had a similar situation recently. Our grading term ended, and I gave my students an opportunity to earn bonus points. On the instruction sheet, I specifically told kids not to cut and paste from the Internet. When I went over the instructions in class, I specifically pointed this out, and told them that I can easily find out if they do.

Well, one boy turned his in, using language that very few 7th graders would be able to produce. So I turned to trusty Google. Sure enough, over 80% of what he turned in had been copied word for word. I printed the article and highlighted the parts copied.

But I did give him partial credit - 3 points out of a possible 10. He tried to argue with me that the only parts he copied were the dates. I told him to compare his project with what I highlighted. Never heard another word.

Had this been an actual assignment, rather than extra credit, he would have either had to re-do it, or received a zero.

 

[shortbun]

Exactly.


I think the discussion about citation rules is a red herring. A first grader knows that you don't copy someone else's work. This is exactly the same thing. He copied someone else's work.

They know not to copy the work of a classsmate. Do they consider Wikapedia or Google a person's work? I doubt it. Your expectations are too high. 6th graders are just learning about bibliography all over the country right now. It was an honest mistake and the teacher should have just sent him back or shown him how to do it correctly. Education should be about tolerance and teaching, not punishment, especially in grade school and early middle.

 

[yeartolate]

I had a similar situation recently. Our grading term ended, and I gave my students an opportunity to earn bonus points. On the instruction sheet, I specifically told kids not to cut and paste from the Internet. When I went over the instructions in class, I specifically pointed this out, and told them that I can easily find out if they do.

Well, one boy turned his in, using language that very few 7th graders would be able to produce. So I turned to trusty Google. Sure enough, over 80% of what he turned in had been copied word for word. I printed the article and highlighted the parts copied.

But I did give him partial credit - 3 points out of a possible 10. He tried to argue with me that the only parts he copied were the dates. I told him to compare his project with what I highlighted. Never heard another word.

Had this been an actual assignment, rather than extra credit, he would have either had to re-do it, or received a zero.

Frankly, in that case (which seems different from OP) I would have have given the kid a big zero. Clear plagarism, and he was instructed otherwise. Plagerism isn't any better when it is extra cresit.

 

[N.Bailey]

Your dictionary definition of plagiarism is too simplistic. I think it's common sense that you can't print out a page from the internet, put it in a report and hand it in. This is taught in our elementary school as early as first or second grade, when they have to do an animal report.

You simply cannot cite, footnote or quote entire paragraphs of someone else's writing. You cannot copy whole paragraphs and then use a bibliography to make it ok.

Actually, I do not argue that what he did was right. No one on this entire thread has done that. But to cite plagiarism when this clearly does not even begin to fall into that realm is ridiculous aside from the technicality that the child didn't know how to cite it properly (which was the crux of the teacher's point of view).

If you want to say he cheated, I can concur with that, thus the reason I believe points should have been deducted. To immediately hand down a zero though is absurd. Especially when this child is a high honors student. Especially when he was told not to get help from mom and dad and especially since the he did turn his own work in and the teacher didn't like it. While, what he did was wrong, he still did the vast majority of the project HIMSELF (unlike the other child whose mommy is a teacher - again, this was cheating, too, but a more sanctioned form of cheating?) and a zero is ridiculous, especially when the reason cited for that zero can't be backed up as having been taught.

And you all seem to think it's okay when the teachers commit plagiarism. The principal has already acknowledged that they do so. So, is this a do as I say, not as I do kind of rule? Where is THEIR accountability? If it's zero tolerance, well it should be ZERO tolerance for all, not just who they want to use for example purposes.

 

[N.Bailey]

You explained that much better than I did. When people say kids shouldn't be punished because they didn't know how to do citations, I agree but that means they might not know the mechanics of parenthetical citations or appropriate times to cite sources. It's not carte blanche to copy and paste what they find.

Because of how easy it is now to cheat on papers using the internet (and there are several websites specifically for this purpose), schools are starting to go way beyond the zero tolerance policy given here. Kids can fail classes or even be kicked out of college. Schools are also using services like turnitin.com to evaluate students papers to see how much of it is copied and from what website.

Not a single poster on this entire thread has said he shouldn't have been punished. The punishment however was much too harsh for most of the posters who have responded.

 

[N.Bailey]

Good thing the DisBoards dont give points or banishment for Plagerism!!!!

just sayin!

However, OP I'd fight this. Sounds like the teacher is being more like Judge & Jury too me.

Wow, I nominate this as post of the entire thread!!

 

[yasmina]

Frankly, in that case (which seems different from OP) I would have have given the kid a big zero. Clear plagarism, and he was instructed otherwise. Plagerism isn't any better when it is extra cresit.

I appreciate your sentiment, but there were some parts of the project that weren't plagiarized.

So I gave the least # of points I was comfortable with.

 

[yasmina]

And you all seem to think it's okay when the teachers commit plagiarism. The principal has already acknowledged that they do so. So, is this a do as I say, not as I do kind of rule? Where is THEIR accountability?

OP:

When I pointed out that many teachers' syllabuses, tests, and lecture material contain non-cited materials he informed me that two wrongs don't make a right.

Uh, sorry, are you a teacher? The information we teach is: a compilation of material that we've learned and studied, along with the material from the textbook. That comment from the principal is just plain wrong and unprofessional. As a teacher, we are required to teach from the curricula approved by the school board of directors. To do otherwise is grounds for reprimand and dismissal.

Are you saying that every word we utter or write needs to be cited? Let's get real here. Are you in a profession where you rely on anything you learned in school? Math, reading, language arts? Are you going to cite the books from which you learned those skills?

Ridiculous? You bet! No more ridiculous than your assertions that teachers have to cite everything they give the students! The curricular material taught to the students must be based on the material from the textbook. Anything supplemental should be cited, per copyright laws. If it's not, then blame insufficient funding for the schools for basic materials. There are many supplemental materials,directly related to the topic I'm teaching that I use that our district doesn't have the funding to purchase for every student, every year. So yes, I photocopy. Take me to court! Along with 99% of all other K-12 teachers in this country!

 

[N.Bailey]

OP:



Uh, sorry, are you a teacher? The information we teach is: a compilation of material that we've learned and studied, along with the material from the textbook. That comment from the principal is just plain wrong and unprofessional. As a teacher, we are required to teach from the curricula approved by the school board of directors. To do otherwise is grounds for reprimand and dismissal.

Are you saying that every word we utter or write needs to be cited? Let's get real here. Are you in a profession where you rely on anything you learned in school? Math, reading, language arts? Are you going to cite the books from which you learned those skills?

Ridiculous? You bet! No more ridiculous than your assertions that teachers have to cite everything they give the students!

Actually, I don't care what teachers do or don't do. In our district, I have been 100% supportive of everything they have done. It would be a RARE exception that I'd take my child's side over a teacher's as well. I absolutely respect all that they do every day of the week.

It's THIS teacher that I have a problem with. Not teachers in general, and I would appreciate it if you don't take my posts so personally, though I guess I can understand why you might if you're in that position yourself.

Clearly in this case, the principal thinks the teachers are committing plagiarism and has shown by his comments (even if they're innocent) that he's willing to turn the other cheek where they are concerned. So much for a zero tolerance policy, eh?

 

[yasmina]

Clearly in this case, the principal thinks the teachers are committing plagiarism and has shown by his comments (even if they're innocent) that he's willing to turn the other cheek where they are concerned. So much for a zero tolerance policy, eh

As I already said, I don't believe this principal knew what he was talking about. If he was caught unaware as to the context of the communication, he probably spouted the first thing he thought of. Not that it makes it right. A principal should be knowledgeable and professional enough to field any question from a parent in an educated manner befitting their status, and to me this does not qualify.

though I guess I can understand why you might if you're in that position yourself.

Before I spout off at you for interpreting this that that I plagiarize, I'm going to ask you to explain.

I was not taking anything personally, just trying to explain the real world of education from a teacher's perspective. As you can see, I not only quoted only a small portion of your reply (implying agreement with the rest), but also quoted part of the OP.

BTW, I have already stated my position on the actions of the teacher in the OP.

 

[TinkerbellMama]

These threads always tell me everything I need to know about my fellow DIS-ers!