6th grader gets 0 for plagiarism rant long

[N.Bailey]

I never said that this boy copied exactly half the project. I was talking about these:





The OP clearly states “Our school is K-12 and the school handbook states that there is a zero tolerance policy for plagiarism”. From what I understand, this means that you don’t get 10/10 (out of 100 total) on a rubric for “not plagiarizing”, and 0/10 (90/100) for plagiarizing. Similarly, if you only plagiarize one quarter of the paper you don’t start at a 75. Any plagiarism= automatic zero.



Yes he did. There were no quotes around whatever he wrote. In other words, he passed off material copy and pasted from a book as his own work (he is supposed to be writing the report so anything not quoted or footnoted is assumed to be his) Citing the source in the bibliography doesn’t cut it, for how is someone grading the assignment supposed to know what is your work, and what isn’t if all you have to do is throw it into the bibliography? Sources at the back only indicate that you’ve looked at a particular source for ideas and knowledge, and possibly taken direct quotations from it (which would be properly cited). Citing at the back does not mean you can copy large sections of the source without indicating this as either a direct quote or as paraphrasing.

There were NO quotes around anything because the kid wasn't ever taught how to do that and even the principal can't prove otherwise. You can take it to the bank, IF these kids were taught this, it could be proven. Unless of course, you think we're automatically born with some special knowledge and don't need to be taught certain things?

2ndly, the principal admitted that the teachers commit plagiarism by his comment of, "two wrongs don't make a right." (END QUOTE)

So, it appears that the zero tolerance policy is ONLY for certain individuals. Why are these teachers not docked 100% of their pay for doing the exact same thing? Actually, they're not doing the same thing because the boy was not taught how to use quotes and footnotes, but those teachers have NO excuse.

If the school reduces these teacher's salaries by 100%, I'm all in favor of this boy getting a 0. This teacher must think she's entitled to a paycheck without having to actually do the work that goes with the job.

Oh and a zero tolerance policy, yet this is the first child to ever be given a 0 for not having the quotes and footnotes. Is every other child in that school (though they're not honor students even - well aside from 1 other student) that brilliant?

When I read your post in the other thread about the girl being expelled from school, I found out all I need to know about you. You're in favor of tossing a child out of school and throwing her entire future down the drain based on 1 mistake when the child is a high honors student. God help us all if you were the judge, jury, and executioner, for the rest of mankind.

Does the term karma mean anything to you?

 

[swilphil]

Would you kindly inform the rest of us how this raises to the level of plagiarism if the boy stated where the information came from?

While I'm sure many people around here consider themselves to be highly educated, I think some of you might want to look this very basic word up on the dictionary.

Just because he attached a bibliography stating his source doesn't mean he didn't cheat. It just means he didn't cheat very well.

It is considered plagiarism if you do a Google search, then copy and paste what you find into your own paper. Even if you attach a bibliography. He could have used quotation marks, he could have paraphrased, and said "according to XX." If he's a straight A student and INITIALLY paraphrased his written work, it sounds like he knows that taking 10 seconds to cut and paste someone else's work is wrong.

 

[Cool-Beans]

To be plagiarism, the boy would have to be trying to pass it off as his own. He did no such thing.

I see what you're saying. It wasn't his intent to cheat.

But they can't let people off the hook because they say they didn't intend to do it. Everyone would say it.

The kid still did it, even if he didn't mean to do it. So, he gets a zero.

It sucks, but it happens. He'll learn what plagiarism is, he'll learn that sometimes he'll screw up even when he's doing his best. And he'll learn that taking a penalty for screwing up happens, but it isn't the worst thing in the world. Lots of good lessons there.

I find it hard to believe that nobody ever told the kids what plagiarism is or that they couldn't simply copy things down and turn it in as their own work. If they weren't, I suppose there is some argument to be made. But, still...I'd think by 6th grade they'd somehow know that you can't just "copy off" someone. So, a zero is in order.

 

[swilphil]

If your ds originally turned in work in his own words and the teacher handed it back saying it wasn't enough, why didn't he just add to what he had already done, but do it in his own words? Did he completely replace his words with the cut and paste or did he add it to what he already had?

If he just replaced his words with the cut and paste, then that is plagarism. If he added it to his own words, he might deserve a lowered grade but I would think it should not be a zero.

Kids in ds's elementary school were told from 4th grade on "not to just copy from the (book, encyclopedia, etc) but to read it and put it in their own words". I would imagine that is done in most elementary schools. Did you ask your son if he has heard this before?

Is this one project worth so many points that it will dramatically lower his grade or cause him to fail? What about all of the other work for the quarter? What would his quarter grade be? If he doesn't make the all A honor roll once, it will not be the end of the world. It will hurt for awhile, yes, but he will get over it.

Citation is taught before high school, at least in our school system. DS was taught a basic form of it in 5th and 6th grades for use in reports that they did, then in 7th grade they had handouts on citations to use with their work.

I am sorry that this happened to your son, but it could turn out to be a valuable lesson for him. Better to learn it in 6th grade than have it happen in high school or college.

I would suggest talking again with the teacher and principal together about this before you take it any higher. You need to be careful with this as you don't want the other kids teasing your son about "his daddy getting him a better grade". That would be worse for him than the lowered grade.

Kansas schools may be lacking in some areas, like evolution, but we are clearly superior in research skills!

 

[N.Bailey]

Just because he attached a bibliography stating his source doesn't mean he didn't cheat. It just means he didn't cheat very well.

It is considered plagiarism if you do a Google search, then copy and paste what you find into your own paper. Even if you attach a bibliography. He could have used quotation marks, he could have paraphrased, and said "according to XX." If he's a straight A student and INITIALLY paraphrased his written work, it sounds like he knows that taking 10 seconds to cut and paste someone else's work is wrong.

If you do a dictionary search, it's only plagiarism when you try to pass the work off as your own. Including the source proves that the boy did not do that. While he didn't use quotes, he used the only tool that he knew of at the time and that would be his bibliography.

As for the cheating part, I don't take exception to that and for that reason, I think points should be deducted. Even college professors don't give zeros for such things. The boy did the vast majority of this project on his own. Since the teacher didn't like the work he originally had done on his own, he turned elsewhere for more information, but he didn't turn to his parents because he was told he wasn't allowed.

Did this same teacher knock points off of the little girl's project that has a mommy who is a teacher and helped her? Wasn't that a part of the rule too? To not allow anyone to help? Why should this teacher be allowed to turn a blind eye to that? That's not cheating? Or, the teacher feels that's an acceptable form of cheating?

 

[mickeysgal]

Oh and a zero tolerance policy, yet this is the first child to ever be given a 0 for not having the quotes and footnotes. Is every other child in that school (though they're not honor students even - well aside from 1 other student) that brilliant?

Good point. You (the collective you) mean to tell me that there is not one other student in the entire 6th grade (and 7th and 8th) that has never cited incorrectly? They are all models of perfect research citation and no mistakes were never made since day 1 of being taught? Shouldn't there be loads of zeros on record already? And this is assuming that they were taught to cite whereas in this case the student wasn't taught.

Why is this teacher deciding to single out this one student at this point in time? Thats what I'd like to know. I find it hard to believe that all the other children got the citing perfectly correct especially after never being taught the skill.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Good point. You (the collective you) mean to tell me that there is not one other student in the entire 6th grade (and 7th and 8th) that has never cited incorrectly? They are all models of perfect research citation and no mistakes were never made since day 1 of being taught? Shouldn't there be loads of zeros on record already? And this is assuming that they were taught to cite whereas in this case the student wasn't taught.

Why is this teacher deciding to single out this one student at this point in time? Thats what I'd like to know. I find it hard to believe that all the other children got the citing perfectly correct especially after never being taught the skill.

Zero tolerance= zero common sense. These are 6th graders, not high school or college students. There are no other zeros because the other teachers used COMMON SENSE and good judgement. The other teachers probably used the opportunity to TEACH about proper citation if they hadn't already.

Sorry this happened to your son. I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance policies. What ever happened to good old common sense? Please explain to your son that he is still a good kid, made an honest mistake. I would hate for him to feel bad about himself for this.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Also, I have to submit lesson plans to my principle online before the week begins. This is how my administrator keeps abreast of what I am teaching, and can hold me accountable for teaching the standards in my subject matter. But, because they are online, he can also print the in the instance that a parent inquires about a project. For the principle to tell you that he will just take the word of the teacher as fact and not check her lesson plans to ensure that she has actually taught the subject matter really raises a red flag for me.

I'm guessing that the teacher is a tenured teacher and doesn't have to turn in weekly plans any more (not that I think tenured teachers shouldn't be held accountable for what they teach or do not teach) I don't like that the teacher can just say she taught it, without providing lesson plans- this is too huge of a deal.

 

[Merriwind]

It is considered plagiarism if you do a Google search, then copy and paste what you find into your own paper. Even if you attach a bibliography. He could have used quotation marks, he could have paraphrased, and said "according to XX." If he's a straight A student and INITIALLY paraphrased his written work, it sounds like he knows that taking 10 seconds to cut and paste someone else's work is wrong.

I agree with this and just asked my fourth grader if her science teacher would want research that is cut and pasted from the Internet in a science paper or project. She said no, that Mrs. T would want them to read the information, jot down notes if needed and type the information in their own words. I can't imagine that the school expects a sixth grader to know proper citation format, but certainly expects him to know that copying and pasting information off of the Internet (or any source) is wrong. My guess is that the wording of the material that the OP's son copied was clearly not 6th grade work and that's what had the teacher check his sources.

Do I think that the teacher missed a teachable moment here--yes. Again, not so much the details of citations and endnotes, but why simply copying and pasting is wrong--and why it is cheating. As far as the grade, I think that's a judgement call. From reading the responses here some would have given the project a 90, some a 50 and some a zero. Different teachers have different standards--and grading by a human is always going to be somewhat subjective.

OP, I don't know if a sixth grade project where your son really did do something he shouldn't is the place to battle the school board and such. Only you can answer that question. I am very thankful for your son that this happened in 6th grade, not when he was older and the grade could really affect his future. I'm sure that he will never copy and paste any info into work that is turned into school again and that is a lesson that will serve him well through the rest of his school career.

I'm sorry that you are going through this. I can only imagine how stressful this whole situation is for your family. It sounds like your son is a good kid and a good student. I hope you can put this episode behind all of you soon.

 

[jrmasm]

Just because he attached a bibliography stating his source doesn't mean he didn't cheat. It just means he didn't cheat very well.

Exactly.


I think the discussion about citation rules is a red herring. A first grader knows that you don't copy someone else's work. This is exactly the same thing. He copied someone else's work.

 

[Grand Canyon]

I'm guessing that the teacher is a tenured teacher and doesn't have to turn in weekly plans any more (not that I think tenured teachers shouldn't be held accountable for what they teach or do not teach) I don't like that the teacher can just say she taught it, without providing lesson plans- this is too huge of a deal.

I don't know when teachers become tenured. This teacher has been here (I think) three years, maybe four. She's a fairly young teacher - late 20's to early 30's. Personally, I think that is part of the problem - a lack of experience.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I know you're annoyed, but in the big picture, a zero in middle school doesn't matter much, and I'll bet he'll never make that mistake again.

 

[darlak]

I almost always side with the school, even when it's my own child. Some of you might remember that she recently tried to take an AR test for a friend.

I believe that a 6th grader should know that it's wrong to copy and paste someone else's work word for word, whether rules for citation have been taught yet or not.

However, given the age of your child, I think a 0 was a little harsh. I do think there should have been some form of consequences though. Probably some points deducted from his grade.

 

[Karel]

If you do a dictionary search, it's only plagiarism when you try to pass the work off as your own. Including the source proves that the boy did not do that. While he didn't use quotes, he used the only tool that he knew of at the time and that would be his bibliography.
?

Your dictionary definition of plagiarism is too simplistic. I think it's common sense that you can't print out a page from the internet, put it in a report and hand it in. This is taught in our elementary school as early as first or second grade, when they have to do an animal report.

You simply cannot cite, footnote or quote entire paragraphs of someone else's writing. You cannot copy whole paragraphs and then use a bibliography to make it ok.

 

[MerryPoppins]

I'm also a teacher. What he did was wrong, but it sounds like he thought he was doing it the right way. I say they should knock some points off or make him do it over. A zero is way too excessive for a 6th grader.

 

[swilphil]

Your dictionary definition of plagiarism is too simplistic. I think it's common sense that you can't print out a page from the internet, put it in a report and hand it in. This is taught in our elementary school as early as first or second grade, when they have to do an animal report.

You simply cannot cite, footnote or quote entire paragraphs of someone else's writing. You cannot copy whole paragraphs and then use a bibliography to make it ok.

You explained that much better than I did. When people say kids shouldn't be punished because they didn't know how to do citations, I agree but that means they might not know the mechanics of parenthetical citations or appropriate times to cite sources. It's not carte blanche to copy and paste what they find.

Because of how easy it is now to cheat on papers using the internet (and there are several websites specifically for this purpose), schools are starting to go way beyond the zero tolerance policy given here. Kids can fail classes or even be kicked out of college. Schools are also using services like turnitin.com to evaluate students papers to see how much of it is copied and from what website.

 

[lisajl]

My son-13-goes to an online school. He had a project due and thought he would cut corners. 13-8th grade. He cut and pasted. Guess what?
Plagerism. Yep, teacher said redo it or get a zero.

My son learned proper citing in 6th grade here in our local schools, but I think what you are dealing with is pretty severe.
They should have talked to him and maybe had him redo some of the project.
No, he would not have won anything, but he could have brought his grade up.

 

[DISUNC]

Good thing the DisBoards dont give points or banishment for Plagerism!!!!

just sayin!

However, OP I'd fight this. Sounds like the teacher is being more like Judge & Jury too me.

 

[golfgal]

I'm guessing that the teacher is a tenured teacher and doesn't have to turn in weekly plans any more (not that I think tenured teachers shouldn't be held accountable for what they teach or do not teach) I don't like that the teacher can just say she taught it, without providing lesson plans- this is too huge of a deal.

Your tenured teachers don't have to turn in lesson plans???? All of the teachers in our schools have to turn in plans weekly.


I still want to see this project. I think people are all over the place on this and without seeing exactly what was done you can't really say if what he did was right or wrong.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Well, I'm untenured and I only have to turn my plans in once every few months. I teach music (strings), maybe it's different for classroom teachers, not sure. I have had tenure in another district and didn't hve to turn in more than once in a while.