13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[mnrose]

Thiss is a good article:

Clock ticks in Jahi McMath case; experts say court clash went too far

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...d-case-20131230,0,4012633.story#ixzz2p1LwJtVi

That is a great article. Thanks for posting this. It explains it very well, I think. And, it really adds more details...like exactly how many doctors have to say to this family "your child is dead" for them to believe it? It is way more than one hospital doctor and one court appointed doctor....but THREE more "independent" doctors hired by the family. At some point, this is absolutely absurd...as much as we feel for this family, it has to end.

 

[CF'er]

Thanks for the article Pea-N-Me.

 

[sunshinehighway]

See, I said I may not know what I was talking about. Thanks for clarifying. The article I just read didn't mention anything about being brain dead so I assumed that was the difference. So if her body hasn't deteriorated and she is brain dead, why is the assumption that the 13 y/o will deteriorate so quickly? Is the difference the feeding tube?

Yeah that's my question. People seem to be saying she is going to start decomposing and her body won't even make it until January 7th (sorry to be graphic and insensitive). Someone even mentioned rigor mortis. It just doesn't make sense to me when you have a woman in Texas they are planning to keep alive (for lack of a better word) for weeks maybe even months depending on the condition of the fetus.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I was also going to post the same CNN article that dack posted, because unlike many other articles, it contained an interesting tidbit that most other articles I've read don't have: an glimpse at a document from the actual case, submitted in court, that CNN obtained.

Here it is, specific to the Jahi McMath case:

Court document reveals details

Medical ethicists, meanwhile, say the high-profile case fuels a misperception: that "brain death" is somehow not as final as cardiac death, even though, by definition, it is. The case is "giving the impression that dead people can come back to life," Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center, told CNN last week

CNN has obtained a copy of a medical report, contained in a court filing, that lays out in extensive detail the testing that supports the hospital's conclusion that McMath has no hope of recovery.

The report was prepared by Dr. Paul Fisher, Chief of Pediatric Neurology at Stanford University, who was appointed by Alameda Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo to examine the girl and report his findings to the court.

Fisher found that the girl's pupils were fully dilated and unresponsive to light and that she did not respond to a variety of intense stimuli.

His report also says McMath showed no sign of breathing on her own when a ventilator was removed: "Patient failed apnea test." While the family has referred to Jahi's heart beating, the report says it is only beating because of the mechanical ventilator.

In addition, an imaging test showed no blood flow to Jahi's brain, while another showed no sign of electrical activity.

Fisher's conclusion: "Overall, unfortunate circumstances in 13-year-old with known, irreversible brain injury and now complete absence of cerebral function and complete absence of brainstem function, child meets all criteria for brain death, by professional societies and state of California."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/30/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Thanks for the article Pea-N-Me.

You're welcome. I added another, also.

 

[LisaR]

Yeah that's my question. People seem to be saying she is going to start decomposing and her body won't even make it until January 7th (sorry to be graphic and insensitive). Someone even mentioned rigor mortis. It just doesn't make sense to me when you have a woman in Texas they are planning to keep alive (for lack of a better word) for weeks maybe even months depending on the condition of the fetus.

After reading the article Pea-n-Me just posted, I'm guessing decay isn't going to set in. This is from the article:

Although, in most cases, death comes when the heart and lungs stop working, in others — like Jahi’s — death comes with the cessation of all brain activity, but a ventilator can provide apparent signs of life.

“A beating heart, warm skin, and minimal, if any, signs of bodily decay — are a sort of mask that hides from plain sight the fact that the biological organism has ceased to function as such,” says the December 2008 white paper by the President’s Council on Bioethics.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...d-case-20131230,0,4012633.story#ixzz2p1SNmz4h

 

[sunshinehighway]

After reading the article Pea-n-Me just posted, I'm guessing decay isn't going to set in. This is from the article:

Although, in most cases, death comes when the heart and lungs stop working, in others — like Jahi’s — death comes with the cessation of all brain activity, but a ventilator can provide apparent signs of life.

“A beating heart, warm skin, and minimal, if any, signs of bodily decay — are a sort of mask that hides from plain sight the fact that the biological organism has ceased to function as such,” says the December 2008 white paper by the President’s Council on Bioethics.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...d-case-20131230,0,4012633.story#ixzz2p1SNmz4h

Thank you.

It's interesting to see how ideas developed in threads and become facts which several people seem to agree on even when they don't make sense.

 

[sookie]

I think the article in the LA times says that 6 doctors have declared her brain dead.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

That is a great article. Thanks for posting this. It explains it very well, I think. And, it really adds more details...like exactly how many doctors have to say to this family "your child is dead" for them to believe it? It is way more than one hospital doctor and one court appointed doctor....but THREE more "independent" doctors hired by the family. At some point, this is absolutely absurd...as much as we feel for this family, it has to end.

Another interesting thing from that article is this - again something I haven't seen elsewhere. And this one says it is from court records as well:

According to court records, Jahi underwent a complex tonsillectomy and was declared brain-dead three days later, on Dec. 12, after she went into cardiac arrest, lost oxygen to her brain and suffered extensive hemorrhaging. Two physicians at Childrens Hospital Oakland and three independent physicians requested by the family declared Jahi brain-dead.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...d-case-20131230,0,4012633.story#ixzz2p1T4crfo

It makes one wonder about the actual sequence of events. At what point did she have the cardiac arrest? Was it due to the bleeding? That's what we've been led to believe from most articles. Or not? We know that some bleeding is normal after this procedure. We also know that sleep apnea is associated with heart and lung problems. (And I truly hate to say it, but that obesity is associated with higher surgical risk.)

At any rate, there is no doubt much to be learned from the medical records about what actually happened. (And yes, we may never see them; although we are getting glimpses from the court records.) I agree with a pp that Children's is a great facility and more than likely well staffed. Emergencies are probably dealt with very adeptly. We already know she transferred from a regular floor to an ICU, something that wouldn't normally be done for a routine tonsillectomy. There was a reason that occurred - the question is, why, what was the sequence of events and the timing of events?

Much has been mentioned about Mom holding a cup while Jahi was bleeding from her mouth. It is interesting to me. Having spent many years as a hospital nurse, sure, there were times I had to enlist the aid of a family member, or even patients themselves, during an emergency while I ran to call a code or put in a page for help. And no doubt to someone in the room, those seconds seem like hours. But within seconds, literally, help is there and many hands and minds are working to do what needs to be done. In other words, IME, the fact that Mom, who was likely sitting at Jahi's bedside and helping to care for her (as I was at my own daughter's after her surgery last week), held a cup for her if she was bleeding, doesn't scream negligence, necessarily.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

Hard cases make bad law.

When you ask a court for a temporary restraining order or a preliminary injunction, the court has to "weigh the equities". Can you ultimately win at trial? And will a trial verdict be moot if the court doesn't grant the injunction?

This judge is afraid to make the hard decision despite all the evidence submitted by independent third parties that the girl is brain dead and that there is no hope of recovery. Because if the vent is removed and a higher court later rules that it should not have been removed, you can't put the vent back . . .

Couple of other points to make.

When you file a medical malpractice action you put your medical condition at issue, you essentially give up your right to privacy. Your medical records become part of the court record. In most jurisdictions those records will not be sealed even if you sign a confidentiality agreement. And confidentiality agreements usually don't come into play until you settle the case, after considerable pretrial discovery has been done.

A bad outcome isn't always the result of medical malpractice. You still have to prove the medical providers were negligent and their conduct fell below the standard of care.


We all know the medical malpractice claim is coming, if it hasn't been filed already. Sooner or later there will be a deposition, and if the media is still interested we may hear more of the hospital's side of the story. But I wouldn't count on that. Unless this case goes to trial and the media takes an interest, we are not likely to hear much more than we already know.

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[barkley]

Hard cases make bad law.

When you ask a court for a temporary restraining order or a preliminary injunction, the court has to "weigh the equities". Can you ultimately win at trial? And will a trial verdict be moot if the court doesn't grant the injunction?

This judge is afraid to make the hard decision despite all the evidence submitted by independent third parties that the girl is brain dead and that there is no hope of recovery. Because if the vent is removed and a higher court later rules that it should not have been removed, you can't put the vent back . . .

Couple of other points to make.

When you file a medical malpractice action you put your medical condition at issue, you essentially give up your right to privacy. Your medical records become part of the court record. In most jurisdictions those records will not be sealed even if you sign a confidentiality agreement. And confidentiality agreements usually don't come into play until you settle the case, after considerable pretrial discovery has been done.

A bad outcome isn't always the result of medical malpractice. You still have to prove the medical providers were negligent and their conduct fell below the standard of care.


We all know the medical malpractice claim is coming, if it hasn't been filed already. Sooner or later there will be a deposition, and if the media is still interested we may hear more of the hospital's side of the story. But I wouldn't count on that. Unless this case goes to trial and the media takes an interest, we are not likely to hear much more than we already know.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using DISBoards

this won't end up being a mega million dollar malpractice case because of California law. b/c the patient (or decedent) was a minor there's no claim for loss of financial support, and California caps 'pain and suffering' at $250K no matter what a jury awards. the only other funds that could come of a case would be for medical care, but since the alameda coroner as well as the children's hospital doctors (and the outside experts the family demanded)declared the child as deceased on 12/12 I suspect it would be an uphill (costly) battle to get much of any ongoing care covered (and it would be in trust for the child-not for the family's benefit).

 

[Lorelei Lee]

this won't end up being a mega million dollar malpractice case because of California law. b/c the patient (or decedent) was a minor there's no claim for loss of financial support, and California caps 'pain and suffering' at $250K no matter what a jury awards. the only other funds that could come of a case would be for medical care, but since the alameda coroner as well as the children's hospital doctors (and the outside experts the family demanded)declared the child as deceased on 12/12 I suspect it would be an uphill (costly) battle to get much of any ongoing care covered (and it would be in trust for the child-not for the family's benefit).

Yes, but once the settlement is reached and the money paid to her, what happens when her heart stood beating?

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[Pea-n-Me]

Looks like the place willing to take her body is in Long Island, NY.

According to the family's court filings, the New Beginnings Community Center in Medford, N.Y., is willing to provide 24-hour care for Jahi. The facility's management could not be reached for comment Monday night by KTVU-TV.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/...rain-dead-says-ny-facility-is-last-last-hope/

About: http://www.nbli.org/about/

Obstacles still ahead include the receiving facility meeting criteria set forth by the hospital, independent doctors performing tracheostomy and feeding tube placement (if her body survives those procedures), and medical transport from CA to NY.

The family will likely need to move to NY, also, to be with her. They will need to stay somewhere.

We'll see how this plays out over the next few days.

 

[2Kds2K9]

Woa! Has anyone read the info about the facility in Long Island willing to take this girl? All I have to say is ????????? It does not sound like a true medical facility.

 

[dakcp2001]

Woa! Has anyone read the info about the facility in Long Island willing to take this girl? All I have to say is ????????? It does not sound like a true medical facility.

Can you share a link or the name of the facility?

 

[mnrose]

Woa! Has anyone read the info about the facility in Long Island willing to take this girl? All I have to say is ????????? It does not sound like a true medical facility.

And, the executive director is a hair dresser. That sounds like the perfect credential for a rehab center.

It doesn't even indicate that they have ANY in patient care.

Bizarre to say the least.

Prediction: this young lady's body won't end up there.

 

[bdcp]

See, I said I may not know what I was talking about. Thanks for clarifying. The article I just read didn't mention anything about being brain dead so I assumed that was the difference. So if her body hasn't deteriorated and she is brain dead, why is the assumption that the 13 y/o will deteriorate so quickly? Is the difference the feeding tube?

She will deteriorate, but they're trying to keep her going long enough to deliver the baby alive. It's been done before successfully. Their goal is to save the baby, period. Although her family is opposed, law requires them to do so because she was/is pregnant. I'm pro-life, but when she died, if her baby wasn't viable, I'm not sure how I feel about this. As most pro-lifers feel, you don't sacrifice the mother to save the child, but in this case the decision for the mother is out of everyone's hands.

Being that she was deprived of oxygen for an hour, her baby may also be brain dead at this point. The problem is they can't tell and what they're doing may be futile.

 

[mnrose]

Can you share a link or the name of the facility?

It's a couple of posts above...nbli something....

 

[Sultana]

New Beginnings Community Center in Medford, N.Y.

 

[Disney Doll]

I know people are saying keeping her on the ventilator is sick and abuse of corpse and that she won't last another week but I'm confused. Isn't there a brain dead woman being kept on a ventilator in Texas? Anyone know what I'm talking about? I don't know her name but I remember reading about a pregnant woman in Texas that had been declared brain dead. Her family wants the ventilator removed but the law won't allow it because she is pregnant.

Are they a different kind of brain dead or are people just making stuff up about her body starting to break down on the ventilator? In the Texas situation they (the hospital) are keeping her on it at least a few more weeks to see if there was any damage to the fetus. If they think it's OK physically (I guess they will have no idea about mental damage) they will keep the woman on it basically as an incubator.

You answered your own question. If the woman has a viable fetus they are keeping her alive until such point that the fetus can be safely delivered I would assume.