Your thoughts on DVC

[G8RFAN]

........I've always given both sides to the equasion. It's not an "investment" ........and it's definitely not a solid financial decision for a good number of people.

Anne

First, it's good seeing you post Anne. Maybe it's just me but I haven't seen you around as much. Second, we are the same way. We must have been asked by dozens of friends and coworkers about DVC and I am careful to tell them both sides of the equation, and to go visit the models and determine if it is a good fit for them. I am not a proponent of financing such a purchase, especially if the payment could result in financial hardship if a life changing event happens.

 

[pilferk]

I've been to Disney 15 or so times. I've taken the DVC tour a couple of times. Here are my reasons why I haven't joined.

1.I think it's irresponsible. There are too many variables in life that occur. I could lose my job tomorrow and what if I can't sell it right away? Credit goes bye-bye really fast.

2.I don't like the accomodations. I think the studio rooms at the locations I've seen aren't as nice as the regular hotel rooms.

3.I like having housekeeping everyday and not having to pay extra for it.

4.The cost of the points once you buy may not increase, but the number of points it takes to stay year to year does. It's the same difference.

5.I've always been perfectly content staying at a Value Resort.

6.If you look hard enough, you can stay cheaper in a moderate and still not spend much more than you would with DVC.

Bottom line is, last time I got back, I sat down for a long time and looked at the cost. I wrote it down in every way imaginable, with different point purchases, cost increases, time we stay, etc. I don't care what anyone says, unless you're paying cash up front for it, you're not saving as much as they want you to believe. If you pay cash up front, don't count yearly dues, and only stay in Deluxe accomodations, sure - It can save you money. The more variables you take out of that equation, the less money you save.

A few points:

1) Pay cash or finance very short term. I know, lots of people can't do that and, rightly so, that may make DVC "not right" for them. I wouldn't say DVC is irresponsible to purchase...rather there are irresponsible WAYS to purchase it.

2) I think thats a matter of personal taste. Most of the studios I've seen (SSR, BCV, and the AKV models) are as nice as any hotel room I've seen on property...again, a matter of personal taste.

3) A valid point. I don't mind only getting trash and towel, and having to purchase an additional towel pack on check in. As for other "cleaning"...I don't make the bed every day at home...it doesn't bother me not to have it made on vacation. I LIKE the idea of having a laundry facility free for use, and in room for a 1BR or larger, because it means we have to pack less. That's worth running the machine

4) NOT true. Absolutely, 100%, not true. The total number of points at a resort can NEVER, EVER change. If one week goes up, another has to come down (Easter is a good example of this) to balance it out. If one accomodation type goes up, another has to come down. There will ALWAYS be the same "number" of points at a resort, every year.

5) Then DVC is not for you.

6)True, right now. Moderate hotel rates seem to be very close to the break even point, and with discounts...they're lower. Today. 15 years from now, if you were to buy into DVC today? Probably not, when looking at historical information, and comparing room rate increases to dues increases.

Cash up front, with dues, at AKV your ppt cost is about 6.53 per point (the most expensive option, I think, right now). For one week, in a standard studio at AKV (83 points) in value season, that comes out to 541.99, or 77.42 per night. You get almost 2 full weeks (6 points short) in value season for that 160 point minimum. If you travel during peak season, (Xmas and Easter...144 pts per week), that goes up to 940.32, or 134.33 per night.

Financing would about double that cost, I think.

On "opportunity cost", assuming a 7% APY, you'd need to spend right around 1200 for accomondations for DVC to be "worth" it over investing the same 160 point "cost" and adding to it with dues money.

I, too, have run these numbers 6 different ways from Sunday, and, for OUR vacation habits, and OUR situation, I can't make them NOT be a good deal. I'm sure others (like you) with different habits or situations might see differently. But as I've said in another thread: For us, it's a good deal. To determine if it is for YOU, you really have to put the numbers through the paces that make sense for you, and your family.

 

[boomhauer]

Actually, no, that's not based on low season, no weekends. Including a weekend, Dream Season - the third priciest - gets you 12 days in an OKW studio for 148 points. Magic Season - the second most expensive, costs 164 points for those 12 days (again, including two weekend nights.) You are using $99/night for the value, which is the rate for Regular, the second cheapest.

Look, as I said, I agree with your main point - one of the many groups for whom DVC isn't appropriate are folks who are happy in Values. But I'm too much of a numbers geek to not comment on mismatched examples. 8 days in a Value at Regular Season isn't a fair comparison to 160 DVC points.

The reason I was using those numbers to begin with was because someone else used 8 days as an example.

I think it is a fair comaprison (monetarily speaking) because you're not factoring all DVC costs into the equation. And like I said yesterday, I don't remember the last time I stayed on Disney property for rack rate. If nothing, AAA rates are almost always available and will save you money.

I know where you're coming from. I'm a numbers nerd myself. I thought long and hard about DVC and really wanted it to work. This is just another example of different variables that you have to adjust to your own situation.

On a side note, I never use OKW as an example, because I'd never stay there. I stayed there once back in 2004 and I disliked it. I use Wilderness Lodge or Boardwalk as my examples, because those are the ones I would want to stay in.

 

[ChelleinNC]

It is truly a personal decision. If I were willing/happy to stay at a value, then DVC would not be a good choice. I have only stayed at deluxes, using my ap discount. Back in Dec 01, we paid $189nt +tax at BC, those days are long gone. AP discounts have gotten harder to get, and the best I've seen has been $100 off rack which has gone up astronomically over the last few years. The 250 points we bought will always get the same number of nights, the hotel rates will only keep going up.
The other thing that finally got us to buy DVC is that DD is almost 14 now, DS10. There is no way they will share a bed, and the daybed at BC is starting to feel small to DS. The regular rooms were getting tight and buying enough points for at least a 1br made more sense to us than 2 rooms at a deluxe.

 

[pilferk]

In 20 years, with the dues, you will have spent $32,273 on DVC. Please keep in mind, that is if you pay UP FRONT and DO NOT FINANCE.

Let's just say, you take the regular 2007 season rate of $99 per night at a Value Resort for 8 nights and adjust the chart yearly with a 4% increase over the same 20 year period:

Except that 160 points will buy you 13 days in a Standard AKV studio (starting on a Sunday, running one week (90 pts) + 6 days (5 week days (50 pts), then one more weekend night (20 pts)) in "regular" season. So your numbers SHOULD be these:

1287
1351.35
1418.9175
1489.863375
1564.356544
1642.574371
1724.703089
1810.938244
1901.485156
1996.559414
2096.387385
2201.206754
2311.267092
2426.830446
2548.171968
2675.580567
2809.359595
2949.827575
3097.318954
3252.184901


For a total of 42555.88.

Over 20 years, you would spend $23,345 without DVC. To break even with 160 points, it would take you 24 years, and this is all assuming, you have received no annual pass discounts in that time.

Less..somewhere between 16 and 17. Which is actually why people say you shouldn't buy if you're content and happy in the values: It takes too long to break even.

Also, this is assuming you pay for DVC upfront and don't finance it. If you finance it, you're probably looking at just breaking even over the life of membership. To take it a step further, if you DO adjust for resort room discounts, it's almost assured you'd spend more money with DVC.

The break even point at 50 years seems to occur, in your scenario (but using 13 days) only if you start with a rate of less than $45 a night (again, not taking into account financing.)

EDIT: Sorry for the typo...should have been $45, not $15. OOOPS!

If you wanna take it even further, this is on an 8 night per year scenario in a studio. If you factor in a 1 bedroom or above, forget it. Not even close.

Well, the point is...a 1BR isn't comparable to a "regular room". Not really. That'd be like comparing a value room to a suite.

Of course, this isn't apples to apples. You're talking a studio at a DVC versus a hotel room at a value. Some, much prefer the DVC studio. I've stayed in both and I can honestly say, hands down, I would chose a value standard room.

The point I'm trying to make is this: I think alot of people are talked into joining DVC under the assumption that they are saving all this money no matter how you look at it, assuming you go to Disney every year. This simply isn't true.

Absolutely true. There are lots of factors, and you need to adequately appraise all of them. You have to juggle ALL the numbers, and look at them ALL in relation to what you get with DVC. Then decide what's right for you and your family. DVC is not right for everyone. It's not a good deal for everyone. But there are certainly scenarios where it IS a good deal.

 

[boomhauer]

It is truly a personal decision. If I were willing/happy to stay at a value, then DVC would not be a good choice. I have only stayed at deluxes, using my ap discount. Back in Dec 01, we paid $189nt +tax at BC, those days are long gone. AP discounts have gotten harder to get, and the best I've seen has been $100 off rack which has gone up astronomically over the last few years. The 250 points we bought will always get the same number of nights, the hotel rates will only keep going up.
The other thing that finally got us to buy DVC is that DD is almost 14 now, DS10. There is no way they will share a bed, and the daybed at BC is starting to feel small to DS. The regular rooms were getting tight and buying enough points for at least a 1br made more sense to us than 2 rooms at a deluxe.

This was something we considered as well. Having a 6 year old and twin infants, a Value room will be more difficult in the future. We'll be testing the waters with Port Orleans next week and a trundle bed.

If my kids are anything like me, they'll be so happy to be in Disney, they'd sleep in the hallway.

 

[TTT103]

There seems to be an awful amount of justifying going on in this thread.

 

[Quinn222]

We go a lot but DVD isn't for us right now. We tend to go for long weekends, 3 or 4 days and the way the points system works it punishes you for staying on weekends. Maybe some time in the future it will be better for us.

 

[pilferk]

I guess I've always wondered about people who can stay at a deluxe or with a DVC membership. . . do you really USE your resort while you are at Disney? That's the big problem my husband has with spending that much money on a resort (or a DVC membership) where you aren't there a whole lot.

I'll take a crack at that one:

We've found we use our resort (and keep in mind, I've not yet made a DVC trip..we're new owners) a LOT.

Because, having been there so often, we tend to not need to do the parks "commando style" anymore. In addition, with VERY young kids, going "commando" doesn't seem to fit very well. We did it when we were DINKS (and younger!), but now.....I like being able to go slower, stop and "smell the roses", get that afternoon break/nap/pool visit in, etc.

Which is one of the things we liked about DVC. It KEEPS us going there every year...so we can continue to vacation at that pace. Sure, there's lots of new stuff to see and do every trip...but we also know we'll be back again relatively soon, so we can slow our pace a bit.

 

[jamstew]

We go a lot but DVD isn't for us right now. We tend to go for long weekends, 3 or 4 days and the way the points system works it punishes you for staying on weekends. Maybe some time in the future it will be better for us.

The weekend thing is one of my biggest reasons for not buying. Trips to Disney are more for my kids and grandkids than for me, and weekends are required travel time for them. I'd have to have 300+ points to get a 2BR villa for a week every year in a season when the adults and children can travel, and that just isn't going to happen. I'd rather rent points for villas or pay for deluxe or moderate rooms, hopefully with at least a AAA discount.

 

[pilferk]

Not necessarily.
Now, I don't proclaim to know what the dues are for AKV, so the math here is VERY ballpark - but we were in AKL in May and spent less than $1200 for a 6 nights, 1 of which was a weekend. Yes, that probably a little more than the annual dues, but not really a substantial amount since we did not have to pay and factor in the upfront approximate $20K for DVC membership.

Over the long run I know members probably save money, but we are a family of 3 that does likes to have our WDW vacations to ourselves so space is not really an issue, and we're OK with having just a 'fridge vs a full kitchen.

I guess it's kind of like DDP - works great for some people, doesn't work out for others. Doesn't mean the opposing view is wrong.

Just for informational purposes:

Those 6 days, in a standard view studio would be 77 pts, 91 in Savannah view.

Dues are 4.62 per point...so 355.74 for the 77 pts and 420.42 for the 91 pts.


If you factor in upfront cost (to get to 6.53 per point..dues + point cost/50), the rooms would have cost 502.81 and 594.21 respectively.

Those are the numbers DVC owners are looking at and wondering how the OP could come up with the assertion they did.

 

[pilferk]

Wow - That's alot.

To give the Value comparison, over 20 years starting with the current summer season rate of $99 per night and factoring in the 4% yearly increase, for 15 nights a year, you would spend $44,220.

For 15 nights at a DVC resort, dues alone starting at $2,500 a year, with the 4% yearly increase, you would spend over 20 years $74,446.

That doesn't include the purchase price of DVC or any discounts off a room only you could get.

Again, we all know staying Value is cheaper than DVC, but this gives even more of an example of just how much we're talking about.

In case anyone's wondering what the moderate resort comparison would be, starting with the current summer rate of $175, for 15 nights a year with the 4% increase, over 20 years you would spend $78,167. So, staying at a moderate you'd be spending $3,721 more than DVC, but remember - That's only dues. That doesn't count the purchase of DVC, finance charges or any room only discounts you could get.

Note the OP said "15 days during the holidays". Meaning December or Easter.

Your value rate baloons up to $129 a night, and the mods jump up to $199 a night...and discounts are scarce during that time.

You should plug those in because I get, for values, 55461 over 20 years and for mods 92405.70.

In addition, they're not staying in a studio.....

 

[girt25]

The weekend thing is one of my biggest reasons for not buying. Trips to Disney are more for my kids and grandkids than for me, and weekends are required travel time for them. I'd have to have 300+ points to get a 2BR villa for a week every year in a season when the adults and children can travel, and that just isn't going to happen. I'd rather rent points for villas or pay for deluxe or moderate rooms, hopefully with at least a AAA discount.

There's a lot of reasons to not join the DVC, and it's probably not the right for a vast majority of the people. I read pretty much the whole thread and really agreed with most of the arguments on both side. But this has lost me a little however. How is renting points better if you go for a week every year? Isn't the going rate for rental points more then double the assessed maint fees?

You'll still need the same number of points weather you rent or own.. so

Also.. isn't DVC a much better deal for families that needs a 2BR? I mean even 2 rooms in moderate runs over 300 dollars with tax. 2 deluxe rooms wouldn't even be in the ballpark of the cost of a 2br DVC unit...

I know a lot of people say DVC benefits Renters more then owners, but I can't really see how that works. Why would there be such a problem with commercial renters if that were the case?

 

[jamstew]

There's a lot of reasons to not join the DVC, and it's probably not the right for a vast majority of the people. I read pretty much the whole thread and really agreed with most of the arguments on both side. But this has lost me a little however. How is renting points better if you go for a week every year? Isn't the going rate for rental points more then double the assessed maint fees?

You'll still need the same number of points weather you rent or own.. so

Yes, you need the same number of points and yes, it's almost double the maintenance fees, but the maintenance fee comparison only comes into play after you've paid for the buy-in.

You can usually rent for between $10-$13 a point. If I need 315 points for a week in May in a 2BR, I could rent them for between $3,150 and $4,095, or $450-$585 a night. That's comparable to the the 2 rooms we'd need for the 7 of us in a deluxe, but more than 2 rooms in a moderate.

The buy-in for DVC at 315 points would be almost $33,000 at AKV (savanna view), and this doesn't include dues. For that amount of money, we can do 10 weeks by renting points.

My issues are:

1) I'm 60 years old. I definitely won't be doing Disney for the next 30 years, probably not even the next ten.

2) If I bought DVC, it would be for my children and grandchildren. I don't know (and neither do they since their children are very young), how often they would use it, if they would continue to use it, or whether they could afford to use it (air fare, food, etc.).

3) I don't care anything about having a kitchen.

4) I do care about having housekeeping.

All that said, my ex and I bought a timeshare on a beautiful lake in Hot Springs when our kids were small. It was within a 4-hour drive from home, and we never regretted it. We've either used, exchanged or rented it every year for the last 25 years. Had we been able to afford Disney back then and had DVC been available, there's no question that we would have done it But not now, not at my age, and not knowing what my kids will want to do in the future. My guess is that we'll go as a family no more than 3 times in the next 10 years, so it's definitely not worthwhile for us.

 

[boomhauer]

Note the OP said "15 days during the holidays". Meaning December or Easter.

Your value rate baloons up to $129 a night, and the mods jump up to $199 a night...and discounts are scarce during that time.

You should plug those in because I get, for values, 55461 over 20 years and for mods 92405.70.

In addition, they're not staying in a studio.....

Anopther example of the variable scenario. I wouldn't run those high Value numbers because I never have and never will go at Christmas or Easter. It has nothing to do with price. I have no interest in going when the crowds are that high. Of course, absolutely, if someone wnats to go during that time, then it would change things in favor of DVC.

As for the studio, eh. I stayed in a studio at OKW and wasn't impressed at all. The room wasn't much bigger than a room at a moderate with the exception of the bathroom.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[mommytobug]

I have not read through all the replies but will share my thoughts. We bought on our first trip. We were staying at the Poly. I had no idea what DVC was, but went and asked and agreed to take the tour. Well, after looking at what we paid for one week ( and we were on a pay for 4 nights get 7 discount), we knew DVC was right for us. We are not park commandos. We were not that year. We ENJOYED just being together and moving slowly. We knew we would be back. We have not been back but are planning a trip now (due to failed adoptions, etc). I smile knowing my dd and her children will enjoy Disney or any of the other places if offers. That to me is worth everything.

 

[KristenHoneymooner]

I have been reading this thread with interest, and I am curious about the possible pressures on DVC members that might impact what they say about DVC. Please understand that I am in no way implying that anyone here is being less than truthful -- I'm just curious about the contingencies at play here (I'm a psychology grad student/university instructor, so human behavior always interests me ).

To use the language of psychology, are current DVC owners rewarded or punished for encouraging others to join? My uninformed guess is that they would be punished, because more members equals more people competing with them for spots at their favorite DVC resorts. Is there a financial incentive to the group for getting new members (e.g., do dues go down or anything if there are more people to share them?)

I'm just curious

 

[Sammie]

I have been reading this thread with interest, and I am curious about the possible pressures on DVC members that might impact what they say about DVC. Please understand that I am in no way implying that anyone here is being less than truthful -- I'm just curious about the contingencies at play here (I'm a psychology grad student/university instructor, so human behavior always interests me ).

To use the language of psychology, are current DVC owners rewarded or punished for encouraging others to join? My uninformed guess is that they would be punished, because more members equals more people competing with them for spots at their favorite DVC resorts. Is there a financial incentive to the group for getting new members (e.g., do dues go down or anything if there are more people to share them?)

I'm just curious

If anyone actually has that much time on their hands to really try and influence the DVC market by making comments on this forum, then that is truly sad.

There are only so many points sold at each resort and therefore at 11-7months there is no competetion with other members, so I really think it is a moot point.

 

[ElizabethB]

What I do notice is that some people who have made the DVC investment do not want to hear that perhaps they didn't make such a good investment. Once they've sunk the $20,000, plus interest on the loan, plus annual maintenance fees, they want only to hear how smart they are!

 

[snowdrift7]

We've been DVC members since '96. This is for people worried about having to make reservations 11 mos in advance.

We aren't planners - we don't make ADR's; we don't map out an itinerary; AND we don't make reservations until 3 months out. We're "last minute" vacationers.

Even tho' we go at busy times (late June), we always get the type of room we want at the resort we want. Only once were we waitlisted (for 3 days). We stay at OKW because we love it there - we love the big rooms and how laid back it is. This year we made 2 reservations, at OKW in May (called to reserve in late Feb) and at BWV & BCV in Sept (called in June). Maybe we're just lucky or maybe some of you think we "settle" when we stay at OKW. All I know is that I never stress about not having the perfect location for my next disney vacation.

Also, we normally stay 2 weeks in a 1BR or 2BR. We don't move on weekends - yes it "costs" us more but this is our yearly vacation. We love having a washer/dryer; don't mind making our own beds; if we run out of towels, we wash them; love having a kitchen for cold drinks & snacks; enjoy being able to hang out in the living rm and play games, watch a movie or talk; love sitting out on the balcony and watching the boats; and the jacuzzi's great.

My real point tho' is that IF you're concerned about having to plan 11 months in advance - don't! If you're a bit flexible, you'll find plenty of rooms and have a wonderful vacation.