You must be swift as the coursing river (as long as it's the Lazy River) - comments welcome

[NYC_MW]

Crossing fingers, toes, and everything in between for full recovery (and non-head explosions) in the next week!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Thanks for sharing. That's certainly disappointing from my perspective, but I appreciate hearing about your experience.

I think for me, if I can't race the marathon I'm not going to run it. I did my "just finish" marathon at Disney, and the point of this one was to see how fast I can go. I could still do the half easy, but even "easy" marathon recovery takes so long, not to mention trying to recover from the Achilles strain, that it doesn't seem worth it to do it "for fun".

On the bright side, the way the course works, I can make that call any time up to mile 13.1, so if I do have issues, I will just jog/walk it in at the half. The only thing on my schedule after this is MW half/PW challenge, which I don't feel the need to race and could even walk if I had to, so I have plenty of time for recovery afterwards. So far all the medical professionals have indicated running the marathon is okay, so that's my plan for now.

Okay, I kept thinking about this, and I'll add that I'd start out not planning to race the marathon if a) the medical people tell me I shouldn't, or b) it seems like the break from running will have a large effect on my fitness that will render seeing how fast I can run significantly less effective (hoping to mitigate some of this with cross-training but we'll see). Whether I do the half if I know beforehand I'm not running the marathon is still up in the air.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I know there’s a chart (Daniels maybe) somewhere that shows that you lose like 1-3% of your fitness if you do nothing for 2 weeks.
Chart here.

I messed up my ankle 2 weeks before my first half and I didn’t run at all until race day. I don’t think it really affected my performance in comparing that time with the other half I ran for time.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I know there’s a chart (Daniels maybe) somewhere that shows that you lose like 1-3% of your fitness if you do nothing for 2 weeks.
Chart here.

Interesting. (Side note, what's up with that photo? Lol) So then the question is, how much does the decrease in VDOT affect marathon performance? And does it matter if you're missing 10 days of the real training vs. 10 days of the taper? (Also, if your head explodes from not doing anything, does that have an additional impact on your fitness? )

 

[flav]

Thanks for sharing. That's certainly disappointing from my perspective, but I appreciate hearing about your experience.

I think for me, if I can't race the marathon I'm not going to run it. I did my "just finish" marathon at Disney, and the point of this one was to see how fast I can go. I could still do the half easy, but even "easy" marathon recovery takes so long, not to mention trying to recover from the Achilles strain, that it doesn't seem worth it to do it "for fun".

On the bright side, the way the course works, I can make that call any time up to mile 13.1, so if I do have issues, I will just jog/walk it in at the half. The only thing on my schedule after this is MW half/PW challenge, which I don't feel the need to race and could even walk if I had to, so I have plenty of time for recovery afterwards. So far all the medical professionals have indicated running the marathon is okay, so that's my plan for now.

Ho, I reread myself and see that I was not very clear. The race that I held back on was a 5k, not the marathon. I will correct my post. Keep hoping and resting.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Ho, I reread myself and see that I was not very clear. The race that I held back on was a 5k, not the marathon. I will correct my post. Keep hoping and resting.

Gotcha! Yeah, I'd have no problem taking anything up to a half marathon super easy. So TBD whether I end up with an easy half or a hard full.

I went in for my second session of soft wave therapy this morning, though, and I have been given permission to try running today! I figure I'll aim for about 5 easy miles to see if I run into problems at the same point as the last couple of runs. I'll post an update afterwards!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Hey @DopeyBadger, got any data on how not running at all for a week and a half affects marathon performances??

I use the same chart @Herding_Cats posted. According to Daniels, you lose 0.3% of VDOT linearly after 5 days off when doing no other aerobic leg exercises as a replacement. You lose 0.015% VDOT when doing aerobic leg exercises (like cycling).



You'll be off for roughly 14 days, which without cycling would be 97.3% of previous and with cycling 98.6%. I'll use a 3:45 runner as an example.

-If you were a 3:45 marathon runner (VDOT of 41.0), and did not cycling replacement then you would be a VDOT of 39.9 or a 3:50:15 runner. So you lose about 5 min of fitness.
-If you were a 3:45 marathon runner (VDOT of 41.0), and did cycling replacement, then you would be a VDOT of 40.4 or a 3:47:45 runner. So you lose about 2.5 min of fitness.

For comparison, if you trained in cold weather, and suddenly your marathon was under T+D 140 conditions, you would go from a 3:45 runner to at least a 3:51:45 runner.

I've used this calculator a few times after taking extended breaks and it has been fairly accurate to assess my fitness upon returning to training.

There's a catch, your VDOT fitness alone would not be the only consideration. Your running training load would too, and more specifically your peaking. While your fitness may be in the 3:47-3:50 area from a 3:45 runner, the bigger issue is that the lack of running in these last two weeks is going to likely cause the loss of peaking. So your fitness may be there, but your ability to race at that fitness level is even less likely there. If this 2 week break occurred 10 weeks prior to the race, it hits different than it being the last 2 weeks before the race itself.

So, the injury not withstanding (which should be a paramount consideration, and try to keep the long term in mind, because I suspect the recovery from a torn achilles is a long term road back vs missing out on this one racing opportunity with years of good running left), your ability to race will be hampered. My own personal example was the 2018 Chicago Marathon. I injured my ankle in July/August 2018 (about 2 months before the race). I raced a HM in mid-August 1:37:35. Started exclusive biking from 8/19 through 9/6 (a little over 2 weeks). Returned to exclusive running 9/13. Raced the Chicago M on 10/7. For my non-Dopey Ms and after starting 6 days per week running, my marathons were usually -2 min to +7 min from predicted. Chicago 2018 was +18 min. So my fitness might have been there, but my ability to race was hampered by the break in running roughly 1 month before my race and having had 3 weeks of running prior to the marathon itself.

Probably not what you want to hear, but the odds aren't in your favor. Doesn't mean you can't do it, just means it's more difficult to predict than if it had never happened.

 

[striker1064]

(Also, if your head explodes from not doing anything, does that have an additional impact on your fitness? )

Listen, much like me and my broken elbow, one does not need a head to run a marathon. Only legs.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Just got back from my 5 miles easy and no Achilles pain! A little sluggish but that's probably to be expected after not running for *counts on fingers* 3 days.

I know that doesn't necessarily mean I'll be fine for a marathon, but at least we're trending in the right direction!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I use the same chart @Herding_Cats posted. According to Daniels, you lose 0.3% of VDOT linearly after 5 days off when doing no other aerobic leg exercises as a replacement. You lose 0.015% VDOT when doing aerobic leg exercises (like cycling).

View attachment 812039

You'll be off for roughly 14 days, which without cycling would be 97.3% of previous and with cycling 98.6%. I'll use a 3:45 runner as an example.

-If you were a 3:45 marathon runner (VDOT of 41.0), and did not cycling replacement then you would be a VDOT of 39.9 or a 3:50:15 runner. So you lose about 5 min of fitness.
-If you were a 3:45 marathon runner (VDOT of 41.0), and did cycling replacement, then you would be a VDOT of 40.4 or a 3:47:45 runner. So you lose about 2.5 min of fitness.

For comparison, if you trained in cold weather, and suddenly your marathon was under T+D 140 conditions, you would go from a 3:45 runner to at least a 3:51:45 runner.

I've used this calculator a few times after taking extended breaks and it has been fairly accurate to assess my fitness upon returning to training.

There's a catch, your VDOT fitness alone would not be the only consideration. Your running training load would too, and more specifically your peaking. While your fitness may be in the 3:47-3:50 area from a 3:45 runner, the bigger issue is that the lack of running in these last two weeks is going to likely cause the loss of peaking. So your fitness may be there, but your ability to race at that fitness level is even less likely there. If this 2 week break occurred 10 weeks prior to the race, it hits different than it being the last 2 weeks before the race itself.

So, the injury not withstanding (which should be a paramount consideration, and try to keep the long term in mind, because I suspect the recovery from a torn achilles is a long term road back vs missing out on this one racing opportunity with years of good running left), your ability to race will be hampered. My own personal example was the 2018 Chicago Marathon. I injured my ankle in July/August 2018 (about 2 months before the race). I raced a HM in mid-August 1:37:35. Started exclusive biking from 8/19 through 9/6 (a little over 2 weeks). Returned to exclusive running 9/13. Raced the Chicago M on 10/7. For my non-Dopey Ms and after starting 6 days per week running, my marathons were usually -2 min to +7 min from predicted. Chicago 2018 was +18 min. So my fitness might have been there, but my ability to race was hampered by the break in running roughly 1 month before my race and having had 3 weeks of running prior to the marathon itself.

Probably not what you want to hear, but the odds aren't in your favor. Doesn't mean you can't do it, just means it's more difficult to predict than if it had never happened.

Thanks for the analysis. I think the VDOT loss is somewhat mitigated by not missing ALL of the running for two weeks, but the loss of peaking does seem like it could be more of a problem as my mileage dropped off much more abruptly than planned.

Injury-wise, I have promised myself that if I have any pain on race day, I will stop running. If I get to the race and don't feel like I can at least try to race the marathon, I'm going to ask if I can switch to just run the south course half because apparently that's the fun one

 

[Scootin'By]

Just got back from my 5 miles easy and no Achilles pain! A little sluggish but that's probably to be expected after not running for *counts on fingers* 3 days.

I know that doesn't necessarily mean I'll be fine for a marathon, but at least we're trending in the right direction!

That's great news!!

And a good plan too. Very smart.

 

[avondale]

I was going to try some aqua jogging afterwards, but it rained all afternoon.

Somehow, this seems to be asking for a joke...

Also, if your head explodes from not doing anything, does that have an additional impact on your fitness?

You will be more aerodynamic!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Injury diaries: Why me?????????????????????????????????????????
In which life is Not Fair

So far so good on the post-running front. No pain today either, and I iced my leg after the run and after walking my dog this morning. I think I will not push it today and try aqua jogging instead of normal running.

I guess I was sort of lucky in that I don't think this strain was particularly serious, and if I weren't signed up for a marathon on Sunday, I probably wouldn't be freaking out about it.

As much.

The timing is pretty crap, though. So, analysis: Why This Happened, and How To Make Sure It Doesn't Happen Again.

Let's go through all the things you are supposed to do to stay healthy and uninjured:
- strength training
- mobility exercises
- dynamic warmup/prehab
- easy runs easy
- recovery (post-run food, foam rolling or massage or stretching or whatever, rest days, cutback weeks, etc.)
- gradual buildup of miles
- 80/20 training

Look, universe, I already do all of those things!! Not cool. Very not cool.

The best explanation I can come up with is that this marathon cycle was tough. Definitely more than I've ever done before. I don't think I got to the point of overtraining; the other symptoms I found are things like decreased performance in training, fatigue, insomnia, spikes in resting heart rate, etc., and I don't have any of those. If you'd asked me before the strain, I would have said training was going really well. However, I guess the cumulative load could have been enough to cause a slight injury after 14 weeks.

Besides that, I also learned that carbon-plated shoes can stress your calves, and I wore my Endorphin Pro 3s for that last big workout. So maybe that contributed also, and maybe it's actually not helpful to train in your carbon plates, at least for longer workouts.

But that doesn't leave me with a whole lot to go on. Maybe being a little more conservative with training. Maybe not putting two high-duration workouts in the same week which is also your peak mileage week ever. Maybe trying a 3-week taper, or a slightly shorter plan. Maybe not wearing carbon plates in peak training. It's all sort of unsatisfyingly unclear. If you have other ideas, feel free to stick them in the comments.

That wasn't a very good conclusion, so here is a picture of a silly puppy.

My dog flopped over on his back in the middle of the rug

 

[avondale]

Sometimes s$$t just happens. It's good to analyze it to see if you did something to lead up to it, but it doesn't look like you did. You could've just tripped over a crack like @striker1064 , but at least you didn't do that.

 

[striker1064]

I think sometimes it's possible to simply step wrong and tweak something? Or maybe step wrong a few times, but you've done it so much it doesn't feel weird at all and the cumulative load causes an injury? It's so hard to say. You can do everything right, as you've done, and it still happens.

You could've just tripped over a crack

Or that. I don't recommend this course of action!

 

[jmasgat]

So, analysis: Why This Happened, and How To Make Sure It Doesn't Happen Again.

In which: If you solve this, you win the Nobel Prize for Running Injuries (Yeah, I don't think he funded that one)

As a former engineer, I always want to root cause the problem. Suffice to say, it never seems to work and/or there is always a new and exciting injury that comes along to take its place. I always say (to myself, because who else wants to hear it) that if I did every single PT exercise I've ever been given to address all the things that have ever gone wrong with running.....I would never have time to actually run, so gee, maybe PT does work.

Also, dog pics are great.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

November 20 - 25, 2023
Marathon training week 16 | T-minus 15 hours until Space Coast Marathon
In which, ready or not, here it comes

Scheduled
Ha! We've given up on the schedule.

Actual
Monday
Easy: 5.22 miles, 54:45 (10:28), max HR 158, avg. 149, 100% Z1-2

Finally allowed to run again and no Achilles pain! A little sluggish but that's not so surprising. Came back and iced the Achilles just in case.

Tuesday
Bodyweight lower body strength/Pilates

Plus eccentric calf raises

Aqua jogging: 40 min, max HR 154, avg. 136, 100% Z1-2

I wasn't sure how to go about this, but it turned out that I was making it out to be more complicated than it actually was. It was pretty boring but did have some advantages, in particular the ability to "run" when it was 80º and sunny and still feel cool.

Since I hadn't been running fast, I tried some "strides" at the end. None of it seemed hard while I was doing it, but the second I got out of the pool I felt all jello-y and STARVING. It was pretty funny. So heads up for anyone who wants to try aqua jogging: once the buoyancy goes away, you will suddenly be much more tired than you thought you were

Wednesday
Easy: 5.12 miles, 53:37 (10:28), max HR 159, avg. 150, 100% Z1-2

In the morning, I had another soft wave treatment along with my one and only Graston. It must be a little variable, because it didn't hurt nearly as much as @Herding_Cats's did, and I was only a little achy afterwards. Maybe they went easy on me since I had a marathon in a few days The soft wave also hurt less than the previous treatments, which is apparently a good sign.

I felt a couple of twinges about halfway through the run that may or may not have been my imagination. It also felt harder than I would have expected, although some of that was probably due to running in the middle of the afternoon. Heel was a little sore afterwards but I think that was mostly from the Graston/soft wave.

core

Thursday
MP check-in: 2 mile WU + 2.5 miles of 3 min @ M effort/3 min easy + CD
Split paces: 8:28, 8:35, 8:54, 8:50
Total: 5.28 miles, 49:20, max HR 164, avg. 149


Strava workout analysis chart

Happy with this. It felt much more like I want to feel three days before a marathon. I had a tentative plan but wasn't sure how my Achilles would do running two days in a row - haven't done that since last Tuesday. Luckily, after my two-mile warmup, I felt great, so I went ahead and did the 3-min on/3 off at marathon effort. I didn't completely ignore my watch since I had to keep track of time (I hadn't programmed the workout in because I wasn't sure I would actually do it), but I tried not to let my pace change based on what I saw. I'd probably chalk the first two intervals up to getting too excited about my second day in a row of running pain-free, but even looking just at the last two, I would not be mad at all about an 8:50-ish pace (3:51:30) for the actual marathon!

Then I enjoyed a delicious Thanksgiving dinner. Happy Turkey Day!

Friday
off

Saturday
Shakeout: 2.3 miles, 23:48 (10:19), max HR 165, avg. 146, 99% Z1-2

Easy figure-eight around the neighborhood with two relaxed strides. I haven't had any pain all week, but I was being extra-paranoid so kept it to two instead of the usual 4-6.

Sunday
Space Coast Marathon?!

Totals
Running: 17.94 miles, 3h 1m
Aqua jogging: 40m
Strength/mobility: 28m
Total: 4h 10m


Weekly training log

I actually got fairly close to what I had scheduled, especially if you count the aqua jogging as kind of running. (Having tried it, I wouldn't say it fully qualifies, but it's better than nothing.) Certainly better than last week. And no pain in any of my runs!

Coming up
One marathon, I hope! I'll post a pre-race update later this afternoon.

 

[nancipants]

Good luck!! I hope the pain stays away and you have a great race. And hope the weather continues to be cooler in the morning!

 

[avondale]

Good luck! The treatment for your Achilles sounds near-miraculous. Fingers crossed for cool weather for you!

 

[GollyGadget]

Best of luck!