Yes, I understand the risks of banking, but this change of plans was not our fault.

[dismedvc]

You are still missing the point (or perhaps just ignoring it). Read post#10 upthread.
You obviously have a completely different view on this and that's your right, I supposed.

Not sure why you added "I supposed."
Since you referred me to one of your posts (#10, in this thread, which I had read and now reread, I will refer you to one of my posts on a different thread, where I was replying to a different member of these boards.

ETA: There is a saying that when two people have exactly the same opinion, one of them is unnecessary to the conversation.
Although I may sometimes disagree with you, I thank you, and your sometimes different opinions for being necessary to the conversation, and also for being cordial in allowing me do the same.

 

[Sandisw]

Due to the timing, February and March UYs are coming out ahead. (Any banked points from their 2018 UY had to be used before the 1st or 2nd month of 2020, which was before the parks closed. They used their 2019 points before the 1st or 2nd month of 2020, or banked them. Their 2020 points are good through the 1st or 2nd month of 2021 so they have a long window to either use them or bank them. If they borrowed points from their 2022 UY those have now been returned, and those of us with other UYs (many of who will "lose points" if nothing else is done) will have to compete against those returned borrowed points in the future)

Whatever, Disney/DVCM decides to do, I think they need to share the pain across all UYs and avoid having members with certain UYs avoid almost any pain, while members with other UYs bear the bulk of the pain.

ETA: I think it would be unfair if members who happen to have February or March UYs do not to bear a proportional share of the pain in whatever solution Disney/DVC comes up with just because they happen to have been assigned, or chose to have those particular UYs

I went to the link you posted. I was shocked that almost 50% (47.2% to be exact) of the points at BLT (where we own with an August UY) are in the February and March UYs.
View attachment 487017

I get what you are saying, but there are only certain things that can be done to share the burden,

Devils advocate....why should an owner who decided to use banked points in March with an April UY, when they had only 2 weeks left on them before they expire, get anything more than 2 weeks to use those points?

Why should they be entitled to getting them moved forward an entire year...if even possible.?

Why should those who travel at the beginning of the UY to minimize their risk be forced to share the same level of pain as those who started out in a position of risk?

I agree that if DVCM can find a way to absorb the lost points in a way that benefits the membership and the future of system, then wonderful,

But, if in the end, some points are lost, then they are,

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

Whatever, Disney/DVCM decides to do, I think they need to share the pain across all UYs and avoid having members with certain UYs avoid almost any pain, while members with other UYs bear the bulk of the pain.

ETA: I think it would be unfair if members who happen to have February or March UYs do not to bear a proportional share of the pain in whatever solution Disney/DVC comes up with just because they happen to have been assigned, or chose to have those particular UYs

I have to be honest, I completely disagree. Many of the people who are losing points are traveling in the last 4 months of their use year. Many also are using banked points from 2018 or 2019 and now want them to be bankable for another full year. I 100% appreciate that this is a once in a 100 year event. But anyone who really understands the DVC system knows the associated risks involved with traveling in the last 4 months or banking/borrowing several years worth of points together.

I really do hope that DVC can do something to help affected owners out. But as someone who has owned since 2009 with a September UY and booked 100% of his vacations from September thru April, I don't really want to have to subsidize people who booked in more risky situations. I understand people's vacation habits change. But maybe that proves a 50 year timeshare with set UYs aren't a perfect fit for everyone.

 

[CastAStone]

I have to be honest, I completely disagree. Many of the people who are losing points are traveling in the last 4 months of their use year. Many also are using banked points from 2018 or 2019 and now want them to be bankable for another full year. I 100% appreciate that this is a once in a 100 year event. But anyone who really understands the DVC system knows the associated risks involved with traveling in the last 4 months or banking/borrowing several years worth of points together.

I really do hope that DVC can do something to help affected owners out. But as someone who has owned since 2009 with a September UY and booked 100% of his vacations from September thru April, I don't really want to have to subsidize people who booked in more risky situations. I understand people's vacation habits change. But maybe that proves a 50 year timeshare with set UYs aren't a perfect fit for everyone.

You’re talking about people losing their banked points. But something will need to be done about the much, much larger issue of people banking a ton of 19 and 20 points now because the parks are closed. That will create a points glut that will break the system. The solution to that will almost certainly be shared pain for all DVC owners. That’s how shared ownership works. Ask any Disney stock holder.

 

[Sandisw]

You’re talking about people losing their banked points. But something will need to be done about the much, much larger issue of people banking a ton of 19 and 20 points now because the parks are closed. That will create a points glut that will break the system. The solution to that will almost certainly be shared pain for all DVC owners. That’s how shared ownership works. Ask any Disney stock holder.

I agree that this is both a short term and long term problem. Moving the borrowed points back helped in the short term...its Effect in the long term is not yet known.

The extra banking that is now going on will also impact long term and will have to be dealt with. But, this could be why DVCM has taken a hard line on the late banking because they already know that current members who can still bank are doing so outside normal patterns,

No easy fix when you are dealing with at least half of the UYs.

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

You’re talking about people losing their banked points. But something will need to be done about the much, much larger issue of people banking a ton of 19 and 20 points now because the parks are closed. That will create a points glut that will break the system. The solution to that will almost certainly be shared pain for all DVC owners. That’s how shared ownership works. Ask any Disney stock holder.

Right, I was talking about people who are losing their banked points....or who did not bank their 2019 points and now cannot because they missed their window. I was saying I did not want to subsidize those people.

Now the situation you refer to, where a higher than normal percentage of people will bank their current points forward I agree will cause a several year strain on the system. My suggestion would be to book 2021 reservations sooner rather than later and make sure they are booked in the part of your use year that can be canceled and still banked. It's the only type of "free" trip insurance DVC members have. And who knows, the resorts could be closed for 12 months and we all will fee the pain. But assuming they won't be, informed owners can definitely put themselves in the best position to use their points with the least amount of risk.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I am on board and in the same boat. To put context to this recall the band on the titanic. After the sinking the cruise company retrieved bodies. Rich bodies were returned to families for what was the equivalent of 'good will'. Poor customers were buried in a mass grave unless expenses and overhead were paid to compensate for the cost of recovery. The poor band members were not employees and had no protection. The were independent contracts and got mass graved or were ransomed.

Today there are 3 groups of owners related to C19. Disney is not going to react like the cruise company. they will do something if only for the PR. they didn't need to pay people and still pay people when they are closed. They did not need to return borrowed points. But it made sense, if you look at why they were doing it helps all three groups of dvc owners; banked, borrowed or current and/or combos thereof.

A view without nuance says 'return everyone back to their use year or return nobody'. The lack of thought here should be evident. Banked points and borrowed points are entirely different. there is just no reason they should be treated the same and no reason to knee jerk a response. The pain of people who had banked points returned to the former use year is also evident. it is not a work out it is a termination and would make the entire crisis easier on everyone else. Disney did not do that and I am not in that boat but I appreciate they did not just hammer those people. Instead they are offering alternate uses and attempting to clear rooms taken with borrowed points this summer.

there is purpose here and it is not to screw banked point owners

There have been so many similar posts on here. I read thru them and get both depressed and defensive. When we bought in to DVC, our WDW vacation month of choice was Sept. However, at that time, our oldest grandchild was only 7 yrs old. Now that our grandchildren are in college and high school, we can no longer travel in Sept due to school sports, all of the different school schedules, after school jobs, etc. So we've had to switch to summer vacations, which require more points than Sept. At the same time, we also need larger accommodations due to the larger number of grandchildren. That also requires more points.

With all of these extra points needed, we now have to bank and borrow. So yes, we do have to travel in the last 4 months of our UY. This Memorial week-end 2020 trip was planned a couple of years ago, and points were banked to make it happen. Our ideal villas were booked, good FP's made, airfare purchased, etc. Christmas gifts involved premium MagicBands, Disney gift cards, Disney shirts, etc.

Then along comes Covid 19. Part of the family is adamant about keeping our plans intact, while the other half is thinking this trip won't happen. We all want this trip to play out just like we planned. So what do we do? We've missed one banking deadline already for an add-on membership, and now our next banking deadline is coming up on April 30th. That membership holds the majority of points. But will we know for sure by April 30th that the parks won't be open? Our fear is that we will cancel and then find out later that WDW opens by Memorial Day and our trip would have happened.

I know there are rules about banking. I know there are rules about borrowing. I know there are rules about vacation club procedures. But I want DVC to come up with a plan to help us out. I would like our April 30th deadline pushed back so I know for sure whether or not a May 24th trip will happen or not. If this trip doesn't happen, I would like future use of all of our points that we stand to lose because of no fault of our own. If we can't use all of our points with DVC, then I would like to be able to use them with other WDW resorts. If we don't get our points back, we've not only lost a great deal of money, but we won't be able to have our next WDW trip for another 2-3 years while we build the points back up again.

We've prepaid for our Disney vacations by paying our yearly MF's. We've invested in Disney with our loyalty as well as our wallet. We're asking Disney to make an exception here and give DVC the same 7 day cancellation, full refund (points), that cash customers are receiving during this pandemic.

Yes, we all know the rules, but during this pandemic, exceptions should be made. Disney is a big company. Disney has the means to make this happen.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

But assuming they won't be, informed owners can definitely put themselves in the best position to use their points with the least amount of risk.

This is our strategy. If things haven't improved enough, we'll cancel our October trip. Those points are good until August of 2021 and can be banked next April to extend them until August of 2022.

We have about 40 points banked into our 2020 UY. Those will expire in August of 2021 regardless, but I'm optimistic that we'll be able to use 40ish points in the next 16 months, even if WDW is closed, maybe HHI would be an option.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

Due to the timing, February and March UYs are coming out ahead. (Any banked points from their 2018 UY had to be used before the 1st or 2nd month of 2020, which was before the parks closed. They used their 2019 points before the 1st or 2nd month of 2020, or banked them. Their 2020 points are good through the 1st or 2nd month of 2021 so they have a long window to either use them or bank them. If they borrowed points from their 2022 UY those have now been returned, and those of us with other UYs (many of whom will "lose points") will have to compete against those returned borrowed points in the future)

Whatever, Disney/DVCM decides to do, I think they need to share the pain across all UYs and avoid having members with certain UYs avoid almost any pain, while members with other UYs bear the bulk of the pain.

ETA: I think most of us who bought direct did not have a choice in what UY we were assigned. It was whatever UY DVC was selling at the time we purchased. That is why I think it would be unfair if members who happen to have February or March UYs (for the most part through random chance) do not to bear a proportional share of the pain in whatever solution Disney/DVC comes up with.

I went to the link you posted. I was shocked that almost 50% (47.2% to be exact) of the points at BLT (where we own with an August UY) are in the February and March UYs.
View attachment 487017

Obviously unknowable, which is why my main point was that whatever solution Disney/DVCM comes up with it should have all members from all UYs share the pain.

Why does a solution have to be painful at all?
Alter the 7 month point charts so u pay a premium to "swap out" for a bit. Change the Disney collection point charts for a bit and wave the fee. If I can get a room at resort X over a studio at Resort x-villas for the same points...I'd do it to help the cause. Make it one point cheaper and throw on a few fast passes and ill run for it! I'm pretty confident they are going to have empty hotel rooms for quite a while.

 

[Sandisw]

Why does a solution have to be painful at all?
Alter the 7 month point charts so u pay a premium to "swap out" for a bit. Change the Disney collection point charts for a bit and wave the fee. If I can get a room at resort X over a studio at Resort x-villas for the same points...I'd do it to help the cause. Make it one point cheaper and throw on a few fast passes and ill run for it! I'm pretty confident they are going to have empty hotel rooms for quite a while.

They may be able to figure it out but remember, points bought after 2011 cant use the Disney Collection. Can they legally change that part of the program for some points and not others? I don’t know but I’d be surprised if they could

The 7 month chart is a good one, but takes time. There is still the issue if they can allow double banking.

Again, that involve rooms at Disney hotels involves changing the terms of those trades which is currently, turning over a DVC room to them. Realistically, that won’t be easy.

So far, DVCM has done things within their authority and giving options that will help at least for now....including taking advance of RCI. May not be the best, but it Is an option for June UY and beyond.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

They may be able to figure it out but remember, points bought after 2011 cant use the Disney Collection. Can they legally change that part of the program for some points and not others? I don’t know but I’d be surprised if they could

The 7 month chart is a good one, but takes time. There is still the issue if they can allow double banking.

Again, that involve rooms at Disney hotels involves changing the terms of those trades which is currently, turning over a DVC room to them. Realistically, that won’t be easy.

So far, DVCM has done things within their authority and giving options that will help at least for now....including taking advance of RCI. May not be the best, but it Is an option for June UY and beyond.

Perhaps they can temporarily rescind the Disney Collection restrictions for all points. That would result in those restrictions being reinstituted once we've gotten past the point surplus, while providing temporary flexibility for more efficiently balancing the points. For every resale owner that they allow to use their points for Disney Collection (presumably for a room that would have gone empty), that frees up availability at DVC resorts for other direct and resale purchasers alike.

 

[Sandisw]

Perhaps they can temporarily rescind the Disney Collection restrictions for all points. That would result in those restrictions being reinstituted once we've gotten past the point surplus, while providing temporary flexibility for more efficiently balancing the points. For every resale owner that they allow to use their points for Disney Collection (presumably for a room that would have gone empty), that frees up availability at DVC resorts for other direct and resale purchasers alike.

They could, but, those were put in place to distinguish resale from direct points. All of a sudden, you have just, even if temporary, take one more selling point away.

Given the effect this shut down will have on sales, I think it might be a hard one. Now, they do have Their own points used for OTU, so they could allow those with expiring points to have access to those for Disney collection, and then it wouldn’t have to change anything,

i am sure so do they are thinking of all these options, and following every scenarios domino effect.

 

[starry_solo]

Do they have to allow OTU points? Perhaps they will suspend both banking and borrowing for a year or two to get over this

 

[TraderSamWDW]

They may be able to figure it out but remember, points bought after 2011 cant use the Disney Collection. Can they legally change that part of the program for some points and not others? I don’t know but I’d be surprised if could

Is the disney collection part of the contract?
Im sure the point charts arent written in stone.

The other thing is we will never really know how bad the surplus is.
I have 2 contracts for 2 trips a year. If I have to cancel both and bank both, Im not now going 4 times next year. Im probably still going twice and banking points again. not everyone is going to double their trips in one year. some may, others wont.

 

[Sandisw]

Is the disney collection part of the contract?
Im sure the point charts arent written in stone.

The other thing is we will never really know how bad the surplus is.
I have 2 contracts for 2 trips a year. If I have to cancel both and bank both, Im not now going 4 times next year. Im probably still going twice and banking points again. not everyone is going to double their trips in one year. some may, others wont.

The Disney collection point charts are negotiated with Disney based on rates, That is why they dont stay the same but never go down, So, again, any changes to them would need to be a deal between DVCM and Disney.

Current program is that for every trade, DVCM sends a villa to Disney to pay for the trade, So, to include more hotel rooms, without having to give up a villa is not something DVCM can just do,

Anything outside the use of DVC villas requires support from Disney and like I said, not all owners have points that are eligible to book the Disney hotels.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

The Disney collection point charts are negotiated with Disney based on rates, That is why they dont stay the same but never go down, So, again, any changes to them would need to be a deal between DVCM and Disney.

Current program is that for every trade, DVCM sends a villa to Disney to pay for the trade, So, to include more hotel rooms, without having to give up a villa is not something DVCM can just do,

Anything outside the use of DVC villas requires support from Disney and like I said, not all owners have points that are eligible to book the Disney hotels.

Is the Disney collection part of the contract or is it a 'perk'?

 

[Sandisw]

Is the Disney collection part of the contract or is it a 'perk'?

It’s a perk...that is why resale points could be excluded from them.

 

[Sandisw]

Do they have to allow OTU points? Perhaps they will suspend both banking and borrowing for a year or two to get over this

No, they could suspend that program.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

It’s a perk...that is why resale points could be excluded from them.

I realize it is a negotiation between business units of Disney, but there is no reason they can not lower the point totals.
Im not saying its something done over night, but it can be done.
And not everyone has points to stay at disney hotels....so what? They are excluded from this perk. The fact that they change the point chart is irrelevant.

 

[Sandisw]

I realize it is a negotiation between business units of Disney, but there is no reason they can not lower the point totals.
Im not saying its something done over night, but it can be done.
And not everyone has points to stay at disney hotels....so what? They are excluded from this perk. The fact that they change the point chart is irrelevant.

The point is that the charts can be changed as long as Disney agrees to it, which means Disney has to take the financial hit. DVCM can’t just do it on their own.

Every owner who trades out of DVC to use the Disney hotel takes the DVC room with it. It is not allowed “for free”. So, lowering the point charts does nothing unless a deal is struck with Disney to not give them a DVC villa to book for cash. Cheaper point charts wont help unless Disney also agrees to not take a DVC room,

If someone is losing points not eligible for the Disney Collection, then any plan to make those rooms more affordable does that owner no good because it’s dependent on another owner with qualified points to want to trade,

And, the way it works now is points traded to the Disney collection can never be used again for DVC villa as they are now reservarion points,

So, the use of the Disney collection as a fix is a very compliated situation that, even if DVCM thinks it cohld work, requires a lot of changes to not only the current program but also to Disneys financial benefit for allowing the trades.