WTH Mel??

[Saxsoon]

anti defamation league

Thanks Morgan, that was an interesting link. I like this group, no one deserves to live in fear of those people.

 

[MorganLeFey]

Naivety? I see we are back to saying there is something wrong with everybody who doesn't agree.

Adults who do bad things because of what a celebrity says is somebody you already needed to be worried about. It's the Hollywood version of hearing voices.

If a child hears what Mel said, and asks his parents for an explanation, and comes out of it with the understanding people are looking from Mel, do the parents get credit for the outcome? If yes, why does it only work one way?

Anything that affects kids IMO is on the adults. It's no different then letting them listen to an athlete that ends up being one that took drugs. If the kid then starts taking drugs, no way do I agree with anybody but the parents being responsible for the long term outcome.

It works both ways IMO.

in the real world, cardaway, kids form opinions about the world from many sources. ever hear of teenage rebellion?

I've got two teenagers. I have tried to instill my values in them, but mine is not the only voice they hear.

example:

my 15 year old took biology last year. she had a homeowrk assignment on stem cell research. the teacher asked them to state their opinions. I was very surprised ot read that she disagrees with me on the issue.

as a parent you do your best to teach yor children, and you hope that they absorb the lessons...and don't follow some fad becausethey want to emulate their favorite celebrity.

 

[cardaway]

in the real world

Why add that? I'm certainly not giving that kind of treatment to anybody on this thread.

 

[MorganLeFey]

Why add that? I'm certainly not giving that kind of treatment to anybody on this thread.

you made a very strong statement that the parents get the credit or the blame, and that what a celebrity says has no bearing on what the child does...

 

[Saxsoon]

my 15 year old took biology last year. she had a homeowrk assignment on stem cell research. the teacher asked them to state their opinions. I was very surprised ot read that she disagrees with me on the issue.

If it is not too personal, what are your views? Just curious.


I agree, that it is not solely the parent who gives the framework of the child. They help, but are certaintly not the only ones.

 

[MorganLeFey]

If it is not too personal, what are your views? Just curious.


I agree, that it is not solely the parent who gives the framework of the child. They help, but are certaintly not the only ones.

it's very much off topic, but... I support stem cell research. Jen is very tender hearted and has bought into the argument that stem cell research inolves "killing babies", which she could never do.

 

[poohandwendy]

Ok, so what are we saying now?...that there are some kids out there teetering on the edge of bigotry and/or hate crimes against Jews...and those same freaks are just waiting for the 'influence' of a celebrity to take the plunge? And that if Mel Gibson hadn't opened his mouth, these same kids would not be bigots or commit whatever hate crimes?

Oh come on.

Just a suggestion, if we...as ADULTS, don't want our kids buying into the idea that celebrities are powerful and worthy of following...perhaps we should begin with ourselves.

(prepared for the flames, as always)

 

[Planogirl]

Ok, so what are we saying now?...that there are some kids out there teetering on the edge of bigotry and/or hate crimes against Jews...and those same freaks are just waiting for the 'influence' of a celebrity to take the plunge? And that if Mel Gibson hadn't opened his mouth, these same kids would not be bigots or commit whatever hate crimes?

Oh come on.

Just a suggestion, if we...as ADULTS, don't want our kids buying into the idea that celebrities are powerful and worthy of following...perhaps we should begin with ourselves.

(prepared for the flames, as always)

I agree. Just look at how much attention even disliked celebrities get on this very board. People are so curious about Britney and Tom and all of the rest so adults are guilty of paying a lot of attention to celebrities themselves.

 

[poohandwendy]

in the real world, cardaway, kids form opinions about the world from many sources. ever hear of teenage rebellion?

I've got two teenagers. I have tried to instill my values in them, but mine is not the only voice they hear.

example:

my 15 year old took biology last year. she had a homeowrk assignment on stem cell research. the teacher asked them to state their opinions. I was very surprised ot read that she disagrees with me on the issue.

as a parent you do your best to teach yor children, and you hope that they absorb the lessons...and don't follow some fad becausethey want to emulate their favorite celebrity.

Are you saying that your DD could not have come up with that dissenting opinion on her own? Or that her opinion is 'teenage rebellion'? Is your stance based on someone elses opinion or a fad, or is it your own?

 

[lowie]

There is a big difference between criticizing actions of the Catholic Church as an institution and the pope as its leader, and making statements like Mel did about "the Jews." Donohue tries to make them equivalent, but they are not (just as criticizing actions of the Israeli government does not equal anti-Semiticism).

maybe to you there is a big difference, but maybe you did not grow up always having to defend your religion and dealing with predjudice. honestly your statement made me throw up a little in my mouth

 

[Marie17]

Citing the Catholic League is hateful, especially on these issues, since Donahue was extremely anti-Semitic in addressing Mel's movie

There were also several Rabbis that came out and stated that the movie was not anti-semitic too.

Citing the Catholic League coming out is "hateful" where as the Anti-Defamation League coming out against it is not? BOTH groups have said that the apologies seem contrite and that he is looking for help. Heck, he's even been invited to speak at a major event It seems that the groups that stand up in the fight for "religious freedom" and the "discrimination" of their groups are more forgiving towards Mel than some of the people in this board.

 

[Marie17]

There is a big difference between criticizing actions of the Catholic Church as an institution and the pope as its leader, and making statements like Mel did about "the Jews." Donohue tries to make them equivalent, but they are not (just as criticizing actions of the Israeli government does not equal anti-Semiticism).

I guess what you are saying is that it is okay to criticize Catholics?

I personally believe that the only two religions that are allowed to be defiled and defamed and discrimated against are Judaism and Catholicism. Some people will be all upset if the criticism is highly publicized as such as it is in this case with Mel (being some sort of form of some type of Catholic - I don't know which kind as it is not mine) and anti-semitic remarks. Makes for perfect media-hype.

I think if everyone who likes to criticize what a religion claims then they should be willing to actually see if they know what that religion preaches. It makes my blood boil to hear what some people believe my church "teaches" according to other people. There is a famous saying that I love to use by Archibishop Fulton Sheen ... "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church - which is, of course, quite a different thing. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do." This was stated a very long time ago sometime in the 50's I believe and it is still pretty true to this day.

 

[DancingBear]

Oh, please.

Guys driving down the street hollar at a priest, "Bugger any boys lately?"

Child protection activist on a news discussion program says, "The Catholic Church mishandled child sexual abuse allegations against priests."

There's a difference. The Church, among other things, is a huge bureaucratic institution, and a nation. Criticism of actions of the institution (as many Catholics do themselves) is not slander of Catholics or Catholicism.

Here's an example of something Donohue thinks are slurs:

ANOTHER SLUR ON CATHOLIC EDUCATION

...In the latest edition of the publication, there is a piece by Ronald Lieber that discusses, rather anecdotally, the educational experiences of Daniel Zemans...We also learn that when Dan graduated from a Catholic school in Chicago, "he felt beaten down by the repressive atmosphere."

So Dan expressing his personal feelings about his particular Catholic school experience is a slur?

There are many things Donohue objects to which I agree are objectionable, but he loses credibility when he overreaches like this.

BTW, my wife is a Catholic.

 

[DancingBear]

I guess what you are saying is that it is okay to criticize Catholics?

Not sure what you mean by that, exactly. If you mean is it okay to criticize individual Catholics for being Catholic, no. I don't think it would be right for Jerry Seinfeld to scream "Idolater!" at a Catholic cop.

If you mean is it okay to criticize certain policies and practices of the Church (like moving pedophile priests from place to place), yes.

Do you think it would be slur, for example, to say that the Church's teachings regarding the use of birth control contribute to overpopulation problems in certain third-world countries?

I personally believe that the only two religions that are allowed to be defiled and defamed and discrimated against are Judaism and Catholicism.

I guess you haven't heard anyone say anything bad about Islam lately.

Is is a slur to say that criticize certain factions of Islam for their promotion of violence against non-Muslims? (Or other Muslims, for that matter)

 

[goofygirl]

Even though he apologized, this leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I don't care to see any of his films anytime soon.

They say alcohol is like "truth serum"- true feelings come out after having a few. I think Mel has really deep issues when it comes to the Jews. Some Jewish person must have done him wrong sometime in his life.

Besides, why was he out drinking anyway? Young women in the club started hanging out with him there too. Why wasn't he home with his wife and kids? Hell, even if his wife and kids were away he shouldn't be acting like this.

And thank god he didn't kill anyone while driving drunk!

As for the idea about celebs being role models to kids, etc. - its the parents responsibility to steer their kids in the direction of who they should or shouldn't admire. I think celebs should be admired for their skill of acting, playing ball, singing, whatever- but they are NOT people to model your life after.
In my teens I had several posters up in my room of rock stars and my mom told me, " Enjoy their music but don't put these people on a pedestal, because for all you know they can be the scum of the earth." And that is true.

 

[Marie17]

Not sure what you mean by that, exactly. If you mean is it okay to criticize individual Catholics for being Catholic, no. I don't think it would be right for Jerry Seinfeld to scream "Idolater!" at a Catholic cop.

If you mean is it okay to criticize certain policies and practices of the Church (like moving pedophile priests from place to place), yes.

Do you think it would be slur, for example, to say that the Church's teachings regarding the use of birth control contribute to overpopulation problems in certain third-world countries?

I guess you haven't heard anyone say anything bad about Islam lately.

Is is a slur to say that criticize certain factions of Islam for their promotion of violence against non-Muslims? (Or other Muslims, for that matter)

I think it is very UNFAIR for anyone to be criticized and discriminated against without knowing what that religion TEACHES! Catholicism does not teach it is okay to move pedophile priests and the use of unnatural birth-control does not mean that NO NATURAL birth-control can be used - a little bit of a difference (say self-control).

Heard lots of stuff on the news regarding Islam. I personally have never studied it (studied others but not that one) but from what I understand it is a peaceful religion.

 

[Marie17]

They say alcohol is like "truth serum"- true feelings come out after having a few. I think Mel has really deep issues when it comes to the Jews. Some Jewish person must have done him wrong sometime in his life.

Besides, why was he out drinking anyway? Young women in the club started hanging out with him there too. Why wasn't he home with his wife and kids? Hell, even if his wife and kids were away he shouldn't be acting like this.
.

He made lots of mistakes that evening. I feel for his wife and children who will have to live with this for the rest of their lives. By the time we all forget, they will have to remember it in their minds for a very long time (most probably the rest of their life) so I feel for them and pray that their minds and hearts will be at ease one day.

 

[sodaseller]

There were also several Rabbis that came out and stated that the movie was not anti-semitic too.

Citing the Catholic League coming out is "hateful" where as the Anti-Defamation League coming out against it is not? BOTH groups have said that the apologies seem contrite and that he is looking for help. Heck, he's even been invited to speak at a major event It seems that the groups that stand up in the fight for "religious freedom" and the "discrimination" of their groups are more forgiving towards Mel than some of the people in this board.

If Mel has truly changed his heart and is remorseful not just that he was caught but for the harm and hurt his antisemitism has caused, not just that night but to the extent it has permeated his worldview over the years, then good for him.

But one person who enabled Gibson's anti-Semitism and who has not been contrite is Bill Donahue. He doesn't forgive Mel his wrongs, he excuses them. He regrets that Mel's rant exposes the falsity of his protestations two years ago when others saw exactly what Mel felt and the harm it could cause.

Bill Donahue is a defender of his personal worldview, not Catholicism and certainly not the values of the Man/God he claims to stand for. Heck, Mel's a sedevacantist, not even in Communion with the Church.

 

[MorganLeFey]

Are you saying that your DD could not have come up with that dissenting opinion on her own? Or that her opinion is 'teenage rebellion'? Is your stance based on someone elses opinion or a fad, or is it your own?

no, what I am saying is that others have influence on my daughter and that she came by her opinion from something other than what I taught her. with the stem cell research thing, both sides of the issue were thoroughly discussed in class, and Jen never asked me my opinion.

I do not worship celebrities, but nevertheless they hold sway over both of my daughters -- mostly on superficial things such as fashion and music.

many people in my generation formed their political opinions, in part, because of what rock stars had to say. would the anti war protests of the Vietnam era have been the same without the rock subculture embracing an anti war stance?

do I think we're going to see a rash of teens committing anti-Semitic acts just because gibson mouthed off? probably not. but do I think that a kid who is prone to vandalism might choose to draw swastikas instead of his usual four-letter-word grafitti on the side of the school building? yeah, it's likely to happen.

 

[Marie17]

And citing the Catholic League and the Anti-Defamation League ... These two groups (one regarding Catholicism - one regarding Judaism - I think both are individual supporter and not official spokesmen) have come together regarding the "forgiveness" aspect of this entire Mel situation. It just strikes me as a little ironic if they both can seem to understand that the first thing that is asked of either follower of their religion is forgiveness first. If forgiveness is asked then one does acknowledge that a wrong has been done. If it is not contrite - then that is not a matter for me to decide as I have no inside peek into a soul.

What type of "Catholic" Mel is - I have no idea as I said so earlier - but I think that the form he follows is not Roman Catholicism (meaning the teachings and acknowledging the Pope). As in all religions, there is a various groups who claim what their religion means. Some are more radical than others, some are more conservative, some are so far off the beaten path it is unebelievable ... but I still believe that to find out what a religion teaches you need to look at the "tree or the core or the doctrine" and not the branches. And to state that this is a tenet of this religion just because someone says it is - doesn't mean it always is.