Wow....

[Christine]

And what would you suggest all of these people change their careers to? 10 years ago when DH started in IT it was the motherlode for health care, retirement all of it. Fast forward to today.....it's not that way anymore and the fact is it is getting less and less every day. So where would suggest these people just "go"? And who's to say that if we went back to school and changed career paths that by the time we were able to get a job in that field they wouldn't have pulled health care and retirement too??? It isn't that easy of a fix for many.

I was trying to say something about this a few pages back. The fabulous companies have a finite amount of positions. There is not room for everyone in the U.S. to work for one of these companies. Someone has to work for the small businesses, the start-ups and all the other thousands of businesses that are out there trying to find a niche and grow. We cannot all waltz into the Federal Government, or one of the big defense contractors, and well I could go on. If you are in one of these companies, pat yourself on the back, you made the right choice. You are better than us. I hope your industry stands the test of time. I hope your employer continues to offer your health insurance, and continues to honor their word that they will continue your health insurance when you retire.

Many of us try awfully hard to position ourselves better. I started my career path that I am now on in 1988. Health care was a non-issue then. My employer provided it for free (and this was a small company). I have since stayed in my career path, become an expert in my field, and have changed companies due to contract wins and losses. I don't get to choose who I work for, I can only follow my work and follow the contract. I now work for a company with 9 employees and health insurance is shaky. How much profit do you think a 9-person company working on a federal contract makes? We could lose our benefits at any time. So, yeah, for the last 3 years I have been making a huge effort to transition to the federal service even with a cut in income just so I know I will have health care until I die. It's a damn shame that my career path comes down to my health insurance but that's where I'm at. As a previous cancer patient and 43 year old woman, it is on my mind.

Do you think I haven't attended college, continued to go to college when I was 30 years old, had my second baby and also got a cancer diagnosis? Taken every course that would improve my career. But still I'm one of those who is at risk for not even having access and so are the other 8 people in my company. It is not always about choices. Or sometimes the paths you do take end up not working out. No one can predict that. No one.

I think this discussion has derailed into something that's not even relevent. What Hillary Clinton (and believe me I'm NO fan of hers) is proposing is not "socialized" care like the NHS in the U.K. It is JUST insuring that everyone has affordable access. The one person on here who is paying $10,000 per year--well, I don't consider that affordable access for most people. It certainly isn't for the receptionist I have in my office who just got a raise to get her to $30,000 per year. They don't want to take your current healthcare away. Have it, keep it. I think it's GREAT that they want to give small businesses some tax relief for subsidizing their workers health insurance. That will go a long way to keeping small business going. They are important. In my industry, the big fish like Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman are eating up small businesses because they cannot survive due to expenses. Who can compete with a company that has 30,000 employees and gets great rates for health insurance?

I think it's also great that they want to allow people who don't even have the access to buy into the same insurance that Federal employees get to purchase. I never saw that they were "giving" this away on the backs of our taxes. Sure, I think it will take some tax money to revamp the system and some people with very low incomes are going to need assistance. And to the person who pays $10K per year, you might get the opportunity to purchase into one of the Federal goverment's 30+ offered plans for maybe $7,000 a year and it still will probably be a great policy because they offer great insurance.

Oh and no one seems to mind that the Federal government workers, work jobs just like all of us get much of their healthcare paid for on the backs of taxpayers. The government doesn't make a profit, they pay their servants out of tax money and they have WONDERFUL benefits. Some of the best out there.

 

[Tyler's Dad]

Ummmmm no, that is false. I live in Minneapolis as well and my son used to go to Childrens world. $200.00 per week and now he attends a different center which is $240.00 per week. Not even kKnderbury Hill is $400-500 per week for one kid.

Kristine

How old is your kid? Infants at many of the centers in town can run that much.

 

[DawnCt1]

Ok, I'll jump into the fire

Is it selfish of me to expect the fruits of my labor to be... well... mine? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to take responsibility for their own lives? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to live with the consequences of their decisions? If it is, then call me selfish.

From my perspective, expecting others to take care of me is far more selfish.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

-- Thomas Jefferson

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[maxiesmom]

I am all for universal health care, but if hear it is "just a small tax increase" one more time, I will scream!

Here in Michigan they have been fighting for some time on how to balance our budget. We have an amendement that our budget HAS to be balanced. The only ideas? Income tax increase, or sales tax increase. Take your pick. The local government has asked twice in the last 8 months for additonal tax money for a local college. It has been turned down by vote twice. So they are already making plans to have another vote on it! Apparently they are going to keep putting it to ballet, until people get sick of voting no, and it passes. Our fire department is so understaffed (because of additional money being voted down) that if there is more than one fire at a time, we have to borrow fire-fighters from neighboring communities.

They need to figure out how to work with the third of my paycheck that they get before they come ask me for more! I agree everyone deserves healthcare, but they need to come up with a plan that will not penalize those of us who do hold jobs and are trying to make a living.

 

[connorlevismom]

How old is your kid? Infants at many of the centers in town can run that much.

Again, I am going to have to say that is false. My child is now three but has been in daycare since 6 months. We have NEVER paid that much. He always has attended a center.

Kristine

 

[meandtheguys2]

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18

For Jimmie.

I can give abundantly, and not advocate tax increases. Tax concerns aren't about selfish behavior. They are about trusting the govt. to make wise choices with the money allocated to them. Those are too very different issues.

 

[hydster]

Then let's not advocate raising taxes on hard-working Americans for the government to create yet another social progrm that needs overhauling. The government needs to prove good stewardship over the dollars they are already entrusted with in order to earn the trust of the public to agree to more taxes.

I wish there was a way to avoid raising taxes for MANY things and if it can be done I'm all for it. I stumbled upon this a few minutes ago and found it interesting *the part I quoted*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700832_2.html?nav=hcmodule

Actually bringing change starts with telling the truth, and the truth is the system in Washington has been hijacked for the benefit of corporate profits and the very wealthiest," Edwards said in Chicago.

That would be the best way to get this done *in tandem* with government overhaul and if that doesn't happen the only other way to get this done is to raise taxes.


Just seems very cruel as humans in general and as long as it isn't YOU *not you you but in general* aren't on this side of the fence you don't care. If you ever are on this side of the fence would you feel differently? I think if people are honest that answer is yes but I'm sure there are many here who will deny it just to deny it.

I don't think the government should raise taxes and then be given carte blanch spending anyway they want with that money or any money like they have been given in the past. I think it needs to be overseen somehow *I don't have that answer* by someone to make sure that the money being allocated is being allocated in the right manner. I'm tired of the spending willy nilly whenever they want and I wouldn't advocate for that but I do think something needs to be done.

I just wish something would be done....however it has to happen.

 

[meandtheguys2]

I don't think the government should raise taxes and then be given carte blanch spending anyway they want with that money or any money like they have been given in the past. I think it needs to be overseen somehow *I don't have that answer* by someone to make sure that the money being allocated is being allocated in the right manner. I'm tired of the spending willy nilly whenever they want and I wouldn't advocate for that but I do think something needs to be done.

I just wish something would be done....however it has to happen.

Exactly.

Too many people forget that catastrophe can hit even the best prepared. My niece was a million dollar baby. Even with good insurance they owed $200,000 in the end. It took them 8 years to pay it. They lived a very simple and frugal life to do so.

 

[mgilmer]

Ok, I'll jump into the fire

Is it selfish of me to expect the fruits of my labor to be... well... mine? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to take responsibility for their own lives? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to live with the consequences of their decisions? If it is, then call me selfish.

From my perspective, expecting others to take care of me is far more selfish.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

[ducklite]

Just seems very cruel as humans in general and as long as it isn't YOU *not you you but in general* aren't on this side of the fence you don't care. If you ever are on this side of the fence would you feel differently? I think if people are honest that answer is yes but I'm sure there are many here who will deny it just to deny it.

I HAVE BEEN on the other side of the fence. I was a broke single mom. I didn't have health insurance. (My son had insurance through a well child program--it was not a free program, you had to pay an annual premium of about $200 for it.) I certainly didn't stick my hand out to the government because of the way the cards had fallen for me. I didn't want or expect any handouts.

What struggling did for me was to make me that much more eager, more resolute to make a better life for myself, rather than to just sit on my butt and accept the status quo. I worked hard to facilitate changes in my life, and sometimes took a more difficult path because the pot of gold at the end was larger than it would be by taking the easy route.

I have absolute empathy for the truly needy, however I also feel strongly that for every one person who is truly in need, there are two who simply refuse to take the often difficult steps to change thier lives. I worked as a paralegal for the county DSS way back when, and the amount of fraud was staggering. Not to mention the number of people who truly just couldn't be bothered to try and pick themselves up--they saw it as simply too much bother.

Anne

 

[bigmerle1966]

That's what I thought until I looked into it for her. In order for her to keep her job she must show up on time. SO she take s the kids to daycare, they take the kids to school and pick them up. She would not be able to work without them. She has 2 kids, but in the area where she works where an average home goes for 300-400 k she is getting off cheap. It works out to 300 a week per child. Friends where I live are paying $250 and absolutley no transportation is offered.

This is before and after care for school age children? If so where in the world does she live? That is roberry plan and simple!

 

[hydster]

I HAVE BEEN on the other side of the fence. I was a broke single mom. I didn't have health insurance. (My son had insurance through a well child program--it was not a free program, you had to pay an annual premium of about $200 for it.) I certainly didn't stick my hand out to the government because of the way the cards had fallen for me. I didn't want or expect any handouts.

What struggling did for me was to make me that much more eager, more resolute to make a better life for myself, rather than to just sit on my butt and accept the status quo. I worked hard to facilitate changes in my life, and sometimes took a more difficult path because the pot of gold at the end was larger than it would be by taking the easy route.

I have absolute empathy for the truly needy, however I also feel strongly that for every one person who is truly in need, there are two who simply refuse to take the often difficult steps to change thier lives. I worked as a paralegal for the county DSS way back when, and the amount of fraud was staggering. Not to mention the number of people who truly just couldn't be bothered to try and pick themselves up--they saw it as simply too much bother.

Anne

Well we struggled too though as a couple not as a single parent but with 2 kids under the age of 2, a new home, and being self employed with no health care either. We didn't take government handouts or the easy route either. We struggled, ate top ramen for weeks at a time, lived on very little income but I guess this is where I and others disagree in that I don't see this as a handout......I see it as a handup as these people will still PAY for health care.


The rate may be lower than you pay but so will the coverage and as you say you only pay for the best. Some cannot afford to pay for the worst and if they can get health care while they are paying taxes to help fund that health care I fail to see how it's a handout. Everyone *you included* would be entitled to this "handout" so it isn't exclusive. Just because you choose to keep your current health care plan doesn't mean you couldn't benefit just like anyone else from one that would be in place for everyone.

I don't get the whole scamming the system/handout thought process. They will be paying for it *and even some who are lower income who currently now receive free health care will pay* but at least they will have access to a doctor when they truly need it.

I'd sure as hell rather pay taxes to fund people in my country who are in need of basic health care than pay for this war that we are quagmired in at the moment! Give me that option over this war ANY SINGLE DAY!

 

[Tomader]

I also think we should help the less fortunate. The honest ones that have jobs and not ten kids. If I knew that they would benefit then I would not mind helping. The problem is all the agencies that claim to help end up having workers that embezzle money and the people that are in need never see it. We have actors that make more money than they are entitiled to that help other countries while our own are loosing jobs, houses, and have no health care. Something should be done but we have too many dishonest people incharge. Even if they raise taxes the money will never see the people it should. That is the sad reality.

 

[ducklite]

Well we struggled too though as a couple not as a single parent but with 2 kids under the age of 2, a new home, and being self employed with no health care either. We didn't take government handouts or the easy route either. We struggled, ate top ramen for weeks at a time, lived on very little income but I guess this is where I and others disagree in that I don't see this as a handout......I see it as a handup as these people will still PAY for health care.

I've said repeatedly in this thread that as long as any UHC program is self-funded, with no cost to the taxpayer, I'm all for it. I don't see that as a handout at all, not sure why you would think I would.

The rate may be lower than you pay but so will the coverage and as you say you only pay for the best. Some cannot afford to pay for the worst and if they can get health care while they are paying taxes to help fund that health care I fail to see how it's a handout. Everyone *you included* would be entitled to this "handout" so it isn't exclusive. Just because you choose to keep your current health care plan doesn't mean you couldn't benefit just like anyone else from one that would be in place for everyone.

Again, I don't have a problem with UHC, as long as I'm not forced to give up my current plan, and I'm not forced to contribute to it via a mandatory purchase of it or tax dollars spent on it.

I don't get the whole scamming the system/handout thought process. They will be paying for it *and even some who are lower income who currently now receive free health care will pay* but at least they will have access to a doctor when they truly need it.

I do'nt think that UHC that is self-funding is scamming at all, I never said it was. I was referring to many other "social programs" such as welfare, WIC, food stamps, etc. that IMHO are greatly abused.

I'd sure as hell rather pay taxes to fund people in my country who are in need of basic health care than pay for this war that we are quagmired in at the moment! Give me that option over this war ANY SINGLE DAY!

And I agree with you on that--although I don't want to pay for either except for people who are truly disabled. I certainly don't begrudge a person born with Down Syndrome a SSI payment and medicaid for example. I think that we are morally responsible for caring for as a society those who are unable to care for themselves. On the otherhand, I think that we've drawn a far too wide circle as far as who should fit into that category, and include hundreds of thousands of people who have no compelling reason that they can't get a job and support themselves--even if they need some supplemental benefits such as Section 8 housing or a daycare supplement on a temporary basis--except in the rarest cases I don't believe that any benefits should go on indefinitely except for those who are truly disabled.

Anne

 

[Hannathy]

Ok, I'll jump into the fire

Is it selfish of me to expect the fruits of my labor to be... well... mine? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to take responsibility for their own lives? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to live with the consequences of their decisions? If it is, then call me selfish.

From my perspective, expecting others to take care of me is far more selfish.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

-- Thomas Jefferson

EXACTLY! Great Post

 

[hydster]

I've said repeatedly in this thread that as long as any UHC program is self-funded, with no cost to the taxpayer, I'm all for it. I don't see that as a handout at all, not sure why you would think I would.

Um based on you using handout in your post. I got that you were saying anyone who needed help was having a handout. *I certainly didn't stick my hand out to the government because of the way the cards had fallen for me. I didn't want or expect any handouts.

Again, I don't have a problem with UHC, as long as I'm not forced to give up my current plan, and I'm not forced to contribute to it via a mandatory purchase of it or tax dollars spent on it.

You wouldn't be forced to give up your current plan or have it mandatory. It may make taxes go up but it could make your premium go down so in the end it may even out......that's something no one knows yet.

I do'nt think that UHC that is self-funding is scamming at all, I never said it was. I was referring to many other "social programs" such as welfare, WIC, food stamps, etc. that IMHO are greatly abused.

Ok fine then! Take that part out and yes I agree a lot of them are greatly abused which is why I said we need someone to oversee these programs that is not corrupt *who that is I have no idea*

And I agree with you on that--although I don't want to pay for either except for people who are truly disabled. I certainly don't begrudge a person born with Down Syndrome a SSI payment and medicaid for example. I think that we are morally responsible for caring for as a society those who are unable to care for themselves.

Then we will have to agree to disagree because I feel it is kind and generous to help people who have genuine need regardless of what that need is or how that person was born or any other criteria.

On the otherhand, I think that we've drawn a far too wide circle as far as who should fit into that category, and include hundreds of thousands of people who have no compelling reason that they can't get a job and support themselves--even if they need some supplemental benefits such as Section 8 housing or a daycare supplement.

Anne

And this is another point where our views are complete opposite with apparently no common ground.

With that said......*though trying to not look like I'm taking my dollies and going home* I have to bow out of this for now.....I have my "real" life to attend to!

 

[Hannathy]

It may make taxes go up but it could make your premium go down so in the end it may even out......that's something no one knows yet.

Please show my one government plan that has EVER cost less than was projected, heck name me one Government plan that has even cost just what it was supposed to. Then will talk.

 

[jimmiej]

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18

For Jimmie.

My wife & I choose to give 11% (gross) to charity every month. That's after the government takes more than they should. What do you do for your fellow man?

 

[jimmiej]

I can give abundantly, and not advocate tax increases. Tax concerns aren't about selfish behavior. They are about trusting the govt. to make wise choices with the money allocated to them. Those are too very different issues.

Bingo!

 

[ducklite]

Um based on you using handout in your post. I got that you were saying anyone who needed help was having a handout. *I certainly didn't stick my hand out to the government because of the way the cards had fallen for me. I didn't want or expect any handouts.

I was referring to my situation only. And I wasn't talking specifically about health care, but all government benefits in general.

You wouldn't be forced to give up your current plan or have it mandatory. It may make taxes go up but it could make your premium go down so in the end it may even out......that's something no one knows yet.

I can almost guarantee it would make my taxes go up (show me a government program that hasn't--even CItizen's insurance here in Florida hits me both in my property taxes and with a surcharge to my insurance, and I don't want, need, or use their services.) I can almost guarantee it wouldn't make my premiums go down. I'm sure the government would find some way to tax the private insurers to help fund it--a cost that would be passed on to insureds. Those of us who choose buy private health insurance in order to ahve the best possible coverage will pay for both the government program and our private insurance, probably in several ways.

Ok fine then! Take that part out and yes I agree a lot of them are greatly abused which is why I said we need someone to oversee these programs that is not corrupt *who that is I have no idea*

It's going to be hard to find someone who is both ceompetant and honest and willing to leave the private sector. I doubt there is anyone currently in government who could do it. Maybe someone like Corzine or Bloomburg who know how to handle finances and would run the program with the same accountability of a corporation.

Then we will have to agree to disagree because I feel it is kind and generous to help people who have genuine need regardless of what that need is or how that person was born or any other criteria.

My point is that many who are currently getting help do not have a genuine need. They just think they do.

Anne