Would you join a lawsuit to revert DVC's resale restrictions?

[Chuck S]

As a resale RIV owner I'm curious to know if Disney is required to block off the points that resale owners at RIV own in order to ensure they don't ever get those points/rooms used by people trading into RIV. So if points can't trade out, then that should also block an equivalent amount from trading in.

For example, if 40% of points are owned by resale owners, is only 60% of the resort allowed to be used by people trading into the resort and direct owners?

If they didn't do something like that, the possibility exists that a resale owner would never be able to use their points, this is impossible with any other type of owner.

So has Disney put controls in place to ensure this doesn't happen, or are they just "hoping" it never happens based on past trading patterns in the other resorts.

I understand what you're trying to say. Since resale owners would have the 11 month priority window, as long as they use it, I think is it is very unlikely that that could ever happen, especially at a popular resort that would be difficult to book at 7 months for other owners.

 

[tjkraz]

As a resale RIV owner I'm curious to know if Disney is required to block off the points that resale owners at RIV own in order to ensure they don't ever get those points/rooms used by people trading into RIV. So if points can't trade out, then that should also block an equivalent amount from trading in.

For example, if 40% of points are owned by resale owners, is only 60% of the resort allowed to be used by people trading into the resort and direct owners?

If they didn't do something like that, the possibility exists that a resale owner would never be able to use their points, this is impossible with any other type of owner.

So has Disney put controls in place to ensure this doesn't happen, or are they just "hoping" it never happens based on past trading patterns in the other resorts.

The 11 month booking window addresses this organically. Until the 7 month window opens, both direct and resale riviera owners have access to 100% of inventory. Nobody is ever completely blocked out.

Even at 7 months, I suspect a riviera owner would face less competition than many other resorts since resale owners of SSR, OKW and a dozen other properties are blocked from booking Riviera.

 

[drusba]

All reservations are on a first come first serve basis, with any owner being able to reserve beginning at 11-months out, and any owner of another DVC resort (except those precluded from ever reserving Riviera), can reserve beginning at 7-months. No rooms are held back for Riviera resale purchasers because that would violate the rule that reservations are done on a first come first serve basis. The same applies to type of room at Riviera, e.g., they will not limit studio reservations just to assure 2BR lock-offs will remain available.

 

[MagicDVC]

As a resale RIV owner I'm curious to know if Disney is required to block off the points that resale owners at RIV own in order to ensure they don't ever get those points/rooms used by people trading into RIV. So if points can't trade out, then that should also block an equivalent amount from trading in.

For example, if 40% of points are owned by resale owners, is only 60% of the resort allowed to be used by people trading into the resort and direct owners?

If they didn't do something like that, the possibility exists that a resale owner would never be able to use their points, this is impossible with any other type of owner.

So has Disney put controls in place to ensure this doesn't happen, or are they just "hoping" it never happens based on past trading patterns in the other resorts.

This why some believe a fixed week at RIV will command a higher resale value.

 

[tjkraz]

This why some believe a fixed week at RIV will command a higher resale value.

Maybe. If it's a week and unit size that has wide demand.

List a points-based contract and you've got thousands of potential buyers. List a fixed week and buyers are generally limited to people who want that exact week and unit. Seems like a lot depends on how many people happen to be looking at that moment in time. It's not going to command a higher return unless you have buyers.

 

[Sandisw]

A decision probably made by the same people who thought that they could change the lock off ratio to benefit Disney, which was retracted once knowledgeable people on this board got involved.

That’s the point…they thought they had the ability to change those charts when they did but backed off and IMO, it’s because they were on shaky ground.

With restrictions, I think they feel much more confident in that move and why they continue.

 

[zavandor]

As a resale RIV owner I'm curious to know if Disney is required to block off the points that resale owners at RIV own in order to ensure they don't ever get those points/rooms used by people trading into RIV. So if points can't trade out, then that should also block an equivalent amount from trading in.

For example, if 40% of points are owned by resale owners, is only 60% of the resort allowed to be used by people trading into the resort and direct owners?

If they didn't do something like that, the possibility exists that a resale owner would never be able to use their points, this is impossible with any other type of owner.

So has Disney put controls in place to ensure this doesn't happen, or are they just "hoping" it never happens based on past trading patterns in the other resorts.

You ask a very good question and I don't think who responded really addressed it.
In a traditional exchange system, as many weeks are deposited to exchange than as many are allowed to exchange in.
A vacation club is different, because all members of the club can exchange freely without worrying of balances. But if in that system there are people that cannot exchange out, then others shouldn't be allowed to exchange in (in proportion to the amount of restricted points).
So, for example, if 40% of points are restricted and 20% are used between 11 and 7 months, then it makes sense that 20% of points are kept aside and not allowed to be used by people exchanging in.
I don't think it's likely to happen (every resale owner will be quite alert to use their points as soon as possible), in the example above probably 39,99% of points would be used before 7 months. But it's an interesting "thought experiment". If you have some time to waste and are interested in causing some panic to DVC Management, you might ask

 

[Sandisw]

You ask a very good question and I don't think who responded really addressed it.
In a traditional exchange system, as many weeks are deposited to exchange than as many are allowed to exchange in.
A vacation club is different, because all members of the club can exchange freely without worrying of balances. But if in that system there are people that cannot exchange out, then others shouldn't be allowed to exchange in (in proportion to the amount of restricted points).
So, for example, if 40% of points are restricted and 20% are used between 11 and 7 months, then it makes sense that 20% of points are kept aside and not allowed to be used by people exchanging in.
I don't think it's likely to happen (every resale owner will be quite alert to use their points as soon as possible), in the example above probably 39,99% of points would be used before 7 months. But it's an interesting "thought experiment". If you have some time to waste and are interested in causing some panic to DVC Management, you might ask

The documents address this and it states that you have no remedy..paraphrasing here,,,if you can’t secure reservations you want for the exact time you want.

Basically, as long as you had the option of booking something at the same time as all other home resort owners, then it’s the same FCfS rules…since the restrictions only come into play at 7 months, and not during home resort booking, the ownership interest of the resale owner is exactly the same as a direct owner during that window.

I just read the specifics in the MS POS.

 

[lowlight]

The documents address this and it states that you have no remedy..paraphrasing here,,,if you can’t secure reservations you want for the exact time you want.

Is not securing reservations for the exact time you want considered the same as being unable to secure a reservation for any time at all? Non restricted points have the ability to trade into a dozen other resorts to secure a reservation 7 months and under. I get what @zavandor is saying- in a traditional timeshare you have 52 weeks and say 52 owners- you may not get the week you want if you wait l, but you get one of the 52 weeks. If they sold 52 weeks to 53 owners, someone is getting bumped out every year. Would that be legal regardless of what the contract says?

 

[Sandisw]

Is not securing reservations for the exact time you want considered the same as being unable to secure a reservation for any time at all? Non restricted points have the ability to trade into a dozen other resorts to secure a reservation 7 months and under. I get what @zavandor is saying- in a traditional timeshare you have 52 weeks and say 52 owners- you may not get the week you want if you wait l, but you get one of the 52 weeks. If they sold 52 weeks to 53 owners, someone is getting bumped out every year. Would that be legal regardless of what the contract says?

Not the way the contract is written for us. It says…and I will find it…and this isn’t just in relation to restricted points either…that as long as you have thr ability to book something when the points are valid, then it matched a FCFS system.

So, if I decide I want to go during May, and want a studio, but I go to book at 11 months, I can only get a 1 bedroom, then it’s my choice now not to book…

That’s the whole nature…doesn’t matter if someone else has more options to trade…the rules and FL timeshare law relate to the home resort booking.

That is why they can ever give resale purchaser at any resort who buy resale a different rule for booking the home resort.

Basically, an owner has 365 days to use points and as long as one can book something in those days, then you have been given the opportunity to use your contract.

ETA: Here is the exact language from the MS POS:

 

[lowlight]

Basically, an owner has 365 days to use points and as long as one can book something in those days, then you have been given the opportunity to use your contract.

What if you are RIV resale, and at 6 months you decide to book something, and there is nothing available for the remaining 6 months? If you aren’t RIV resale you could likely find something at another resort, but at 6 months you may find no availability at all for RIV. Like PP said, just a thought experiment. You’re saying as long as the days were offered even 1/365 days of the year, you were given a chance to use the points? Interesting.

Edit: That all mentions “desired and satisfactory”, but the question was posed as if enough non owners trade in after 7 month booking starts, there may be nothing left for a resale member and nowhere to go.

 

[Sandisw]

What if you are RIV resale, and at 6 months you decide to book something, and there is nothing available for the remaining 6 months? If you aren’t RIV resale you could likely find something at another resort, but at 6 months you may find no availability at all for RIV. Like PP said, just a thought experiment. You’re saying as long as the days were offered even 1/365 days of the year, you were given a chance to use the points? Interesting.

Yes, that is exactly what that is saying, and what it means with a FCFS system. As long as rooms were available to book starting at the 11 month mark and going forward, then any non booking by an owner was a choice not to take what was there.

I own resale RIV and bought knowing the restrictions, which means, if I wait to book, I could be out of luck if nothing at RIV is still available…

The fact that there other contracts have the ability to trade doesn’t impact me because I didn’t buy that type of contract.

Now, in reality there is never going to be a resale RIV owner who will be locked out of home resort if booking during the home resort period, but simply may have to be flexible in what room and dates they have to accept.

 

[zavandor]

Not the way the contract is written for us. It says…and I will find it…and this isn’t just in relation to restricted points either…that as long as you have thr ability to book something when the points are valid, then it matched a FCFS system.

So, if I decide I want to go during May, and want a studio, but I go to book at 11 months, I can only get a 1 bedroom, then it’s my choice now not to book…

That’s the whole nature…doesn’t matter if someone else has more options to trade…the rules and FL timeshare law relate to the home resort booking.

That is why they can ever give resale purchaser at any resort who buy resale a different rule for booking the home resort.

Basically, an owner has 365 days to use points and as long as one can book something in those days, then you have been given the opportunity to use your contract.

ETA: Here is the exact language from the MS POS:

View attachment 870213

The documents you pasted say the exact opposite than how you're interpreting them.
It says that if an owner doesn't book in a timely manner, then what's left may not be convenient for them to the point of being unusable. So it states that something must remain. Let's imagine no resale restrictions. If all nights are booked and an owner still has 100 points, then 100 points are available somewhere: might be 50 at SSR, 10 at AKV and 40 at OKW. Maybe the owner doesn't want a split stay so he's out of luck, but something in the system is still available.
A RIV resale owner could actually be stuck with points and nothing is available in the system for them to use, at all.

Looking at this in another way: RIV resale owners don't belong to the Vacation Club. They own only one resort. If they cannot trade out, why should someone trade in?

According to Florida laws, would it be possible to sell a resort where owners cannot trade out, but the owners of another system can trade in? Even if it's written in the contract, would it be legal?

 

[Sandisw]

The documents you pasted say the exact opposite than how you're interpreting them.
It says that if an owner doesn't book in a timely manner, then what's left may not be convenient for them to the point of being unusable. So it states that something must remain. Let's imagine no resale restrictions. If all nights are booked and an owner still has 100 points, then 100 points are available somewhere: might be 50 at SSR, 10 at AKV and 40 at OKW. Maybe the owner doesn't want a split stay so he's out of luck, but something in the system is still available.
A RIV resale owner could actually be stuck with points and nothing is available in the system for them to use, at all.

Looking at this in another way: RIV resale owners don't belong to the Vacation Club. They own only one resort. If they cannot trade out, why should someone trade in?

According to Florida laws, would it be possible to sell a resort where owners cannot trade out, but the owners of another system can trade in? Even if it's written in the contract, would it be legal?

Yeah, I defiantly read it different than you because of the way owners at a deeded home resort have to br treated the same.

FL timeshare law requires all rules for home resort booking to be the exact same no matter how you acquire your contract, So, in that case, they can’t hold home resort rooms for resale owners who can’t trade but not give them to home resort owners who can…since the home resort has to be the same access for all.

So, the way it is written, and the way I read the law, resort owners who are deeded to a specific resort will always have to be given a priority over those who trade in….we are entitled to one month but get four. I csnt remember, but will look to see if the one month is a minimum under FL law,

In this case, it’s saying if you wait to book, you are out of luck to book your home resort if it’s booked when you want to go.

To add, since the 11 month window is a rolling window, a home resort owner will always have the ability to book something…just no special expections will be made for banking or borrowing….

For example, if I am going to book right now and want to go in October and nothing is available, and nothing shows up until January, but my points expires, that’s on me because there are open rooms still for booking.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

The documents you pasted say the exact opposite than how you're interpreting them.
It says that if an owner doesn't book in a timely manner, then what's left may not be convenient for them to the point of being unusable. So it states that something must remain. Let's imagine no resale restrictions. If all nights are booked and an owner still has 100 points, then 100 points are available somewhere: might be 50 at SSR, 10 at AKV and 40 at OKW. Maybe the owner doesn't want a split stay so he's out of luck, but something in the system is still available.
A RIV resale owner could actually be stuck with points and nothing is available in the system for them to use, at all.

Looking at this in another way: RIV resale owners don't belong to the Vacation Club. They own only one resort. If they cannot trade out, why should someone trade in?

According to Florida laws, would it be possible to sell a resort where owners cannot trade out, but the owners of another system can trade in? Even if it's written in the contract, would it be legal?

Yeah, I defiantly read it different than you because of the way owners at a deeded home resort have to br treated the same.

FL timeshare law requires all rules for home resort booking to be the exact same no matter how you acquire your contract, So, in that case, they can’t hold home resort rooms for resale owners who can’t trade but not give them to home resort owners who can…since the home resort has to be the same access for all.

So, the way it is written, and the way I read the law, resort owners who are deeded to a specific resort will always have to be given a priority over those who trade in….we are entitled to one month but get four. I csnt remember, but will look to see if the one month is a minimum under FL law,

In this case, it’s saying if you wait to book, you are out of luck to book your home resort if it’s booked when you want to go.

To add, since the 11 month window is a rolling window, a home resort owner will always have the ability to book something…just no special expections will be made for banking or borrowing….

For example, if I am going to book right now and want to go in October and nothing is available, and nothing shows up until January, but my points expires, that’s on me because there are open rooms still for booking.

With more and more Riv resale happening every day there's a chance, however rare, this very scenario will occur at some point and then it'll be very interesting to see what actions, if any, that owner takes and how Disney responds.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I think if America made the losers of lawsuits pay the attorney fees of both parties that discussions like this wouldn’t ever happen.

 

[lowlight]

I think if America made the losers of lawsuits pay the attorney fees of both parties that discussions like this wouldn’t ever happen.

Well, yeah, but that would sway the balance of power towards corporations who have their own legal departments. For personal lawsuits, I agree. Are we feeling sorry for the little helpless company Disney now?

 

[kilik64]

Caveat emptor.

If you buy riv resale and can’t find anything to book, that’s your own dumb fault at that point. You have 4 months on a daily rolling basis to book.

 

[lowlight]

Caveat emptor.

If you buy riv resale and can’t find anything to book, that’s your own dumb fault at that point. You have 4 months on a daily rolling basis to book.

PP didn’t say he was having trouble, just that it was a “thought experiment”. If it’s hard to do, well then…

 

[Sandisw]

With more and more Riv resale happening every day there's a chance, however rare, this very scenario will occur at some point and then it'll be very interesting to see what actions, if any, that owner takes and how Disney responds.

It will never occur...it can't....the number of points that exist are tied to actual rooms and thus, a years worth of points match a years worth of rooms....

Banking and borrowing can upset the 1:1 balance in a year, but not every owner whats to travel every single day.....again, anyone who has access to rooms every day, whether its a day they want to travel or not, is being given the opporunity to use their points. If they choose not to book when something is there, its a choice.

As the language said, if the days and rooms there don't match your desire to travel, it doesn't mean you are being prevented from your membership. If I go on to book RIV today, in the next 11 months there are rooms are all sizes to use points.....and as long as there are days that are there, then the owner has the ability to use their points.

Trying to say, "Well, I couldn't book at 11 months, only 6 months, and the dates I want are now gone, you violated my contract" isn't going to fly.....that 11 month window is a rolling window so one will never be shut out of their resort...

Now, as an owner of both resale and direct RIV points, there is no question I have more flexiblity in how to use those points, and when my dad passed away in 2023, and I had to cancel a trip with resale RIV points, I ended up booking a GV for one night during my next trip because that is all that was there and I didn't want to lose points...

That is why one shouldn't buy a restricted resort like RIV, VDH or CFW resale if one can't plan in advance and itsn't willing to accept the gamble....