Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[4luv2cdisney]

I have asked for the updated Buena Vista Trading Company Disclosure Guide, but they told me since it goes into effect on January 19, 2019, the updated version will be available after that date.

good golly. And no one ever called you back, either, right?

 

[skier_pete]

I think that's precisely the reason they made this change. The market value for Riviera resale will be significantly lower - probably under $100 (maybe even $70s?). Disney will happily exercise ROFR on all those contracts and either re-sell them for $200+ or keep them and rent out the points.

Many direct purchasers are oblivious to the resale market when they purchase, and I doubt Disney will point out this restriction to them. It'll be in the fine print.

IDK - I have talked to many DVC sales people since buying resale, and they often point out the difference between resale and direct - though maybe it's something that the customer has to bring up first.

Perhaps you are right and Disney is interested in the resale market - but experience to date is that Disney doesn't want to be encouraging the ROFR / selling of old resorts. This is part of why they jacked old resorts Point prices so high....they don't really want to have to sell them, and if they do, they need to sell them for $100+ more than they can rebuy them.

Plus, depressing resale prices doesn't really help Disney. Robust resale prices keeps the market for new points high.

I mean, maybe just speaking for myself, but if I have to pay $200 to get into a DVC resort that I can trade into others, OR I pay (in your example) $70 to just be at Riviera, I would think long and hard about just buying Riviera at the right price. You could do a lot worse than being "stuck" at this location!

Another point though - I buy resale at Riviera better hope it doesn't fill up real fast or I better get my reservation in early - cause your never going to take a last minute trip.

Again, I bet this doesn't slow resale prices as much as you would think. Access to 14 of 15 (or 16 or 17) resorts doesn't change much at the existing resorts.

Don't think we can include this in a lawsuit.

 

[zavandor]

good golly. And no one ever called you back, either, right?

No, they haven't. I asked about this too and the CM on the chat said he would ask someone in Members relations to call me.

Another point though - I buy resale at Riviera better hope it doesn't fill up real fast or I better get my reservation in early - cause your never going to take a last minute trip.

The new exchange system cannot be a first come first serve at 7 months like for the Legacy 14, there must be some sort of exchange system so every point going out is balanced only by points coming in. Direct buyers at other resorts won't be able to fill Riviera unless Riviera owners will trade out. This system might even guarantee better availability during the slow seasons, difficult to say right now.

 

[Dean]

Finally we got the last piece of the puzzle, everything is clear now.
To make the new resale restrictions work, they'll have to create a new exchange system. Currently, the 14 LegacyDVC resorts exchange freely at 7 months, the only limit being room availability. New resorts will not be part of the same club anymore. There will have to be a regulated exchange system between them so they can give access to that new system only to whoever they want (i.e. only direct buyers and older grandfathered members). But such a system to work needs points to be deposited so members can start exchanging reservations between the clubs. Disney could provide those, keeping ownership of many hundred thousand points. But why should they, when there is a method to create points out of thin air? Every time a lockoff will be booked as studio + 1BR, the excess points could go into the exchange system.
They weren't after the breakage inventory, that is peanuts, they were after a way to make the new exchange system work.

I doubt this is the last change.

 

[twinklebug]

I'm going to pipe up one last time here, and then I'm off.

We want to keep Disney accountable for the changes they make to our resorts and usage. I fully believe they have every intention of being so. The point reallocation does look odd, but some analysis of their books should reveal what is going on is not improper. We won't know until we have them in hand... IF we ever have them.

To wage a lawsuit against our own administrator is a double edge sword. It's not cheap to go into on either side and as owners the expenses, regardless of outcome, will be thrown back in our lap to cover.

Tread carefully.

 

[zavandor]

I doubt this is the last change.

@Dean, have you told DVC your ideas about creating a second club to limit resales from booking other resorts? You've been saying that was a possibility for years.

 

[skier_pete]

Finally we got the last piece of the puzzle, everything is clear now.
To make the new resale restrictions work, they'll have to create a new exchange system. Currently, the 14 LegacyDVC resorts exchange freely at 7 months, the only limit being room availability. New resorts will not be part of the same club anymore. There will have to be a regulated exchange system between them so they can give access to that new system only to whoever they want (i.e. only direct buyers and older grandfathered members). But such a system to work needs points to be deposited so members can start exchanging reservations between the clubs. Disney could provide those, keeping ownership of many hundred thousand points. But why should they, when there is a method to create points out of thin air? Every time a lockoff will be booked as studio + 1BR, the excess points could go into the exchange system.
They weren't after the breakage inventory, that is peanuts, they were after a way to make the new exchange system work.

When I first read this - I didn't grasp what you meant - but now I do. You are saying as an owner at one of the existing resorts - we will actually have to "trade into" Riviera, like you would with say RCI? Ugh, I really hope they don't make it that complicated - one of the nicer things about Disney is .

The good news (for me) is that Riviera to me looks like a "check it out once and done" type resort, and honestly the "Reflections" resort I have zero interest in at all.

 

[OKW Lover]

Whoa. So I am just now hearing about this for the first time. We were told when we purchased that the amount of points for a studio would never change. I don't understand how this is possible or allowed and why we were not told. That is why we purchased it.

That's not what it says in the actual POS materials.

 

[DizDaD7]

Forgive me if this is a STUPID question, but Who in their right mind would want to buy into a resort that you're stuck in.....? True I get it, back when OKW was just starting out that was the only option, but even they're able to use their points at GFV if they wanted. TBH one of the huge benefits(selling points) to buying into DVC was to be able to use them(At a good price) at any of the WDW resorts. And also use them at over 500 other places to stay( At an ok price ) but at least you had/have options......And Now....ehhhhh Not so much

 

[crvetter]

Forgive me if this is a STUPID question, but Who in their right mind would want to buy into a resort that you're stuck in.....? True I get it, back when OKW was just starting out that was the only option, but even they're able to use their points at GFV if they wanted. TBH one of the huge benefits(selling points) to buying into DVC was to be able to use them(At a good price) at any of the WDW resorts. And also use them at over 500 other places to stay( At an ok price ) but at least you had/have options......And Now....ehhhhh Not so much

My guess is Disney is trying to stop cheap points used at resorts with expensive points. I think there is definitely “classes” of resorts which is abundantly evident based on resale prices. I think they want to normalize these class in some fashion, which we will likely see happen when Riviera is announced. It should be noted as of right now Disney could say 2 OKW points are only worth 1 VGF point but just has not chosen to do so yet. They can even charge you to trade into certain resorts. Perhaps they want to avoid doing just that and have chosen this path instead. Look at the Buena Vista Trading Agreement for reference to these options they have. Either case this sucks but is going to be necessary (at least some hurt will be) when the 2042 resorts start to expire.

 

[DizDaD7]

My guess is Disney is trying to stop cheap points used at resorts with expensive points. I think there is definitely “classes” of resorts which is abundantly evident based on resale prices. I think they want to normalize these class in some fashion, which we will likely see happen when Riviera is announced. It should be noted as of right now Disney could say 2 OKW points are only worth 1 VGF point but just has not chosen to do so yet. They can even charge you to trade into certain resorts. Perhaps they want to avoid doing just that and have chosen this path instead. Look at the Buena Vista Trading Agreement for reference to these options they have. Either case this sucks but is going to be necessary (at least some hurt will be) when the 2042 resorts start to expire.

I guess but, My SSR points are good for lets say 9 or 10 nights during MAGIC Season currently, and next year if I wanted to stay at GFV I'd maybe get 5 nights....So Those other 5 nights, (That I no longer have points for) can therefore be used by another DVC member...They've already used my pts up.

 

[Spartan86]

My guess is Disney is trying to stop cheap points used at resorts with expensive points. I think there is definitely “classes” of resorts which is abundantly evident based on resale prices. I think they want to normalize these class in some fashion, which we will likely see happen when Riviera is announced. It should be noted as of right now Disney could say 2 OKW points are only worth 1 VGF point but just has not chosen to do so yet. They can even charge you to trade into certain resorts. Perhaps they want to avoid doing just that and have chosen this path instead. Look at the Buena Vista Trading Agreement for reference to these options they have. Either case this sucks but is going to be necessary (at least some hurt will be) when the 2042 resorts start to expire.

If Disney has sold out a resort, say VGF what difference does it make to them whether VGF is booked with a VGF or an OKW point? What do they gain by restricting, if they did, the OKW points booking another resort?

 

[crvetter]

If Disney has sold out a resort, what difference does it make to them whether VGF is booked with a VGF or an OKW point? What do they gain by restricting, if they did, the OKW points booking another resort?

Force people to buy newer resorts that have higher direct prices. That would be the biggest benefit to them. The other thing is they are contractually obligated to do just this if the DVC exchange begins to get lopsided. Might happen closer to 2042. Plus be mindful I said they could do it. I didn’t say they should do it.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

If Disney has sold out a resort, say VGF what difference does it make to them whether VGF is booked with a VGF or an OKW point? What do they gain by restricting, if they did, the OKW points booking another resort?

I think that's an owner concern, not a DVC concern. After all they built SSR and sold it same as all others and still sell points there. In their mind it's not cheap - just big and I'm sure made them a ton of money.

 

[Spartan86]

Force people to buy newer resorts that have higher direct prices. That would be the biggest benefit to them. The other thing is they are contractually obligated to do just this if the DVC exchange begins to get lopsided. Might happen closer to 2042. Plus be mindful I said they could do it. I didn’t say they should do it.

I gotcha. Just curious as to the “follow the money” line of thought. Thanks.

 

[skier_pete]

Force people to buy newer resorts that have higher direct prices. That would be the biggest benefit to them. The other thing is they are contractually obligated to do just this if the DVC exchange begins to get lopsided. Might happen closer to 2042. Plus be mindful I said they could do it. I didn’t say they should do it.

Right. Every restriction they put in is not so much about punishing the resale owner but it's about having another benefit to sell to the the new buyer. I am not sure really what Disney thinks about the resale market. You would think in some ways it would want the resale market to stay reasonably high because it benefits the look of the product to those that pay attention. On the other hand, it benefits Disney if resale points are low and they can ROFR cheap. However, I don't think Disney has in the past been interested in driving that business. With THIS change - we might see for the first time them showing an interest in it. Or maybe they still just don't care and it's all about the direct benefit. How do you get people to pay $200 a point at a resort not directly at park? Make sure that's the only way you can trade out of there.

 

[Dean]

@Dean, have you told DVC your ideas about creating a second club to limit resales from booking other resorts? You've been saying that was a possibility for years.

Yes I’m on record as saying DVC II was a possibility. I haven’t discussed it with DVC but I think they’re smart enough to figure it out on their own.

 

[disneynutz]

Forgive me if this is a STUPID question, but Who in their right mind would want to buy into a resort that you're stuck in.....? True I get it, back when OKW was just starting out that was the only option, but even they're able to use their points at GFV if they wanted. TBH one of the huge benefits(selling points) to buying into DVC was to be able to use them(At a good price) at any of the WDW resorts. And also use them at over 500 other places to stay( At an ok price ) but at least you had/have options......And Now....ehhhhh Not so much

My guess is that resale prices at the new resorts will crash, Disney will ROFR them at a huge discount, then sell them at their new inflated price.

Bill

 

[CMNJ]

Just a thought but is it possible that once Disney creates this new trading company that they could lure current owners to join it and effectively leave the current club? Obviously they need a significant number of us on board to trade with Riviera because Disney doesn’t own enough of the current resorts to effectively allow Riviera owners to trade out. They need our points in order to facilitate trades if Riviera isn’t part of the original trading company. However if they really want to kill the resale market could they force us to choose between trading options. IE we’d leave the current club to join this new “VIP” club? I’m just curious how inventory will work with essentially 2 clubs accessing inventory. Could Disney do something like this or does the POS for the multi site prevent them from taking owners out of the current club without it totally being dissolved?

 

[Madame]

Just a thought but is it possible that once Disney creates this new trading company that they could lure current owners to join it and effectively leave the current club? Obviously they need a significant number of us on board to trade with Riviera because Disney doesn’t own enough of the current resorts to effectively allow Riviera owners to trade out. They need our points in order to facilitate trades if Riviera isn’t part of the original trading company. However if they really want to kill the resale market could they force us to choose between trading options. IE we’d leave the current club to join this new “VIP” club? I’m just curious how inventory will work with essentially 2 clubs accessing inventory. Could Disney do something like this or does the POS for the multi site prevent them from taking owners out of the current club without it totally being dissolved?

I think @zavandor has it right & that the points “created” via the lockoff premium raise will be used to facilitate trade between the two. Yet, no one will ever do anything about it.