Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[Bearval]

I would have to believe that it would not be legal for Disney to do a point reallocation that would benefit them and not the owners. If this is the case that it would need to be challenged to put a stop to the practice which unfortunately would most likely would involve lawyers. As owners we all would have to pay a special assessment based on the number of points you have to pay for this cost. I for one would not want to have to go this route but if is what it would take than I am all for it.

 

[Dean]

Can you attach the file to this thread like @WebmasterDoc did? Or maybe he can suggest an external hosting that would work.
Thanks

It's in a book, I don't have a way to copy it. Maybe Rob can do so.

What is conjecture?
If it's Disney gaining from the reallocation, I would say it's pretty certain.
If it's them stealing points, then maybe they are not stealing in the sense it's illegal (that's what we are debating and I think it is indeed illegal), but they are certainly "making it more expensive for us to stay".


In other news, I've received a call yesterday from a CM, but I couldn't dedicate the time to it, so I've now an appointment for next week.

That's just it, we don't know that Disney will gain (I personally doubt they will) and even if they do, I don't believe that's likely to be the motivation. To me that they're making it more expensive for some to stay is irrelevant from a system standpoint. Hopefully you'll get a better explanation as to the specific thinking behind the change, esp making 2 BR cheaper and both studios and 1 BR more. I sincerely doubt you're going to get anywhere discussing the issue of legality. I'd suggest you dedicate the main topic to the why question (or the legalities if you chose) and exhaust that before asking about the rules/legality of the change but regardless if you try to mix the 2 from the get go, I doubt it'll be a productive call.

One thing I've learned is Disney is pretty averse to opening up their internal workings for lawsuits thus they're very careful to not actively open themselves to any action they can avoid. I also feel historically when they're obviously wrong, they've responded appropriately in the past. You haven't owned long enough but I vividly remember the issue of free passes through the end of 1999. Well the last year they had initially ruled that you wouldn't get passes using borrowed 2000 points. If you read the OKW POS there's nothing there that would have supported that interpretation so they reversed the decision but I don't know specifics of why they changed the answer. I know that's 20 years ago but it's the only situation that comes to mind where they were clearly wrong from a legality/POS standpoint.

 

[Dean]

I would have to believe that it would not be legal for Disney to do a point reallocation that would benefit them and not the owners. If this is the case that it would need to be challenged to put a stop to the practice which unfortunately would most likely would involve lawyers. As owners we all would have to pay a special assessment based on the number of points you have to pay for this cost. I for one would not want to have to go this route but if is what it would take than I am all for it.

If that were the purpose, I agree with you. But it's simply conjecture this was the reason behind it, if I end up believing it is, I will sell. They're a company and when it comes to things that are not contractual like perks, I'll defend them having such rights, but not in this situation.

 

[Jerry5788]

They raised the costs of both studios and 1 bedrooms to create more "lock off premiums" which essentially means that it costs all of us more to stay in studios and 1-bedrooms and Disney pockets the extra rooms in the system that this creates. Their basically stealing points from us all making it more expensive for us to stay. If that doesn't bother you, then that's your choice. It bothers the hell out of me.

They made two bedrooms cheaper right? I don’t book 2 bedrooms so adverse to me but perhaps next trip I’m planning I will bring some friends and upgrade to the 2 bedroom.

Seems hard to prove intention behind the changes unless you can actually get a judge to grant you discovery and someone was stupid enough to put it in email. I agree it is likely a consequence of the change what you described as studios are always the first to go.

They could be trying to get the studio renters to sell their DVC as many people have complained some people have bought the minimum amount of points planning to book studios which taxes the system as there are more people who want to rent studios then actual studios available.

 

[Bearval]

If after the point reallocation this generates more revenue that goes to Disney instead of offsetting the expenses of the resort that in itself would show the changes benefited Disney and not the owners.

 

[Jerry5788]

If after the point reallocation this generates more revenue that goes to Disney instead of offsetting the expenses of the resort that in itself would show the changes benefited Disney and not the owners.

I imagine Disney gets more revenue than DVC gets comped for every room they rent out given rack rate vs DVC rate. You’d need to know how many rooms they had available to rent in 2019 that was available and went intended and need to compare that to 2020. As you could say difference is more rooms were rented due to demand from SWGE in 2020

 

[mjr0483]

I have not read this full thread as I’m confused. Disney is changing the points in 2020 and I imagine must follow in lines with the terms/conditions when we bought then what’s the problem?

You can say they are pushing to make us upgrade rooms, bigger vacations, or buy more points but that is there right.

A lawsuit seems what is wrong with America. Just like the person who gets burnt by coffee and dues saying it was served too hot.

They are going beyond balancing points for a studio between seasons. They are balancing points between different size villas. They are making larger villas less expensive and smaller villas more expensive. So for people who want to stay in a studio, the value of your points decrease, the cost of the studio increases and can’t rent as many nights as you have done previously.

 

[Jerry5788]

When Disney does rent out a DVC room at rack rate how does that work? I thought they have a certain number of points they can use per year to grab these rooms. Can they go over this specific amount?

 

[Jerry5788]

They are going beyond balancing points for a studio between seasons. They are balancing points between different size villas. They are making larger villas less expensive and smaller villas more expensive. So for people who want to stay in a studio, the value of your points decrease, the cost of the studio increases and can’t rent as many nights as you have done previously.

Agreed but aren’t they allowed to do that? I thought that’s what people have talked about with poly for a long time. Studios should be more expensive and bungalows less expensive as they are so ridiculous expensive.

 

[RRB]

If after the point reallocation this generates more revenue that goes to Disney instead of offsetting the expenses of the resort that in itself would show the changes benefited Disney and not the owners.

How would the reallocation generate more revenue?

 

[RobDoc]

It's in a book, I don't have a way to copy it. Maybe Rob can do so.
...

Dean, are you able to take a photo of the document(s)? They can easily be uploaded just like the scans I posted.

 

[mjr0483]

Agreed but aren’t they allowed to do that? I thought that’s what people have talked about with poly for a long time. Studios should be more expensive and bungalows less expensive as they are so ridiculous expensive.

The allowed to part is what we are trying to figure out.

 

[OKW Lover]

When Disney does rent out a DVC room at rack rate how does that work? I thought they have a certain number of points they can use per year to grab these rooms. Can they go over this specific amount?

In addition to the number of points retained (IIRC 4% of the resort), they also rent out breakage points and points that people have used for other purposes (DCL, ABD, etc).

 

[Bearval]

How would the reallocation generate more revenue?

Members would exhaust their points faster due to the higher point total needed for renting studio and one bedrooms. This would now allow Disney to rent some “extra” rooms for cash.

 

[Bearval]

I imagine Disney gets more revenue than DVC gets comped for every room they rent out given rack rate vs DVC rate. You’d need to know how many rooms they had available to rent in 2019 that was available and went intended and need to compare that to 2020. As you could say difference is more rooms were rented due to demand from SWGE in 2020

I agree, you would need to know how many additional nights were created to be available for rent due to the point reallocation and members burning up points due to the increased point for studio and one bedrooms and even if an increase in available nights was even created.

 

[RobDoc]

They are going beyond balancing points for a studio between seasons. They are balancing points between different size villas. They are making larger villas less expensive and smaller villas more expensive. So for people who want to stay in a studio, the value of your points decrease, the cost of the studio increases and can’t rent as many nights as you have done previously.

This is exactly what a reallocation is supposed to accomplish - "balancing points between different size villas".

You are suggesting that reallocation is only done for a specific villa type rather than the resort as a whole.

A true reallocation of all villa types benefits members by maintaining occupancy levels across the board as long as the total points required to reserve all villas for the year do not increase beyond the total points owned at the resort. While some members will NOT benefit from the reallocation, others will benefit. IMO, Studios have been under priced since October 1991 when the first point charts were issued. That has been modified with each reallocation beginning in 1996 and continues yet today.

 

[RRB]

Members would exhaust their points faster due to the higher point total needed for renting studio and one bedrooms. This would now allow Disney to rent some “extra” rooms for cash.

That is a possibility but we would never know if this would happen or not (or if it is happening now). I think there are rules within DVC regarding cash reservations. All we can do as members is to make sure that DVC keeps to their side of the contract obligations.

Like many posting here, I am following the 3 threads on this topic in the Member Services Forum. Based on everything I've read, I don't know if we really know what they are allowed to do because of the issue of "reallocation limited to within room types" vs "reallocation of all room types within the resort". Has someone definitively determined that?

 

[Dean]

If after the point reallocation this generates more revenue that goes to Disney instead of offsetting the expenses of the resort that in itself would show the changes benefited Disney and not the owners.

It really doesn't matter if it generates more dollars, only if that's the intent, IMO.

I imagine Disney gets more revenue than DVC gets comped for every room they rent out given rack rate vs DVC rate. You’d need to know how many rooms they had available to rent in 2019 that was available and went intended and need to compare that to 2020. As you could say difference is more rooms were rented due to demand from SWGE in 2020

When Disney does rent out a DVC room at rack rate how does that work? I thought they have a certain number of points they can use per year to grab these rooms. Can they go over this specific amount?

I'm not sure where it stands currently but at one point CRO got 50% of the total revenue for rooms they rented out and if they didn't rent the rooms, the system ate those nights, not CRO. This is whey cash type exchanges are so expensive, they have to convert those points to $$$ and the drain of $$$ along the way is dramatic.

 

[Dean]

Dean, are you able to take a photo of the document(s)? They can easily be uploaded just like the scans I posted.

Thanks Rob, I'm not sure how it'll come through.

 

[Dean]

I agree, you would need to know how many additional nights were created to be available for rent due to the point reallocation and members burning up points due to the increased point for studio and one bedrooms and even if an increase in available nights was even created.

They'll eat up points faster for RCI deposits if they continue to use mostly studios & 1 BR at SSR. From a personal perspective, I'm hoping they go back to depositing more 2 BR units.