Will GREAT Dining Ever Return to WDW?

[Peter Pirate 2]

Does anyone believe there is any remote chance that WDW will ever again attempt to add to what they have achieved with V&A's?

The signature program when it started was awesome, with first class chef's (with autonomy), sommeliers and wait staff. Creative theming and menu planning and such?

I know the signature program in its original concept basically failed (failed to maintain high enough seating capacity), but with the continued success of V&A's isn't there some room for another, then maybe another offering?

It seems like maybe WDW jumped into the signature program too fast (too many restaurants, too quickly) to build up loyalties. It seems that adding a few, one at a time would surely work.

Any thoughts?

 

[Pakey]

One can only hope.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

If they ever get away from the Basic Dining Plan!

Unfortunately, many people on the DDP, whether they pay for it directly or paying a higher rate for their room and getting "free" dining, look to the highest price items on the menu. This is based either on the attitude of "I paid for it and can get whatever I want" or "as long as it's free, let's get the best items".

For example, at Le Cellier there is a $22.50 difference in price between the lowest price adult lunch entree and the highest price dinner entree. Each restaturant receives a fixed dollar amount credit for each meal sold under DDP. Each restaurant has to make a profit.

As food costs go up it takes more money to operate a restaurant.

So as things progress more and more of the higher end cost items will vanish.

The signature restaurants do not have so much of a problem as they get paid double the regular restaurants.

If they ever do away with the Basic DDP within about six months you will find a lot more high end selections at all the restaurants.

 

[Colleen27]

I really don't think so. I think Disney has decided the market isn't there to support it, and with good cause - fine dining at Disney did generally result in great food served in half-empty restaurants, even at peak times.

The fact that V&A stays busy doesn't necessarily mean the demand is there to justify expanded offerings at that level. A lot of their business is in celebrations that are one-night splurges, rather than customers who would be interested in that level of experience every night of their trip.

And as far as doing away with the dining plan, I don't believe that for a second. The bar menus have been standardized and "dumbed down" just as much as the restaurant menus, as have the merchandise offerings, and there's no Disney booze plan or pre-paid savings for t-shirts and knick-knacks. All those changes are attributable to the same corporate vision that spawned the dining plans in the first place - streamlined production and mass appeal has replaced specialized products and niche marketing, not because of the DDP pricing/reimbursement but because that's the direction the current leadership feels will be most profitable for the resort as a whole.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I really don't think so. I think Disney has decided the market isn't there to support it, and with good cause - fine dining at Disney did generally result in great food served in half-empty restaurants, even at peak times.

The fact that V&A stays busy doesn't necessarily mean the demand is there to justify expanded offerings at that level. A lot of their business is in celebrations that are one-night splurges, rather than customers who would be interested in that level of experience every night of their trip.

And as far as doing away with the dining plan, I don't believe that for a second. The bar menus have been standardized and "dumbed down" just as much as the restaurant menus, as have the merchandise offerings, and there's no Disney booze plan or pre-paid savings for t-shirts and knick-knacks. All those changes are attributable to the same corporate vision that spawned the dining plans in the first place - streamlined production and mass appeal has replaced specialized products and niche marketing, not because of the DDP pricing/reimbursement but because that's the direction the current leadership feels will be most profitable for the resort as a whole.

But take CG for example. Don't you think, with as good as CG is already, what kind of a stretch would it be for them to innovate further, charge more (whatever the level demands) and with their view they could certainly command even more for special event "splurges" than V&A's. How could this, used judiciously, not work???

 

[Eeyore's Pal]

I think it's cyclical. The food was bad, everyone complained, and there was a revolutionary overhaul of all the restaurants. Disney became a food destination.

Then the dining plans came into play, mostly as a result of changes in the economy. Gradually the food has been dumbed down and choice limited because more people on the dining plans mean more people who just want a bargain and don't necessarily complain about quality. And so the dining plan becomes an even bigger money maker.

Now the complaints about selection and quality are gaining momentum. It will take some time, but eventually there will be a change. Back to better quality? One would hope so.

But there are other possibilities. How about two levels of dining plans -- Pay more and get a wider, higher quality selection? Regular dining plan gets four choices, all no more than $20, the "high" plan has 8-10 choices, all in the $25-$35 range. Non-dining plan guests just pay for whatever they want.

You never know what they'll think up, but I can guarantee they will think of something new as the tide turns.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I think it's cyclical. The food was bad, everyone complained, and there was a revolutionary overhaul of all the restaurants. Disney became a food destination.

Then the dining plans came into play, mostly as a result of changes in the economy. Gradually the food has been dumbed down and choice limited because more people on the dining plans mean more people who just want a bargain and don't necessarily complain about quality. And so the dining plan becomes an even bigger money maker.

Now the complaints about selection and quality are gaining momentum. It will take some time, but eventually there will be a change. Back to better quality? One would hope so.

But there are other possibilities. How about two levels of dining plans -- Pay more and get a wider, higher quality selection? Regular dining plan gets four choices, all no more than $20, the "high" plan has 8-10 choices, all in the $25-$35 range. Non-dining plan guests just pay for whatever they want.

You never know what they'll think up, but I can guarantee they will think of something new as the tide turns.

I think there should be some restaurants, like V&A's, just not available to dining plan options. There has to be some trade off, IMO. Want dining plan? Get the more generic dining. Want real innovation? Pay for it.

 

[Colleen27]

But take CG for example. Don't you think, with as good as CG is already, what kind of a stretch would it be for them to innovate further, charge more (whatever the level demands) and with their view they could certainly command even more for special event "splurges" than V&A's. How could this, used judiciously, not work???

The question is how much of a customer base Disney has in those "splurge" meals. Between the dress code, the no-children policy, and the expense, my guess is that it is a small enough target group to be satisfied with only V&A. And more importantly, I don't think it is a large enough group to replace the people who currently keep California Grill booked to the gills months in advance specifically because it is a nice - not spectacular, but quite good - restaurant with a fabulous view that doesn't require a suit & tie or a babysitter.

 

[Halle]

Booked 4 signature restaurants for our December trip. All restaurants have been favorites in the past. I read the entrees to DH tonight...8 or 9 entrees!! I was shocked and disappointed...Chateaubriand for 2 at Yachtsman has been gone for years because of the dining plan...IMHO. I wish they'd exclude signature restaurants from the plan.

 

[Colleen27]

I think there should be some restaurants, like V&A's, just not available to dining plan options. There has to be some trade off, IMO. Want dining plan? Get the more generic dining. Want real innovation? Pay for it.

But again the question becomes how many people would. Disney would rather a restaurant 100% full of lower-reimbursement DDP guests than a restaurant operating at 50% capacity with guests paying the full cash prices. Unless they see that the market for innovation is large enough to keep the restaurants full, I don't expect we'll see a change of course. And given the proliferation of crappy chain restaurants in this country, I think Disney's got their guest profile pegged - there is, after all, a reason there are dozens of Chili's and Applebees and Ruby Tuesdays for every one fine dining establishment in any given area.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

But again the question becomes how many people would. Disney would rather a restaurant 100% full of lower-reimbursement DDP guests than a restaurant operating at 50% capacity with guests paying the full cash prices. Unless they see that the market for innovation is large enough to keep the restaurants full, I don't expect we'll see a change of course. And given the proliferation of crappy chain restaurants in this country, I think Disney's got their guest profile pegged - there is, after all, a reason there are dozens of Chili's and Applebees and Ruby Tuesdays for every one fine dining establishment in any given area.

I totally understand what you're saying. This scenario is what got us to this point. I guess I don't have the faith you do in Disney's 'grasp on reality' though. I certainly agree that they know how to take money from the masses, which is generally speaking the most profitable way for them to go. But going forward I would hope that they wouldn't (shortsightedly) limit their ability to 'be all they can be'. I mean taking equal profits from all economic sectors makes more sense as a business plan than just catering to the 'crowds', IMO.

You're apprehension regarding the numbers are valid but like I said, expanding slowly, as opposed to the way the signature program was originally instituted would help to minimize the risk and taylor the product, no?

 

[MissionMouse]

Does anyone believe there is any remote chance that WDW will ever again attempt to add to what they have achieved with V&A's?

The signature program when it started was awesome, with first class chef's (with autonomy), sommeliers and wait staff. Creative theming and menu planning and such?

I know the signature program in its original concept basically failed (failed to maintain high enough seating capacity), but with the continued success of V&A's isn't there some room for another, then maybe another offering?

It seems like maybe WDW jumped into the signature program too fast (too many restaurants, too quickly) to build up loyalties. It seems that adding a few, one at a time would surely work.

Any thoughts?

Disney changed priorities, so don't expect signatures to return to standards held over a decade ago. Affordability is the focus now. New table service diners under the assorted dining plans are impressed, since they do not know what use to be. I do not see Disney embracing the quality standards of past and would expect tactful moves by Disney to reduce their operation cost while increasing the volume of guest transactions.

 

[ArthurIhde]

it will return i think

 

[katmittens]

I think most of the restaurants have lost their appeal. When the kids were younger we would always go to a medium level restaurant, Boatwright's, Captain's Grill which was Yacht Club Galley, etc, The food was great. It was not the same items like it is now, chicken, fish, pasta, steak, pork. My kids are older now, and we mostly do places like ESPN, T-Rex. Boma, and Cape May, or CG, Jiko, etc. When the disney restaurants were good we hardly ever ate in Epcot, now we find the Epcot restaurants to be better. This past trip DH and I went to Shula's. What a great meal. We will be back. We use to always do sit down for dinner. Now we find ourselves doing sit down for lunch and fast food more for dinner, or the ESPN or T Rex for dinner.

 

[Uncleromulus]

Would be nice--but I doubt it will happen. They actually HAD another V&A type restaurant (The Empress Room) and once V&A opened, it ceased to exist.
Here's a short story that may be of interest:

Back in the 70's we loved Papeete Bay. Great food, entertainment. Went regularly and noticed it got LESS and less crowded. One night it was SO bad the manager was outside handing out menus to people walking by. So I wrote a letter to the manager and asked what was going on. He actually called me back--the answer was that they found most Poly visitors were interested in cheap, quick meals, or buffet/character meals. Good food and entertainment was of little or no interest.

Then the menu changed. Prices dropped and it went mostly Chinese.

And Papeete Bay went right out of business to be replaced by that awful 'Ohana.

As for CG, there USED to be a great supper club up there--with name entertainment. But because of the view, they found they could pack a new restaurant (CG) nightly with adults and kids scrambling to see the fireworks.
So why do anything else??

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Would be nice--but I doubt it will happen. They actually HAD another V&A type restaurant (The Empress Room) and once V&A opened, it ceased to exist.
Here's a short story that may be of interest:

Back in the 70's we loved Papeete Bay. Great food, entertainment. Went regularly and noticed it got LESS and less crowded. One night it was SO bad the manager was outside handing out menus to people walking by. So I wrote a letter to the manager and asked what was going on. He actually called me back--the answer was that they found most Poly visitors were interested in cheap, quick meals, or buffet/character meals. Good food and entertainment was of little or no interest.

Then the menu changed. Prices dropped and it went mostly Chinese.

And Papeete Bay went right out of business to be replaced by that awful 'Ohana.

As for CG, there USED to be a great supper club up there--with name entertainment. But because of the view, they found they could pack a new restaurant (CG) nightly with adults and kids scrambling to see the fireworks.
So why do anything else??

Ah yes, 'The Top of the World' ... Closed in 1993.

Uncle, you ask "so why do anything else?" Indeed, is the obvious answer but I will say "because they can" and "because they should."

Colleen and I differ on the feasability, but I still contend that Disney's initial foray into fine dining was simply too much, too fast and the reason Disney should want to continue to test these waters now is future survival. Will the masses of guests always be willing to freely hand over their hard earned money for less and less? Or would it be wiser to slowly build back that reputation for finer things with the well heeled clientele and count on them as a portion of your businesses bottom line? Not turning your back on the profitable masses, of course, just not catering to them exclusively.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

Ah yes, 'The Top of the World' ... Closed in 1993.

Uncle, you ask "so why do anything else?" Indeed, is the obvious answer but I will say "because they can" and "because they should."

Colleen and I differ on the feasability, but I still contend that Disney's initial foray into fine dining was simply too much, too fast and the reason Disney should want to continue to test these waters now is future survival. Will the masses of guests always be willing to freely hand over their hard earned money for less and less? Or would it be wiser to slowly build back that reputation for finer things with the well heeled clientele and count on them as a portion of your businesses bottom line? Not turning your back on the profitable masses, of course, just not catering to them exclusively.

That would be awesome.
I hate that WDW feels like they can't have a dress code at signature restaurants. I hate that it is a crap shoot for whether there will be curtain climbing demon children running around our table every night. I hate that the menus are so similar. We spend 2 weeks on property in the summer. A little variety would be nice!

We are more than happy to pay for a nice meal, in a nice setting, with great food and great service. Once in awhile we manage to stumble on those things now, but it's definitely not a given. I do feel like the dining experiences are being dictated by "the profitable masses", which is unfortunate.

 

[prncess674]

Disney doesn't have to change. They pack people in and serve them mediocre cheap food at steep prices, which creates a great profit margin. They dumbed down the food because the typical WDW visitor is a pretty wholesome, middle income, middle America family who don't eat adventurously. They want a typical meat (steak, chicken, pork chop) with typical sides (mac & cheese, potatoes, green beans) and they may splash a few creative sauces or spices on it to match the theme of the restaurants.

There are many more posts on the DIS stating my [insert family member abbreviation here] is a picky eater, where can I take them verses the very few posts stating we are adventurous eaters and want to try unique fine dining.

 

[JerseyJanice]

I doubt that fine dining is something that most people look for in a Disney vacation.

We go on a Disney vacation primarily to enjoy the parks. If I were looking for a vacation filled with gastronomic experiences, I'd go to a place known for fine dining--a place like Napa Valley, for example.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Princess, of course they don't HAVE to change, but shouldn't they be the best they can be? Does the Disney standard now stop exclusively at profitability?

Janice, i think you'd be surprised and remember it wouldn't have to be anywhere near a majority looking for this standard. Let's face it if 10% WDW guests would patronize these places it would be worth it for Disney. Plus, as I've stated, their business model would be better served for the long run aiming to please multiple demographics. On their current road I see big problems in the future.