Will GREAT Dining Ever Return to WDW?

[mickey2000]

NO

 

[Colleen27]

I hate that WDW feels like they can't have a dress code at signature restaurants. I hate that it is a crap shoot for whether there will be curtain climbing demon children running around our table every night. I hate that the menus are so similar.

Those things bother me too, but I hate that the ideas for solutions are generally suggest the opposite extreme. I liked the idea of "business casual" dress code for the signatures, but I'd hate them being really dressy like V&A. I'm not sure there is an answer to ill-behaved children other than making certain restaurants adults-only, and as a parent with well-behaved kids who love signature dining I'd hate to see that happen.

I do think Disney has gone too far with streamlining menus, but there's obviously demand for it given the number of posts here asking about subbing basic sides, leaving off sauces, etc. We're a nation raised on kids' meals and fast food; there just isn't a ton of demand for unique, adventurous dining opportunities at what is primarily a family travel destination. I wish there was because it would suit my family, but we've been the "hang out house" in our neighborhood for enough years for me to realize that my kids really are unusual for liking "grown up" food and that many of the parents aren't a whole lot better.

 

[Colleen27]

Princess, of course they don't HAVE to change, but shouldn't they be the best they can be? Does the Disney standard now stop exclusively at profitability?.

I think we all know the answer to that. If not, take a good look at the quality of their merchandise now compared to a decade or two ago. I still use the backpack I bought at the Magic Kingdom on my high school graduation trip in 1997. It made it through 5 years of college (two different programs, years apart), 6 years of daily use as a diaper bag, and 4 trips as the bag we carry in the parks, and it is still in good shape. I bought my daughter a bag in the parks on our first trip and it didn't even make it through a year of kindergarten.

I agree that it is short-sighted, but I think the mindset right now is that they can get away with it because first timers and occasional visitors will never know the difference. I do think it will cause some problems in the long run, particularly if they continue to invest heavily in DVC which cultures a sizable base of repeat visitors who will notice the declines, but I think that kind of short sighted thinking is so much a part of American corporate culture/philosophy that it'll take actually seeing that customer base start to go elsewhere in large numbers to prompt any changes.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I do think Disney has gone too far with streamlining menus, but there's obviously demand for it given the number of posts here asking about subbing basic sides, leaving off sauces, etc. We're a nation raised on kids' meals and fast food; there just isn't a ton of demand for unique, adventurous dining opportunities at what is primarily a family travel destination. I wish there was because it would suit my family, but we've been the "hang out house" in our neighborhood for enough years for me to realize that my kids really are unusual for liking "grown up" food and that many of the parents aren't a whole lot better.

I can't disagree with this. We're lucky that our two kids grew up trying everything and liking most of it.

Regarding our fast food nation, this is certainly true but like everything only to a degree. We're also the nation that has embraced the celebrity chef's and their expensive dining experiences. So it seems to me there SHOULD be room for both.

 

[GeorgeG]

Something needs to change, and soon! Disney decided to compete with places like Universal and, unfortunately, they succeeded. Just about all Disney-run restaurants have now cheapened themselves to the point there is very little about them that is special. There is no reason Disney can't maintain a few good restaurants for people who appreciate good dining and keep them off the dining plans. There was a time Disney set the standard, not conformed.

 

[eliza61]

MY standard Disclaimer: My family owned a soul food restaurant for 35 years, I'm a bit cynical.

I doubt that fine dining is something that most people look for in a Disney vacation.

We go on a Disney vacation primarily to enjoy the parks. If I were looking for a vacation filled with gastronomic experiences, I'd go to a place known for fine dining--a place like Napa Valley, for example.

Not really true. there was a time when disney was noted for having great restaurants. And isn't dining in the parks and resorts part of disney's advertisements?

I think the problem most of us have with this excuse, is it is just that. an excuse. I look for good quality dining whenever I step into a restaurant whether it's at Disney, my home town of Sicklerville NJ or in Paris France. Do you actually go out to dinner and say, "It's totally ok if the food is mediocre?"
I never understand how people feel just because they are on the dining plan or free dining it's ok to serve mediocre food?


What's even more discouraging is as Uncleromulus and others have pointed out is that it is totally possible to do great food.


I find it very interesting when you ask people would they pay cash for ts at disney for the most part you get a resounding NO. That tells me that as long as the "perception" is that we get it free, it's totally acceptable to be lousy.


But as to answer the question. No I don't think Disney will ever have noteworthy restaurants again. Why should they? They fill them up with people who say "sure the food at CRT was lousy but I go there for the experience or "I got free dining so I really don't care about the quality" or the excuse above "I don't expect great food so it's ok if its mediocre, I'm at Disney"

My question is how low will we allow it to go? I wonder if the food was served in a dirty restaurant with rude wait staff, would we still say "I really do expect a clean restaurant, I go for the parks?

 

[crostorfer]

I suppose it's due to the fact that we are not frequent visitors, therefore have no basis for comparison, but I had two meals at signature establishments that I thought were truly great.

The Flying Fish has unique and inventive food that was really delicious, and my California Grill dinner was astheticly pleasing as well as flavorful.

My palate may not be as sophisticated as some people's, we are frequent diners of chain restaraunts such as Red Robin and Chili's, but I do appreciate better quality food when I have the chance. And maybe that is the point. We are a middle class military family. Combined, we make less than 6 figures a year. We are, most likely, Disney's target base for guests. There are more of us in that catagory there every day than not, so to us, these places that fine dining frequenters complain about being "good but not great", or "average", are more special, and in some cases, exceptional.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I suppose it's due to the fact that we are not frequent visitors, therefore have no basis for comparison, but I had two meals at signature establishments that I thought were truly great.

The Flying Fish has unique and inventive food that was really delicious, and my California Grill dinner was astheticly pleasing as well as flavorful.

My palate may not be as sophisticated as some people's, we are frequent diners of chain restaraunts such as Red Robin and Chili's, but I do appreciate better quality food when I have the chance. And maybe that is the point. We are a middle class military family. Combined, we make less than 6 figures a year. We are, most likely, Disney's target base for guests. There are more of us in that catagory there every day than not, so to us, these places that fine dining frequenters complain about being "good but not great", or "average", are more special, and in some cases, exceptional.

We aren't wealthy either but still have, over the years, educated our palate to a degree. I'm not fully there as V&A's is still not my cup of tea but I do appreciate that WDW offers this choice nonetheless.

FF is still a very good restaurant but IMO it's a good 25% down from its heydey (when Chef John Slate was there), although the prices aren't. CG I can't speak to.

I recognize that there are more guests who appreciate a good chain restaurant type meal down to fast food than real foodies and there is nothing wrong with that but my point is isn't there room for both? Just because I don't appreciate V&A's doesn't mean I wish for it to go away. I would think others could see that too.

 

[MyTwoPrincesses]

I don't think this board is the normal demographic. I found Dis while trying to figure out what the Dining Plan was a little over a year ago when I was planning our family's first trip. We went to WDW because we have kids and we wanted to take a special trip to see the Princesses and the Mouse. The Dining options were a bonus. Honestly they still are. I am not really looking for knock your socks of amazingness - we're looking for good meals that are kind of unique experiences. I guess it's because we live near a major city, so if we want a super fancy 5 star meal, we can get one pretty easily. But when at WDW, we want to choose places that the whole family can enjoy. Sure, Chef Mickey's is a choice for the kids, but every single choice has a very Disney reason behind it - generally because there's a character we want to see or a theme to check out. And some places really do have good food. We're still newbies but of 7 TS meals we didn't have a bad meal. Some were better than others, but all were very good. Definitely better than we got at local chain restaurants such as Cheesecake Factory or Macaroni Grill! Even Sci Fi, our least favorite, had food that was better than TGI Fridays. No, it's not 5 star cuisine, but that's not why we picked Sci Fi. The worst meal of our trip was actually at Pizzafari and it really wasn't any worse than the food at, say, Sbarro.

One day, we'd love to try the Signatures, but while the kids are little, there is no need. Further, we're having too much fun trying out various 1 TS meals. I guess I think that some people are forgetting that most Disney guests are families who will make one or two trips in their lifetimes. They are going to see Disney and they really aren't that into the fine dining. They also typically eat at places like Applebees and Friday's at home, not Le Bernadin. Or if they like places like that, they go to NYC or someplace renowned as a foodie destination.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I don't think this board is the normal demographic. I found Dis while trying to figure out what the Dining Plan was a little over a year ago when I was planning our family's first trip. We went to WDW because we have kids and we wanted to take a special trip to see the Princesses and the Mouse. The Dining options were a bonus. Honestly they still are. I am not really looking for knock your socks of amazingness - we're looking for good meals that are kind of unique experiences. I guess it's because we live near a major city, so if we want a super fancy 5 star meal, we can get one pretty easily. But when at WDW, we want to choose places that the whole family can enjoy. Sure, Chef Mickey's is a choice for the kids, but every single choice has a very Disney reason behind it - generally because there's a character we want to see or a theme to check out. And some places really do have good food. We're still newbies but of 7 TS meals we didn't have a bad meal. Some were better than others, but all were very good. Definitely better than we got at local chain restaurants such as Cheesecake Factory or Macaroni Grill! Even Sci Fi, our least favorite, had food that was better than TGI Fridays. No, it's not 5 star cuisine, but that's not why we picked Sci Fi. The worst meal of our trip was actually at Pizzafari and it really wasn't any worse than the food at, say, Sbarro.

One day, we'd love to try the Signatures, but while the kids are little, there is no need. Further, we're having too much fun trying out various 1 TS meals. I guess I think that some people are forgetting that most Disney guests are families who will make one or two trips in their lifetimes. They are going to see Disney and they really aren't that into the fine dining. They also typically eat at places like Applebees and Friday's at home, not Le Bernadin. Or if they like places like that, they go to NYC or someplace renowned as a foodie destination.

No offense but I think you're shortchanging those of us who do look to WDW to be creative. There are also lots of Floridians who frequent WDW regularly looking for a good meal at the end of the day or if they live close enough are willing to make the drive for a good night out. While we (loclas) don't make WDW their profits we do keep them going during the slow times.

Also, not everyone does live near a city of great food. In Central Florida that would be Orlando.

I'm just sad more people aren't more open to a variety.

 

[crostorfer]

We aren't wealthy either but still have, over the years, educated our palate to a degree. I'm not fully there as V&A's is still not my cup of tea but I do appreciate that WDW offers this choice nonetheless.

FF is still a very good restaurant but IMO it's a good 25% down from its heydey (when Chef John Slate was there), although the prices aren't. CG I can't speak to.

I recognize that there are more guests who appreciate a good chain restaurant type meal down to fast food than real foodies and there is nothing wrong with that but my point is isn't there room for both? Just because I don't appreciate V&A's doesn't mean I wish for it to go away. I would think others could see that too.

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood my point. I don't wish for the signature or higher end establishments to go away, by no means would I even want to insinuate that. My point is that for people who don't often go to places as upscale as the Cali Grill or the Flying Fish, that food IS great and fantastic and special. As I said before, my meal at the FF was one of the best I've ever had in my life.

If it was 25 percent better years ago with a different chef, I'll never know, I wasn't there to have a basis for comparison, we recently took our first mother-daughter trip there and my only other experience was 15 years before that and we only ate counter service on that trip.

I'm very happy with the dining at Disney. I ate a couple of places that were "blah", but I was exceedingly happy with my signature meals. To me, they WERE great.

So then begs the question, I suppose. Are people like me, who are actually happy with the food quality at finer dining establishments within the confines of Disney helping to feed the "Dining Quality Has Gone Downhill" monster?

 

[Paul in CT]

IMHO great dining is still there at the signature restaurants. It has just getting very expensive. It seems to me that the cash paying customer is now subsidizing "free dining" and the DDP.

We have always loved the Brown Derby and dined there for lunch last week. The food is still great, but the entrees at lunch are now priced at former dinner prices, $28-$40. I can only assume that dinner prices have increased proportionately. The TIW definitely helps to reduce the "pain", but in this economy I don't think the price increases are warranted except to maintain Disney margins.

 

[GeorgeG]

It's obvious that a majority of Disney guests aren't concerned about the quality of dining, either at WDW, at home, or anywhere as long as they get something relatively edible (and free food taste better, I guess). I keep seeing the reference to "signature" restaurants and after almost a quarter century of WDW dining I still have no idea what a "signature" restaurant is supposed to be. It has always been either table service or counter service and at every single one of them the food was at least above average for any similar venue anywhere in the real World. There's definitely no accounting for taste these days.

I see a lot of people sayig the free dining is the only way they can afford to take their families to WDW. I also see some posts saying the plan pays the restaurants a flat $15 for all meals. If that's true, why are OOP diners being charged $30 or $40 for that same $15 meal? Answer: to help pay for the free meals!

If WDW is going to be just another amusement park, why not make every restaurant in a WDW park counter service, but offer good quality food at reasonable proces. At least that way, everyone would get decent food at affordable prices and still get to eat in those so-called "signature" restaurants and not have to settle for crappy food just to get a photo op with a character. After all, it's about the experience, not the food... isn't it?

 

[katmittens]

I do agree that many of the signature dining places have good food, but the prices are extremely high for the meal. We are DVC members and go to the World two to four times per year and mainly eat out. Sometimes we do a breakfast or two in the room, but never a dinner or lunch. I do not mind paying for a good meal, but agree that the quality of food has gone downhill. It is not just the quality, but also the diversity of the food. The same choices. CG does change their menu more than others by seasonal changes. I think there are many reasons for the decline in the sig. rest. One being dress code. People in general do not care if they wear jean, tshirt and sneakers when they are paying a great deal for a meal. I think this takes away from the experience of a better restaurant. I go to Disney parks and wear shorts and tshirt and flip flops or sneakers, but when going to a better restaurant I feel people should get dressed a little better. I like Chili's and Red Robin, but I also like to get dressed and go out once in a while to a better place. I don't have a problem with children going to better restaurants. My kids always went with us and learned to behave whatever the restaurant, from CG to Kona to fast food. There will always be kids that behave and kids that don't. We recently went to Shulas on our last trip and thought it was great. Wonderful food, attentive waitstaff and nice surroundings. Prices were around the same as Disney sig rest, but of a much better quality. We will be back there again in February. Bottom line I don't have much faith in Disney changing their food for quality or price.

 

[Guy Incognito]

I do agree that many of the signature dining places have good food, but the prices are extremely high for the meal. We are DVC members and go to the World two to four times per year and mainly eat out. Sometimes we do a breakfast or two in the room, but never a dinner or lunch. I do not mind paying for a good meal, but agree that the quality of food has gone downhill. It is not just the quality, but also the diversity of the food. The same choices. CG does change their menu more than others by seasonal changes. I think there are many reasons for the decline in the sig. rest. One being dress code. People in general do not care if they wear jean, tshirt and sneakers when they are paying a great deal for a meal. I think this takes away from the experience of a better restaurant. I go to Disney parks and wear shorts and tshirt and flip flops or sneakers, but when going to a better restaurant I feel people should get dressed a little better. I like Chili's and Red Robin, but I also like to get dressed and go out once in a while to a better place. I don't have a problem with children going to better restaurants. My kids always went with us and learned to behave whatever the restaurant, from CG to Kona to fast food. There will always be kids that behave and kids that don't. We recently went to Shulas on our last trip and thought it was great. Wonderful food, attentive waitstaff and nice surroundings. Prices were around the same as Disney sig rest, but of a much better quality. We will be back there again in February. Bottom line I don't have much faith in Disney changing their food for quality or price.

re: dress code.... have to agree that people should be expected to dress a little better (i.e. - business causal at least) for "signature" restaurants. It doesn't take much of an effort to put on something nice (i.e. a pair of pants and a polo style shirt for guys, etc) before going to dinner. (and for the responses like 'I'm already in the park, I shouldn't have to go back to my room to change', then don't eat at the signature spots. There are plenty of other food options in the parks if you want to stay in the same sweaty clothes you've been in all day)

have to echo the previous sentiments about the dining plan ruining the food quality. Would it be so hard to label specific appetizers/entrees/etc as available options for the "free dining", while keeping some of the other items either unavailable or require an upcharge if they are selected? The dumbing-down/homogenization of menus throughout DW has been slowly spreading over the years (and seems to have really kicked in once Eisner was ousted), and I'm not holding my breath that it's going to reverse any time soon. We've supposedly been in a recession, yet the parks were jam packed when we were there last. At many restaurants, you can't just walk up and get a table 'cause they are completely booked. As long as people are still shelling out the $$$ to go, and the restaurants are full, they have no incentive to do anything differently (and might have more incentive to continue to cut back to further increase the profit margin)

 

[Cheshire Figment]

One thing that Disney has had for years which is not as popular as in the past. This is the Florida Resident Epcot After 4:00pm Annual Pass. There would be locals who would come specifically to go to dinner at Epcot because of the variety and quality of the restaurants.

For example, Akershus used to be a very unique restaurant, with many foods that were not "American Comfort Food". You knew that you were getting unusual dining. Now it has Princesses and poor quality food with almost no variety.

 

[Colleen27]

IMHO great dining is still there at the signature restaurants. It has just getting very expensive. It seems to me that the cash paying customer is now subsidizing "free dining" and the DDP.

We have always loved the Brown Derby and dined there for lunch last week. The food is still great, but the entrees at lunch are now priced at former dinner prices, $28-$40. I can only assume that dinner prices have increased proportionately. The TIW definitely helps to reduce the "pain", but in this economy I don't think the price increases are warranted except to maintain Disney margins.

I think that is absolutely true. Disney has to keep pushing menu prices higher and higher so that the dining plan still looks like a good value despite annual price increases, and those who don't have a dining plan or discount available essentially subsidize the DDP's popularity.

As far as Brown Derby goes, what you're seeing with the price increases is that they recently did away with the lunch menu. They now serve the same food, same portions, same prices from open to close, so lunch is priced exactly at dinner prices.

 

[Colleen27]

It is not just the quality, but also the diversity of the food. The same choices. CG does change their menu more than others by seasonal changes. I think there are many reasons for the decline in the sig. rest

But we see the flip side of that in another active thread right here on this same board - look how many people are upset by the menu changes at Jiko! Disney can't win on that count; either they don't change the menus and one group of people sees that as stale and unimaginative, or they do change the menu and another group of people gets upset over a personal favorite being cut.

 

[marivaid]

The bottom line seems to be, better to have a full restaurant of people paying $50 than a half empty restaurant where guests are paying $200.

Like others have said, everything has been dumbed down. It's easy to blame the DDP but the DDP didn't have anything to do with the merchandise getting crappier year after year, both in originality and quality. Yet I'm sure most guests are satisfied with the choice of merchandise Disney provides.

What brings the most dough to Disney isn't the locals who are looking for an exceptional meal once in a blue moon, it's the families who filll their hotels and their parks every day.

COULD they still have a few more high standards restaurants on property ? Sure, but they're not going to. Not if it's gonna take space that could be used to feed the masses, as some of you delicately call guests.

Taking myself out of the equation entirely because I'm hopeless at fine dining and I know it, my family is used to going to restaurants in Paris where the tab can easily reach $400 for lunch. I grew up going nearly every Sunday to restaurants where we would be served five or six courses, and the meal inevitably would end up with my grandfather going with the owner in his wine cellar to buy a few rare bottles. They know good food, and that doesn't keep them from enjoying that awful Ohana, for example.
Don't assume that just because some people enjoy Disney Dining as it is now, means that they were raised on McD, fish sticks and mac and cheese.

 

[sotoalf]

It's easy to say Americans are "unadventurous" and prefer fast food, but how then do you explain the explosion of sushi and Indian restaurants in the last ten years? The popularity of wine? Of "Food Network"? To me it says something that you can now buy fresh fruit in the theme parks and fast food options aren't just limited to burgers and chicken fingers. With all due respect to Uncleromulus, we used to frequent WDW in the seventies and eighthies, and no way was the food then superior to what was offered from, say, 1995 onwards. Too often in those days WDW attempted a sophistication its chefs couldn't achieve.

We haven't returned to WDW enough in the last three years to notice a significant drop in food quality, but on my last visit Citricos and Artist Point were as solid as they ever were (they're not very popular restaurants anyway). The farther off the beaten track you venture, the more likely the food will still hold up. Otherwise we have to remember that WDW has always been a theme park, and homogenized menus is What Theme Parks Do.