Why wait times have gotten crazy

[mesaboy2]

Two words: shell game.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Cold hard facts: Far more people are using FP+ than ever used FP-. Don't live w your head in the sand. Accept it for what it is and try to figure out new ways to get on what you used to. It's a new challenge but very doable. Or, believe what you want and just be mad at Disney for ruining your vacations.

By the way it doesn't take "officially released Disney numbers" to make heads or tails of what's going on here.

Also "releasing more" does not "increase wait times". It simply changes the percentage of standby to fastpass riders. The average wait time will still be the same. Before the wait time may have been 20 min now it's 30 min but now 1 out of 2 people rides it via fastpass in 10, making the average wait STILL 20 min! The rides, capacities, and desired number of rides per person are unchanged. Only the queuing system is changed such that more people now use FastPass to ride them.



Agree! Disney has every incentive to make the experience that much better for resort guests. Not to be taken to extremes, Disney would not just close the park to offsite, but little by little you know they will drive up the advantage to being onsite and reduce the value in staying offsite. It's just business. You go after your most profitable customers.

The problem is more FP means that the FP return waits on some items are now almost as long as SB used to be on top of SB increasing. So now you wait 20 min for your FP for something you waited 20 min in SB before and you wait 30 min in a line that you used to wait 20 min in SB so you've lost 10 min.

Even better in EPCOT and HS you've lost any ability to save time or reride the big rides. This had nothing to do with efficiency or guest experience and everything about rationing.

 

[Jennygt]

Wow there is a lot to take in as I read this thread. I have nothing to add as I have not used fp + yet! but I find this conversation fascinating . It is also refreshing to read where there are no snarky remarks, just a lot of info and different opinions. Thanks for the interesting read! Carry on

 

[dlavender]

The average wait time will still be the same. Before the wait time may have been 20 min now it's 30 min but now 1 out of 2 people rides it via fastpass in 10, making the average wait STILL 20 min!

I think this is how it is "supposed" to work. However, in reality, 20 minute waits are now 45 minute waits. 50 minute waits are now 95 minutes. FP waits vary from walk on to 20 minutes (this was the same with FP -). Maybe they should force people to ride Stitch at some point during the day to be able to use your FP's, to help distribute the crowds and waits

Based off of my recent visit to the MK, two things are apparent:
1) If you want to get it all in (20 rides) - RD is a must
2) SB waits are longer with FP +(see my examples of SM and ETWB)

Perhaps another "byproduct" of this new system is to convince people that the parks are really multi day parks. If waits overall are longer, and you don't RD, you can FP + a few rides, wait in longer SB lines, and come back tomorrow to hit up what you missed.

 

[chelynnah]

At Universal-you can't stay Value or offsite and obtain Unlimited Express Pass-which are only offered to the onsite Deluxe elite.

Yes you can. You can buy it. They are only offered FREE to onsite Deluxe. So offsite guests at Universal still have the exact same opportunity as onsite to skip queues, they just pay for it in a different way

Edit to add link to the Express Pass page on Universal's site. Note regular and unlimited options

https://www.universalorlando.com/Theme-Park-Tickets/Universal-Express/Express-Passes.aspx

 

[GaryDis]

At Universal-you can't stay Value or offsite and obtain Unlimited Express Pass-which are only offered to the onsite Deluxe elite.

That's not true. Both their Express Pass and their Express Unlimited Pass are offered for sale on their Express Pass web page.

 

[cygnusx1jg]

I'm not a math whiz, and really don't know much about compiling statistics, so I don't know if what I'm about to say makes any sense or not (you all in the know can judge), but would anything change for the better if the FP+ time frame was lessened from an hour to half an hour, or even 20 minutes?

 

[3DisneyFanz]

I'm not a math whiz, and really don't know much about compiling statistics, so I don't know if what I'm about to say makes any sense or not (you all in the know can judge), but would anything change for the better if the FP+ time frame was lessened from an hour to half an hour, or even 20 minutes?

That would definitely allow them to better plan on when people return and ensure they aren't throwing off schedules when a mass of people hit during their window. That said can you imagine the nightmare when a family misses a FP+ because lunch at the Crystal Palace was behind and they weren't seated in enough time to make their 20 min window?

 

[Planogirl]

At Universal-you can't stay Value or offsite and obtain Unlimited Express Pass-which are only offered to the onsite Deluxe elite.

You can't use FP+ at Disney if you stay at different resorts or offsite?

As others have already said, anyone can get unlimited Express.

Regardless of what is or isn't elitist, I don't think that different levels of paying consumers should move in reverse when it comes to what they get. There are those who advocate taking away FP+ from offsite visitors or just giving those who stay at Value Resorts only one or two. I don't agree with that. Passes alone are too expensive to give people less of an experience.

 

[Jennytoon]

It can't just be that more people are aware of FP+ than the were paper FP though. Paper FPs ran out too.

They have to be putting more FPs into the system than they did with the paper FPs. And the more they keep doing that, the more the Standby line becomes true Standby and the more certain rides move towards a reservation-system only.

Think about a very busy week like Christmas/NewYears...How do you give everyone 3 prebooked FPs? They must have to increase the number of FPs dramatically and those spots have to come from the standby line.

Fp's were plentiful during the week of Christmas last year. Yes hours are longer, so more fp's are available, but when you can easily switch fp's around first thing in the morning at popular rides mid day, you know they must have really upped the number of fp's for each ride when crowd levels are 10+.

So I agree. I think the number of fp's get dramatically increased during these busy times.

It's oft cited as an opinion that instead of FP+ Disney should have increased capacity. On the question of where the extra FP+ during X-mas week are coming from, it's quite possible that some of them are coming by changing the percentage of seats that are available for FP+ reservation. But it is also true that some of them are coming from exactly that, increased capacity. Longer park hours = increased capacity. Running all tracks on all rides that have multi-track capacity (which is a fair percentage of the E-tickets) = increased capacity. Running more cars per track (for rides that support it) = increased capacity. So it is not necessarily the case that to give everyone who is attending Xmas week 3 FP they must be taking spots from the standby line. I'm not saying they are not doing this, just that there are other valid explanations for where those extra FP are coming from.

Then of course, you might say ... why don't they just run the rides at full capacity all the time? Well, more capacity = more money spent on staffing. More capacity = more wear and tear. There are operational negatives to keeping everything full capacity all the time if it's not necessary. This is just my opinion, but I suspect that some of the reason many perceive that breakdowns are more common all over the World is that rides *are* spending a much greater fraction of their time running at higher capacity. If you're running only one track on Space Mountain 50% of the time, that's a lot more time to do small maintenance on the other track and keep it in good working order than if you're running both tracks 80% of the time.

 

[Disneylover99]

Running all tracks on all rides that have multi-track capacity (which is a fair percentage of the E-tickets) = increased capacity. Running more cars per track (for rides that support it) = increased capacity. So it is not necessarily the case that to give everyone who is attending Xmas week 3 FP they must be taking spots from the standby line. I'm not saying they are not doing this, just that there are other valid explanations for where those extra FP are coming from.

We usually go to DW during the summer. Parks are generally open late or to a decent hour. During the peak times in the summer when we have visited, rides have been running to capacity. But those summer crowds are nothing like those Christmas crowds IMO.

It was difficult to switch fp's on some days during the summer. It was surprisingly easy to switch them around the week of Christmas and availability was great, even mid day. Standby waits at Christmas were huge by late morning (as expected) but they didn't seem to move very fast.

I really think they significantly increase the number of fp's offered Christmas week and then adjust the fp/standby ratio as necessary for each attraction, and allow more people with fp through then usual.

 

[MrInfinity]

The problem is more FP means that the FP return waits on some items are now almost as long as SB used to be on top of SB increasing. So now you wait 20 min for your FP for something you waited 20 min in SB before and you wait 30 min in a line that you used to wait 20 min in SB so you've lost 10 min.

What IS rationing? It is improving the guest experience for guests who got no FP-'s at the cost of taking them from those who used to get a bunch. It is taking from the rich to give to the poor to use a Robin Hood analogy. No matter how derogatory you want to be in your spin of it, distributing 3 FP+'s to 4 guests each is better than having one guest take 12 FP-'s while 3 others get none. It just is. Even tho I was the one getting 12, and now I don't, I get why it's better overall. It is not Disney "out to get me" or "make my trip less enjoyable"... it is simply that they'd rather all guests enjoy the FastPasses that I used to get for myself. That makes complete sense.

Even better in EPCOT and HS you've lost any ability to save time or reride the big rides.

Do you mean YOU'VE lost the ability to save time or reride big rides? I certainly have not. We reride the big rides all day long. If we do and you don't, the real difference there is the person.

Based off of my recent visit to the MK, two things are apparent:
1) If you want to get it all in (20 rides) - RD is a must
2) SB waits are longer with FP +(see my examples of SM and ETWB)

So based off my recent visits,
1) RD is less of a must than it ever was.
2) SB waits are about the same.

Amazing how two people can go to the park and have completely opposite experiences.

If 90% now have no wait, and 10% wait longer SB times than in the past, wouldn't overall the wait time be less? Even though the posted SB time would be very high.

Than say 30% FP with no wait, and 70% SB with a long wait (even if not as long as now)?

In other words, if 100% were given FP+, there would be basically no wait at all-its must have a curve somewhere that decreases overall wait time per 1,000 rides.

Yep. Think about it like this. If, to do the same number of rides you used to do, it now costs 2 hours more of time (120 min)... there are anywhere from 5-15 other people out there, now riding in around 20 min less, each. Maybe it's 10 people saving 12 minutes each, or more of a distribution... some people saving 5, some people saving 30. Lots of other people are waiting less. It's hard to think back to what standby lines were back in the day of FP- because we never waited in them. I'd say I pulled an FP- to just about every ride I'd want to ride in a day. For example, I never once waited out a line at Space Mountain. Always got on it quick one way or another. However, guests were, by the millions, waiting in standby. Who were these people? Why did they not get a FP-? I didn't care, I'd rather they didn't cuz it was faster for me! But these millions of guests are now all riding quicker because they are picking FP+'s.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

What IS rationing? It is improving the guest experience for guests who got no FP-'s at the cost of taking them from those who used to get a bunch. It is taking from the rich to give to the poor to use a Robin Hood analogy. No matter how derogatory you want to be in your spin of it, giving 3 FP+'s to 4 guests is better than giving 12 FP-'s to 1 guest and none to 3 others. It just is. Even tho I was the one getting 12, and now I don't, I get why it's better overall. It is not Disney "out to get me" or "make my trip less enjoyable"... it is simply that they'd rather all guests enjoy the FastPasses that I used to get for myself. That makes complete sense.



Do you mean YOU'VE lost the ability to save time or reride big rides? I certainly have not. We reride the big rides all day long. If we do and you don't, the real difference there is the person.



So based off my recent visits,
1) RD is less of a must than it ever was.
2) SB waits are about the same.

Amazing how two people can go to the park and have completely opposite experiences.

If you're increasing wait times accross the board you're robbing from the poor to pay the rich. Prince John collects his $105 pushes you to Stitches Great Escape and laughs all the way to the bank.

Since you can't FP both Soarin and TT no one is riding things is EPCOT as efficiently as you could in the past. I know people go with the "single rider at TT saves time" but not everyone is cool with being split from their family. If you hit RD and ride Soarin and have a FP for it later it's possible but even doing that with FP+ means your RD SB is going to be longer than it was previously.

I'm also not sure why there is a belief that to enjoy the legacy FP you were boarding them up and got some amazing amount of them. We rarely pulled more than 3 a day because you didn't need them on a lot of things. Since SB lines weren't completely hosed you didnt always need a FP just because it was there. We started going back in the olden days when everyone just waited in lines so it's not a big deal as long as it flows. The problem is they've killed any semblance of flowing.

 

[dlavender]

So based off my recent visits,
1) RD is less of a must than it ever was.
2) SB waits are about the same.

Amazing how two people can go to the park and have completely opposite experiences.

It is amazing. I have never witnessed a 70 minute Buzz wait before FP +. I have never witnessed a 90 minute PP wait before FP +. I have never witnessed a 95 minute SM wait before FP +. Especially in October. But, if you have, then I guess all I can do is believe you....

 

[MrInfinity]

It is amazing. I have never witnessed a 70 minute Buzz wait before FP +. I have never witnessed a 90 minute PP wait before FP +. I have never witnessed a 95 minute SM wait before FP +. Especially in October. But, if you have, then I guess all I can do is believe you....

Maybe you're just now noticing the waits because before, you never had to wait standby. We never once rode Space Mountain (in the FP- era) without either it being rope drop or having a FP ticket to it. Yet millions of people waited standby while we skipped by every single time. These millions of people are now using FastPasses, so maybe you actually have to wait standby for a change. So it seems worlds longer, but really although you're waiting longer, many people are waiting less by using FastPass who would have waited standby for everything in the old days.

Don't you see? If you were not waiting for anything (like me) then FP+ is not designed to save YOU time. It is designed to save a little bit of time for everyone else that you were going past.

The thing is the people who track standby times have shown huge increases in standby times.

But people are now riding 3 things by FastPass that never used to so it's saving them time. Doesn't matter if the line to Figment went from 10 min to 20 min. Here's how it works:

Typical family:
FP-
Ride Test Track in 60
Ride Soarin in 60
Ride Figment in 10
Ride SE in 30
Ride Nemo in 10
Turtle Talk in 20
Total time: 190 min

FP+
All lines are longer? Ok let's go w that:
Ride Test Track (80 min sb) in 30 min by FP+
Ride Soarin (80 min sb) in 80 min by sb
Ride Figment (20 min sb) in 5 min by FP+
Ride SE (40 min sb) in 15 min by FP+
Ride Nemo in 10 (no change)
Turtle Talk in 20 (no change)
Total time: 160 min

So you see? A typical family that rides 6 things did so in about 30 min less total time. Multiply that by lots of people. Sites that are claiming standby lines are longer are missing the right statistic. What matters is "how long people have to wait". Since people are using FastPass now that never used to, they are actually waiting less.

 

[flicx]

[QUOTE="MrInfinity, post: 54636046, member: 441626"



So based off my recent visits,
1) RD is less of a must than it ever was.
2) SB waits are about the same.

Amazing how two people can go to the park and have completely opposite experiences.
[/QUOTE] The thing is the people who track standby times have shown huge increases in standby times. So it would appear that according to these groups neither of your statements are correct and the exact opposite is true. Based on real data! Of course if you are only doing the 3 fast pass prebook rides that would be true! The average guest however will not be experiencing that!

 

[Angel Ariel]

Maybe you're just now noticing the waits because before, you never had to wait standby.

It's quite an assumption to make that someone saying they never witnessed a standby time of x length during their previous trips just didn't notice because they didn't have to wait standby for anything.

I know on a previous trip we had, we noticed a 70 min standby wait for Jungle Cruise and we were all shocked by it, as we'd never seen a SB that long for JC before. We didn't ride it - not with a FP or SB. We decided the SB wait was too long, and we were on our way to Epcot anyway. But we still noticed the SB wait because it was such a surprise to see it so high.

So I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that someone noticing a high wait time now is because they never had to wait SB at all in the past because they were just breezing on through with FP. You don't even have to ride a ride at all for a wait time to stand out to you if you're surprised by it.

 

[dlavender]

Maybe you're just now noticing the waits because before, you never had to wait standby. We never once rode Space Mountain (in the FP- era) without either it being rope drop or having a FP ticket to it. Yet millions of people waited standby while we skipped by every single time. These millions of people are now using FastPasses, so maybe you actually have to wait standby for a change. So it seems worlds longer, but really although you're waiting longer, many people are waiting less by using FastPass who would have waited standby for everything in the old days.

Don't you see? If you were not waiting for anything (like me) then FP+ is not designed to save YOU time. It is designed to save a little bit of time for everyone else that you were going past.


But people are now riding 3 things by FastPass that never used to so it's saving them time. Doesn't matter if the line to Figment went from 10 min to 20 min. Here's how it works:

Typical family:
FP-
Ride Test Track in 60
Ride Soarin in 60
Ride Figment in 10
Ride SE in 30
Ride Nemo in 10
Turtle Talk in 20
Total time: 190 min

FP+
All lines are longer? Ok let's go w that:
Ride Test Track (80 min sb) in 30 min by FP+
Ride Soarin (80 min sb) in 80 min by sb
Ride Figment (20 min sb) in 5 min by FP+
Ride SE (40 min sb) in 15 min by FP+
Ride Nemo in 10 (no change)
Turtle Talk in 20 (no change)
Total time: 160 min

So you see? A typical family that rides 6 things did so in about 30 min less total time. Multiply that by lots of people. Sites that are claiming standby lines are longer are missing the right statistic. What matters is "how long people have to wait". Since people are using FastPass now that never used to, they are actually waiting less.

I never go to Epcot, so I can't argue with the above, but let's use MK as an example, since that is my park...

Typical family:
FP-
Ride SM in 60
Ride Splash in 60
Ride Buzz in 30
Ride POTC in 20
Ride HM in 25
PP in 50
Total time: 245 min

FP+
All lines are longer? Ok let's go w that:
Ride SM (90 min sb) in 20 min by FP+
Ride Splash (80 min sb) in 80 min by sb
Ride Buzz (60 min sb) in 20 min by FP+
Ride POTC (40 min sb) in 15 min by FP+
Ride HM in 50 (BIG change)
PP in 90 (BIG change)
Total time: 275 min

You've lost 30 minutes in your day...

 

[havoc315]

If you're increasing wait times accross the board you're robbing from the poor to pay the rich. Prince John collects his $105 pushes you to Stitches Great Escape and laughs all the way to the bank.

Since you can't FP both Soarin and TT no one is riding things is EPCOT as efficiently as you could in the past. I know people go with the "single rider at TT saves time" but not everyone is cool with being split from their family. If you hit RD and ride Soarin and have a FP for it later it's possible but even doing that with FP+ means your RD SB is going to be longer than it was previously.

I'm also not sure why there is a belief that to enjoy the legacy FP you were boarding them up and got some amazing amount of them. We rarely pulled more than 3 a day because you didn't need them on a lot of things. Since SB lines weren't completely hosed you didnt always need a FP just because it was there. We started going back in the olden days when everyone just waited in lines so it's not a big deal as long as it flows. The problem is they've killed any semblance of flowing.

This!

In the FP- era, I seldom got more than 2 or 3 fast passes, only got them when needed, and used them strategically.

Now, you virtually must book 3 FPs in advance. Since everyone is doing so, and with 70-90% of capacity being used to service those FPs, there is no such thing as a fast standby line anymore.

I'm guessing that the average visitor, still visiting the average amount of rides, still spends a similar overall amount of time in line.
Maybe they previously waited in a bunch of 10-30 minute lines, now they are doing 3 FPS, and a bunch of 20-50 minute lines.

If I previously would do Haunted Mansion with a 10-20 minute wait... But now, it is either "instant" with FP for 70% of guests, but 30-50 minutes for standby.... Is more being gained or lost?

The "old days"... In moderate crowds, might have 3-5 bad lines during mid-day. But even without FPs, there were another dozen attractions you could enjoy without significant lines. Now... It's 10+ attractions that have the bad lines, and very few that can be enjoyed without a FP or significant line.

And if 70% of capacity is going to FP, with 3 FPs per person, and most FPs gone by lunch.... How many attractions are people really enjoying? Seems to my math, people are probably only doing 5-7 attractions in Magic Kingdom. Use your 3 FPs, see a show/parade/fireworks, do 1 or 2 low/no line attractions (Hall of Presidents, Carousel of Progress), and maybe bear 1 or 2 of the long standby lines.

I wonder if FP+ has actually increased the number of attractions that an average guest experiences.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

As others have already said, anyone can get unlimited Express.

Regardless of what is or isn't elitist, I don't think that different levels of paying consumers should move in reverse when it comes to what they get. There are those who advocate taking away FP+ from offsite visitors or just giving those who stay at Value Resorts only one or two. I don't agree with that. Passes alone are too expensive to give people less of an experience.

Wow thanks, is that always been the case? I really did not know that, apologies in a great way. We actually do have a trip coming out and will check into that-since we stay at WDW and day trip over there.

Well maybe WDW will also start charging more for FP+. Heres hoping.

I could see the "standard" FP+ package and the "enhanced" package (similar to UNI-one offers more EP than the other).

Offer the "standard" to offsite, value and mods-and offer the "enhanced" to Deluxe and for sale.