Why can't I bank...

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by Dean
There is however fairly large and IMO, unfair, advantage to the owner that uses points to reserve something this year and then later cancels, banks and reallocates thus freeing up next years points.

But, how is that different than someone who borrows points to make a reservation and then banks points into the next year? They are also using two years' worth of points.

I agree that it does appear to be another "grey" area. My feeling is that DVC knows everything that goes on from folks who are running quasi-businesses renting points to people who are putting 5 or more in a room for 4 -- they just step in when and if it becomes a problem.

I'm sorry but I really thought that was how the system works since MS people actually reallocated points for me many moons ago before I would have a clue how to do it. If that was incorrect information, I'm sorry for passing it on.

 

[disneyberry]

<font face="times" size="+0">bub, i hope your situation is resolved. you definitely CAN choose to only bank part of your points now, and then later decide if you want to bank the rest.

i did want to comment on the slightly OT subject... about shuffling reservations around to use banked points. i have read this suggestion so many times on this board, and i never saw any written rules in the guidebook or POS that indicates it's against the rules. i'm very surprised to hear now that it might be against the rules. can someone kindly point out to me where they have seen a written notice that this shuffling is not allowed?

i do understand that you can't swap out when it's 2 different home resorts. but banked points is something different. it would be great if we could clear this up and get some kind of official answer on this.</font>

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by PamOKW
But, how is that different than someone who borrows points to make a reservation and then banks points into the next year? They are also using two years' worth of points.

Pam, the difference is that in my example, you are essesntially using the SAME points twice and at the same time. If you bank or borrow then use them, you're only using the points once, just in a different year. In the long run, the options would have to be suspended. I'm sure it's not done that much and it is obviously not enough of an issue to throw the program on it's ear, else it would have to be dealt with. Still, IMO, it is an unfair use of points and one that is in violation of my understanding of the rules MS currently use. That to reallocate one must first cancel Still, it is done commonly from my experience. This is not dealt with directly in the POS so it's one of those areas where DVC must define the rules.

 

[ILuvDVC]

I emailed Member Services to voice my concerns, and they agree that the rules are that you have to cancel a reservation first and then rebook it with different points. If there is a wait list, then that reservation would be lost and go back to the wait list. I haven't gotten my papers out yet to find where it states this, but I do remember reading about it when I first joined DVC. I wanted to make sure that I never got stuck with banked points.

The difference with swopping out banked points with current points is that, those banked points were not available at the time you made your reservation. If you wanted to use banked points for that reservation, the points should have been banked then.

However, if there is no wait list, then there is no problem switching in the banked points for current points.

If everyone is treated the same, than no one is penalized for having banked points. Every member has the option to bank points for a future reservation. If a member has to bank points they have a whole year to use those points. As long as there is inventory.

Anyhow, I'm quite satisfied that Member Service will take a look at this issue and have it addressed.

 

[SimbaCub]

With regards to using "next year's" points then later applying banked points, MS told me this is the ONLY way you can shuffle points as they are from the same resort. The only time you have to cancel and rebook is if you want to switch to a "non-home" resort after booking at 11 months in a home resort. Banking only involves shuffling around of points at the same resort thus doesn't penalize people. If I were to book at one of my home resorts 11 months out, say OKW, then at the 7 month point decide to book at a non-home resort, say BWV, then I would have to cancle OKW first--though MS does look to see if there are any openings so you don't lose your entire reservation. Once I cancel OKW then I have a new confirmation number at the 7 month window. When I shuffle banked points into a ressie, for example I have a Dec use year and travel in late Nov to early Dec, I will often call once I have decided I am no longer going anywhere in the current year I will then bank my curren VWL points and apply them to the extra days in Dec thus making that trip on as many banked as possible. The confirmation number stays the same and I haven't "taken" anything away from anybody as VWL is my home resort and I am only using VWL points. Could I have banked them earlier and saved the trouble? Sure I could, if I knew for certain I would not be taking any additional trips so that would then make it so I STILL have the 11 month priority at my home resort so shuffling between current year and banked points does not give anybody an advantage as long as it's at a home resort.

SimbaCub

 

[ILuvDVC]

Originally posted by SimbaCub
When I shuffle banked points into a ressie, for example I have a Dec use year and travel in late Nov to early Dec, I will often call once I have decided I am no longer going anywhere in the current year I will then bank my curren VWL points and apply them to the extra days in Dec thus making that trip on as many banked as possible.
SimbaCub

And, you can do this as long as there is no wait list. I believe it states that as long as there is not wait list, a current reservation can be changed. But, if there is a wait list for that resort for the time period you have the reservation, you cannot make any point changes. You can update your request, like no smoking, or near a pool, but the points cannot be changed. It would require a cancel and then a rebook, and once canceled, the person on the wait list would get the room. It's how it worked when I first joined DVC, it seems like Member Services changed things on their own....they are the ones that started allowing the home resort point change at the 7 month window...but, they have stopped that once Legal found out what was happening.

I've talked with Member Services and have found that some know the rules, and will tell me right off, if there is a wait list, you can't move points around. And, since I don't want to lose any of my days, then I don't mess with that reservation.

If you bank points and aren't planning on using them the next year, and already have a reservation booked and can't change things, then get on the wait list for that resort, and rebook with those banked points. That way, you are in line with others that are waitlisted for that room. If Member Services swaps points, they let you ahead of everyone! Which isn't fair to the people on the wait list!

 

[PamOKW]

Here's my problem with the scenario.

Let's use an April Use Year and I only own BWV points.

I call at 11 months and book December 2005 using my April 2005 points.

I use my December 2004 points for trips but have to cancel one of them. I now bank 50 points into April 2005. I ask to use these points towards my December reservation since this is the only trip I have planned for 2005.

A SSR Member called in September to reserve December 2005. They will be using non-home resort points that they are borrowing from the 2006 Use Year. Why do they jump ahead of me to use their non-resort, borrowed points for a last minute reservation?

To me, it's like making a change from using a credit card to pay for the reservation to paying cash. There was no change in the booking window guidelines.

 

[bub]

Thanks for everyone's help on this. My sister is the one who needs to call - it's actually her problem, but we're part of the same account - and she can't call until tomorrow. I will update the thread when I find out what happens.

PamOKW - I agree with what you are saying about switching the points, if they are all from the same home resort. Hopefully they will let my sister just bank the points she needs, so we don't have to go that route. We have a December use year, and usually call ahead for summer or fall, so have never encountered this problem before.

 

[PamOKW]

Bub -- I realize I confused the issue. Your original question about being able to bank partial amounts of points should be "yes". They've never made it an all or nothing decision in the past.

The secondary question about reallocating points just managed to get mixed in. You (or your sister) won't get the answer to that as part of your current reservation.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by SimbaCub
Banking only involves shuffling around of points at the same resort thus doesn't penalize people.

To say that subsituting banked points for current use year points is a "victimless" situation is not at all accurate. It affects every member who wants to make reservations from that date forward at that resort if those freed up points are used outside the 7 month window. It's essentially the same type issue as SSR buyers being able to book non SSR resorts during that 2 month window that other members couldn't do the reverse. The principles are exactly the same, the only difference was that SSR issue is a one time thing or at least a one time per new resort issue.

As I've tried to point out, this is not a hard and fast issue. The rules are currently straight forward and as ILuvDVC has posted them. MS can actually reallocate without cancelling even substituting non home resort points, they are just not supposed to do so.

 

[PamOKW]

I'm still not understanding where there is a problem or a disadvantage. Not worth worrying about too much but I will keep it in mind. I understand the problem with switching out different home resort points but not with taking from the same pot. The person who is borrowing points to make the same reservation is also using them "twice". I don't follow the problem with the banked points. Banking and borrowing are seperate from the rules regarding making reservations. If the reservation is made within those guidelines I don't follow the problem of how they are paid for.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by PamOKW
I'm still not understanding where there is a problem or a disadvantage. Not worth worrying about too much but I will keep it in mind. I understand the problem with switching out different home resort points but not with taking from the same pot. The person who is borrowing points to make the same reservation is also using them "twice". I don't follow the problem with the banked points. Banking and borrowing are seperate from the rules regarding making reservations. If the reservation is made within those guidelines I don't follow the problem of how they are paid for.

If you don't think it's a big deal, that's up to you. Here's the thinking though. Lets assume you have 350 points at BCV and book a 2 BR at the 11 month window for 2004 using your June 2004 points. You then book 4th of July for the following year using your June, 2005 points. You later decide to cancel the December reservation, bank the points, subsitute them for the July, 05 then use the freed up points to bank Xmas, 2005. While you eventually freed u the Dec, 04 reservation, it was not available to the same people at the time they needed it. It essentially keeps you a step ahead of essentially everyone else.

I do realize that to a certain extent this happens any time one makes then cancels a reservation. I would also agree it's far worse if they allow you to sub non home resort points. And as pointed out, many times one can do this legally anyway if any of the days in a reservation are not sold out. Just to be clear, I've stated "my" understanding of the current rules and acknowledged they are variably enforced. I've pointed out some inequities in the system and DVC itself must decide which inequities are acceptable and which aren't. There's no perfect system and DVC is no exception. The main thing I ask is that I can find out what the rules are and then work within them. Unfortunatley, I find DVC particularly difficult to work with in this area as they are consistently inconsistent.

 

[lat]

This is the first time that I have heard such restriction on banking. I had the feeling that it depends on whom you talk to. I thought that you can always just use current year's pts to book and then if you later have banked points into that use year, you can ask MS to "re-allocate" the points to use up the banked pts first, as long as the points are all from the same home resort.

Is this not true anymore?

 

[jaysue]

Thanks all for this enlightening thread. Always good to learn something new about DVC. I wonder if there are any members who systemically game the system like this thread is describing?

thanks
jaysue

 

[ILuvDVC]

The main thing I ask is that I can find out what the rules are and then work within them. Unfortunatley, I find DVC particularly difficult to work with in this area as they are consistently inconsistent.

Agreed! I wish Member Services knew the rules and followed them consistantly! At least they do seem to be inforcing the "Not swapping out non-home resort points" when there is a wait list.

I hope that by making Member Services aware of the situation, they will let all Member Service reps know that when there is a wailt list, a reservation CANNOT be changed, (Point wise, except to add on a day or cancel a day), unless you are willing to take the chance of it going to wait list and losing it.

Back in June 2003, I had a reservation for 2 grand villas and a 2 bedroom. I had some points that I had banked from my previous year. I wanted to swap those out, so that I didn't have to use them, but when I asked, there was a wait list, and I was told it could not be done, because the minute she canceled the one day, it would go to the wait list. I said OK, and managed to still use those banked points.

I hope Dean's explanation helped you understand.

By the way, I leave in 2 weeks for a 2 bedroom at the Beach Club Villas, must first week long stay there! I can't wait!

 

[PamOKW]

I guess I'm not going to see the reasoning on this one. If they want to make it the rule we'll have to live with it. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[bub]

Okay, last night my sister called and was able to bank just the 110 points. They were still advising her to bank all the points in the account (maybe because the deadline is May) but they let her just bank what she needed at this point. Too bad the first CM she spoke with couldn't have done this. Problem solved.

Thanks for all of your help, and the interesting discussion on reallocating points. These things get confusing and it's helpful to hear from others about their experiences.

 

[disneyberry]

Originally posted by ILuvDVC

Originally posted by Dean
The main thing I ask is that I can find out what the rules are and then work within them. Unfortunatley, I find DVC particularly difficult to work with in this area as they are consistently inconsistent.

Agreed! I wish Member Services knew the rules and followed them consistantly!

<font face="times" size="+0"> the issue i have with ILuvDVC's comment is that we don't know for sure what the rule is, since it does not seem to be documented anywhere in the Guidebook or the POS.

like Dean was saying, this is only an interpretation of the system. and apparently different MS CMs each have different interpretations as well.
this is all very confusing to those of us who have read suggestions from the more senior/expert DVC members on this board saying, "oh don't worry, you can ask MS to shuffle around the points so that your banked points are used."

obviously, i'm surprised/troubled to hear the protest... and i'm with Pam in that i fail to see that there is anything unfair with "taking points out of the same pot" so to speak. if the rule really is the way that ILuvDVC + Dean interpret, then DVC is less flexible than i originally thought it was... which is frustrating.

anyway, i agree that we need to know what the exact rule is, documented somewhere official and legal such as the POS; AND that Member Services should consistently enforce the rules as they are written. DVC has failed to do this on quite a number of issues... it's been incredibly frustrating!</font>

 

[ILuvDVC]

the issue i have with ILuvDVC's comment is that we don't know for sure what the rule is, since it does not seem to be documented anywhere in the Guidebook or the POS.

I emailed Member services and was told the rules are, if there is a wait list the reservation points cannot be changed....period!

I believe this has been a rule from the very beginning. This is not news to me. I've been a member since 1994, and have always known this!

DVC is still very flexible.....how often does one decide to bank and there is a wait list? It doesn't happen that often to me, unless I really bank at the last minute, but I never do that, because I don't want to take any chances of losing a reservation or points.

I don't think this is that hard to understand. Sorry some are having a hard time with it. Oh well, when it does change, I need to be aware of it, because I have many points that could lock up reservations for 11 months +

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by ILuvDVC
II have many points that could lock up reservations for 11 months +

That's the part I don't "get". You can only make reservations at the 11 month mark, not before if you are using only home resort points. The reallocation has very minimal if any effect on booking at the 11 month mark. "Locking" up reservations could be done by borrowing points and that carries no penalty.