Who REALLY makes out on DVC (Disney itself or the members/ownership)?

FutureWasYesterday

Earning My Ears
Joined
Jun 20, 2004
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This is really an economic question outside of people's individual decision of "worth" of DVC to them personally.

I have been fascinated by the recent rumor of a possible Contemporary location for a DVC resort.

As I see it, that piece of property (the current wing locations) is probably among the most valuable pieces of land at WDW. It borders the worlds most popular theme park and is an already establish "tried and true" built-in "resort spot".

Assuming this is true, why would Disney sell this spot to DVC and not just take this asset and take all of the profits for themself by building/expanding the current resort? Maybe I just dont know enough about DVC as an entity (does Disney directly profit other than at the outset of the agreement to "sell" to DVC)? Is the "prime/deluxe" resort market (as opposed to time-share space) maxed-out already in the best location at Disney?
 
DVC (or maybe it's actually the Development arm) is very profitable. IIRC, it is one of the more profitable units of the Disney corporation.

Think about it: Essentially, they are building very nice resorts with other people's money (ours) and earning a nice profit on it to boot! We pay the lion's share of upkeep and after 50 years, they get the whole thing back, free and clear. They can use/invest their own capital elsewhere. Sounds like a deal to me.



Best wishes -
 
Compared to the other WDW deluxe accomodations I don't see CR as a very desireable property to stay at. Apologies to those who like it but I know I would never book at Contemporary in it's current form. Maybe Disney is hoping DVC can infuse renued interest, traffic and revenue into a somewhat dated resort. If that is indeed their goal, the rumoured new wing would probably prompt me to try it at least once. So I guess you could say it would work on me.
 
It's also a fact that the CR is over 30 years old, has a very dated architectural style and will soon need a fair amount of $$$ spent to upgrade it. And while the CR has a special place in my heart (stayed there as a child in the early 70's), it is - IMHO - rather expensive for what you really get; and a lot of folks (including myself) almost feel cheated when they stay at the CR but can't stay in the Tower.

So Disney has the choice of putting a lot of $$$ in the North Garden Wing to refurb it as a resort, or level it and build a giant revenue source that - as has been pointed out - they get back in 50 years.

To me, it's not that tough a choice.
 

All excellent points.

You could also argue that Disney has pretty much constructed as many Deluxe resort rooms as the market will bear.

Contemporary
Grand Floridian
Poly
Yacht Club
Beach Club
Boardwalk Inn
Animal Kingdom Lodge
Wilderness Lodge

You could even add the Dolphin and Swan to the list. And those paying cash can get pretty good accommodations at SSR and OKW, too.

Assuming that WDW can raze the garden wing(s) without negatively impacting occupancy levels at the Deluxe class resort (it doesn't sound like there is a lot of demand for these particular rooms), it seems like a match made in heaven.
 
Originally posted by tjkraz
All excellent points.

You could also argue that Disney has pretty much constructed as many Deluxe resort rooms as the market will bear.
I think the same can be said for DVC at least by the time SSR is near completion.
 
Originally posted by Dean
I think the same can be said for DVC at least by the time SSR is near completion.

I would have to agree with you if we were talking about the Eagle Pines plans. But since this is about the possibility of the CR DVC, don't you think Disney could ask for "the moon" and get it ( and get it fast) from all of the eager current DVCers and future DVCers who would love to own on the monorail line?

HBC
 
Originally posted by Dean
I think the same can be said for DVC at least by the time SSR is near completion.

Perhaps.

Sales seem to be as brisk as ever. While it won't be their bread and butter, there will always be a steady stream of young families in their 20s and 30s discovering DVC for the first time. And, if all else fails, Disney can always try to rent "unsold" DVC rooms for cash as sales begin to slow.

Barring any cataclysmic changes in the enconomy it sure seems that sales will continue in the short term. Hard to tell whether it will be 5-10-20 years before sales slow to a disturbing level.
 
Regarding the OP's question... I suspect that who wins most depends on how many of the 80,000+ really know what they're doing.

Around these parts are extremely knowledgeable and savvy members. Few around here miss a beat or lose a point. But how many are there who are essentially clueless as to how to navigate their own membership and its perks? Annecdotally, we've read recently about members who routinely let points expire unused. There was even a report of one who'd not "gotten around to it" in six years! Disney/DVC makes a boatload on those members.

On the other hand, I bought a resale of a contract that was originally from 1993 according to my membership cards that arrived today. That former owner undoubtedly made money on the points themselves considering what I paid and what they were going for then. So perhaps it was she who made out best?

I guess I can't answer the question definitively, but it's a bigger question than it seems at first.

As for the tangent: I won't be able to send my money fast enough if DVC goes to the Contemporary.
 
Forgive me if this is more tangent than OP, but what are your thoughts on DVC "competing" with the Disney resorts. I'm sure that the sold points are far more profitable than the regular hotel rooms, but on the other hand, those hotels represent a major capital investment, and they're already having vacancy problems.

I know renting points for profit (or at least buying points with the sole intention of renting them) is hugely controversial on these boards, but when you do the math, it's a fantastic deal for the owner -- you can recoup your investment and get into pure profit far faster than Disney can by building new resorts and cutting demand for existing hotels.

Obviously Disney feels that's not an issue yet, but they can't keep building a new DVC resort every other year, since the demand is finite. How much longer can this go on?
 
Timeshares are in the neightborhood of 30-40% profit for the sales company. That is where the money is. Management is the next profitable issue. Resales are meager profits overall. As to competing for the other rooms on site, no doubt that's the case. One other issue is that as DVC continues to grow, it should have more pull for discounts and the like assuming DVC execs have the guts to do what's right for the members as is their legal responsibility. But once the points are sold, the pendulum swings back. That means on a day by day basis, more will be made on the hotels than DVC as they've already pocketed much of the money on sales and moved on.

I could see another smaller deluxe hotel type location like VWL or BCV but I'm just not seeing the expanded SSR plus EP, don't see it happening.
 
Who Really makes out on DVC ( Disney or Members)
IMHO both do, on different levels. Disney gets a whole load of cash upfront ( great for cashflow) and gets the properties back in 50 years ( or less) . The members get cheaper accommodation over the length of the membership. How can both parties make out of this? I hear you say. Well you're missing a vital third area of the equation and that's the other hotel owners and destinations those holiday makers may have used if they didn't have DVC. For example if a potential DVC member has $10,000 to spend on rooms over the next 10 years. Disney would get 60% of that money and "other hotels" would get 40%. If that potential member buys into DVC for $8,000 he is $2000 better off, Disney is $2,000 better off and the "other hotels" is out by 4k.

Now how this reflects on the Contemp ( although I'm far from convinced the idea flies for either Disney or DVC) is that despite it's fantastic position on Disney property the Contemp lags behind most of the other "premium" resorts by a fair way. It can be argued that by putting some of the Contemp ( the garden wing is I believe the most unpopular of the areas) under DVC resort status would remove that underperformer status from the contemp and slide it into the much more dynamic financial producer DVC area. IMHO if Disney is going to go to the costly lengths of flattening that area and rebuilding something more desirable it could do so outside the DVC umbrella as financially efficiently as it could within. I do think Disney has to be a little careful not to waterdown too much the "cache" of the monorail resorts. I think I could make a decent argument that a DVC monorail could lower the $$$ premium that can be charged for those resorts. For Disney to put an attractive and desirable DVC resort on part of the ground the contemp occupies would skew the P+L accounts a good amount. The land there if FAR more valuable than where SSR (or EP) will be built and the extra cost for DVC points may be just a stretch too far for purchasers. It would require some very "creative accounting" for DVC to be able to produce a profit on the levels of DVC's previous performances if it were to develop the garden wing of the Contemp.
 
Vernon, great response thank you. You seem to understand my question quite well....

IMHO if Disney is going to go to the costly lengths of flattening that area and rebuilding something more desirable it could do so outside the DVC umbrella as financially efficiently as it could within. I do think Disney has to be a little careful not to waterdown too much the "cache" of the monorail resorts. I think I could make a decent argument that a DVC monorail could lower the $$$ premium that can be charged for those resorts.

I supposed you need alot of bean-counters to really quantify this. The comtemp. regardless does need some serious renovation (although I do love the place) and I would be happy regardless if DVC foot the bill or Disney. This area has a lot of potential in my mind (a futuristic themed resort right at the door of the Magic Kingdom).
 
Originally posted by vernon
Now how this reflects on the Contemp ( although I'm far from convinced the idea flies for either Disney or DVC) is that despite it's fantastic position on Disney property the Contemp lags behind most of the other "premium" resorts by a fair way. It can be argued that by putting some of the Contemp ( the garden wing is I believe the most unpopular of the areas) under DVC resort status would remove that underperformer status from the contemp and slide it into the much more dynamic financial producer DVC area. IMHO if Disney is going to go to the costly lengths of flattening that area and rebuilding something more desirable it could do so outside the DVC umbrella as financially efficiently as it could within.

But the lingering questions is whether such a move would benefit WDW in the long run. I count 12 separate resorts with "Deluxe"-quality accommodations on WDW property (not including any of the DD resorts.)

If Disney were to redevelop the garden wing(s) for their own use, the argument one would have to make is that the renovated facilities would draw additional guests TO a WDW resort that would have otherwise stayed off-site. If a newly-renovated CR simply drew guests that would otherwise have stayed at AKL, BWI or WL, then it isn't worth the expense. Disney is just moving money from one pocket to the other (or one Income Statement column to another), at a construction / maintenance cost of millions.


I do think Disney has to be a little careful not to waterdown too much the "cache" of the monorail resorts. I think I could make a decent argument that a DVC monorail could lower the $$$ premium that can be charged for those resorts.

I'm not sure that I agree with that. I don't see how the typical cash-paying customer at GF, Poly or even the CR would look at a DVC wing and claim that their experience was being diminished simply because those pesky DVC members have access to the monorail.

What one could easily argue is that revenues will be lost due to DVC members no longer paying cash for weekend stays at Monorail resorts to get their "fix". That ties into the comment that alvernon90 made regarding the "harm" DVC inflicts on the other resorts by drawing away cash customers--both DVC members AND point renters. The monorail resorts may see a higher-than-normal decrease in cash revenues if DVC does build at the CR.


For Disney to put an attractive and desirable DVC resort on part of the ground the contemp occupies would skew the P+L accounts a good amount. The land there if FAR more valuable than where SSR (or EP) will be built and the extra cost for DVC points may be just a stretch too far for purchasers. It would require some very "creative accounting" for DVC to be able to produce a profit on the levels of DVC's previous performances if it were to develop the garden wing of the Contemp.

They can do that in two ways--both the per-point sales price AND the number of points required for a night's stay. I would fully expect to see a point chart higher than the current top tier (BVC, VWL, BWV Preferred).

In fact, there is a school of thought that DVC now markets itself to the masses to the point that it has lost some of the cache originally associated with membership. If they so choose, DVC could position CR to be the "elite" DVC location. They could take the quality of the rooms up another notch and start the points at 125-150% of the current levels for a night's stay.

...just thinking out loud...

I agree that the land on which the CR sits is some of the most valuable at WDW. But to allow those rooms decay (I've read some real horror stories) is the least-supportable position of all. ;)
 
Originally posted by FutureWasYesterday
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I have been fascinated by the recent rumor of a possible Contemporary location for a DVC resort.


This is nothing but rumor at this time.

ralphd:D :D :D :D
 
before WDW decided to let DVC buy DI - it was not performing well at all - WDW had put alot of money into this resort - it was just not attracting the guests.

the same could be say of the Contemporary - this deluxe resort, especially the wings, have a bad reputation. I think a DVC resort could make it a great hotel again. First of all WDW would have money to spend on the Cont if they sold the wings to DVC. They could make it a show place again.

in the 70's this was a fun and interesting place to stay at and visit. Now even with Chief Mickey's - it is still not attracting the guests that the Polyn, GF or even WL are.

Now the Tower would be left alone - the Cont generally does not have a problem filling the Tower. but hopefully some of the money that WDW makes will go to the Cont to upgrade it. that would only be fair.

If DVC does get the Cont (and only if) - and does a great job of fixing it up and selling it at a top profit (yea talking $125 to $150 per point). Maybe the other MK resorts might consider a DVC addition.

Dean sorry if the Polyn ever has a DVC resort it will sell out - fast.....even with the Cont....

Alot of DVC members have complainted about there not being one on the monrail the Cont could change that.
 
I know we're making out quite well. We now go to WDW twice a year, stay in top tier resorts, and need only to outlay the yearly maintenance. It definately allows us to visit more than we would have without DVC.

What can be bad about that..... :D
 
...why would Disney sell this spot to DVC and not just take this asset and take all of the profits for themself by building/expanding the current resort?[/B]


Because DVC is part of Walt Disney Parks and Resorts -- the division that includes WDW, DL, DCL, DVC and the royalties from TDL and the royalties and management fees (when they are paid) from DLP. Also included are Anaheim Sports, WDI and ESPNZone.

As others have said DVC is very profitable. There was a thread sometime ago where we discussed the construction costs versus the proceeds from the sale of points. And if I remember correctly it was a good deal for them.

Oddly enough they came up with a program that is financially sound for them -- earning the ROI that corporate wants and maybe more while at the same time giving the members a great ecnomic and vacation experience benefit as well.
 
I do not own DVC thinking of it though. Just returned from 8 nights from Cont. Our first visit & in N wing. A maint. man there liked to talk said S. wing rooms to be rehabed. 1/2 at time doesn't know when. N. wing coming down in 2006 to build a luxury highrise DVC. Will be completely seperate from Cont. I had heard this rumor before so maybe it's true coming from someone who works there. Wouldn't surprise me.
 
If they so choose, DVC could position CR to be the "elite" DVC location.

tjkraz, I completely agree with this. Just like Disney has its "flagship" resort (currently the GF but originally none other than the Contemporary), DVC might do this and jack up the costs . But hey, if they model it like the "best" DVC, then thats great. The only worry for me is that you cannot have DVC "out do" the tower, so presumably Disney would have to reinvest in the tower to be the jewel of the resort itself.


I agree that the land on which the CR sits is some of the most valuable at WDW. But to allow those rooms decay (I've read some real horror stories) is the least-supportable position of all.

AMEN to that. These buildings are eyesores (IMO). At the least, they could probably re-do just the wings (complete makeover) which would do the whole place wonders.
 



















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