When does Disney stop letting you enter attraction lines?

[mikedoyleblogger]

See, I don't think that's been the case. Up until the fairly recent past, the average parkgoer might have slipped into a line at closing with a "c'mon, let's see if we can still ride" mentality. Now, because of threads like this and park guides and whatever else information is out there, it's an expectation, practically a demand. More people are likely to do it. Just like someone posted above -- they like to put their shopping off until after closing. Sounds great until everyone does it, and as everyone tries to maximize their park time, there will be more people doing just that.

Not against the rules, not cheating, not bad behavior. Bu as more people know it's an option, and more people choose to use that option, WDW will eventually address it in a way that might seem detrimental.

You are incorrect about your "fairly recently" assumption. For the past 15 years that I've been visiting DLR, this has been SOP there. When I became a WDW vet, it was no surprise to find it SOP there, either.

 

[conniehar90]

We got into line at 7DMT on Friday at 10:58 PM. Posted wait time was 40 minutes - it only took us 10 to get to the ride. It was fun to do for a last ride.

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

The only thing Disney does better than making money is crowd control. Our exit from the park is being so effectively and efficiently managed so we do not ever feel rushed and never realize we are being managed. When Disney wants to clear a park they do it. Which is why I avoid closing time on a hard ticket party night. I do not like how that exit feels.

This this this this this. This is it EXACTLY. This is exactly what some people are not getting, or potentially refusing to get. Park schedules are based on revenue goals vs operational costs. Period. Disney knows how long it takes guests to leave without feeling like they're being thrown out of the park, and that if they don't feel like they're being thrown out, they'll keep spending money. Those ride stragglers who get in queues one minute before closing? Are Disney's strategy of stacking final purchases, to make sure that everyone doesn't show up at the shops at once on the way out and overwhelm them.

Let me tell you what would happen if people were forced to leave exactly at close in the manner that some previous posters think they should in order to "do CMs a favor": CMs would have their hours cut.

How any of this is hard to understand I really don't know.

 

[FCDub]

The last time I was at MK, I was on Splash Mountain very late in the night, just before closing. My log came around at about one minute til closing, and the cast member manning the boarding area asked if I wanted to ride one more time. That's easily one of the longest non-show attractions (time-wise) in the entire park, and they had ZERO problems letting me go again – they actually encouraged me!

 

[wilkeliza]

In actuality, very few of us know the real rules WDW follows when it comes to its employees. There are a lot of assumptions made that may or may not be accurate, or may have been true in the past but are not true now. We as consumers don't need to concerns ourselves with the way WDW treats its staff, but I do think we know much less about the way CMs are actually treated than we think we do. So when you make statements like that, you're just guessing. You may be right and I may be wrong, but you're making the statement based on innuendo and supposition, not actual facts. Or, in some cases, reasonable expectations.

For example, do you think CMs have an unlimited amount of time to finish their responsibilities at the end of the night? Or do you think they have to get things done by the end of their shift? I don't know the answer, but I've rarely, if ever, known a company that gives its employees an open-ended time allotment, and I doubt WDW has 15 or 20 (or 60) minute cushions built into the end of everyone's day.

WDW may schedule for X hours after closing, but a CM still has a time limit to finish their nightly responsibilities, and I'm guessing that time allotment is pretty close to the actual time required for the task. So if they're late in leaving a ride because people show up late, there's a good chance they have to rush (ie work harder) to get the things done that have to be done. Or they have to stay late to get things done, which may or may not be paid. If they are taking reservations until closing then they've scheduled the appropriate staff for that meal -- but they've no way of knowing how many people will end up in a line, so the CMs on duty are there until the end, regardless of when their shift was supposed to end. The idea of line-lateness being inconsequential to anyone isn't accurate, because someone either has to rush, or to stay late, or get reprimanded in situations where jobs aren't done in time because the line was too long at closing.

But that's not really the point. As I said early on, WDW allows it so there's no question as to whether it's within the rules. Of course it is. What I'm saying is that this is another example of a nice little perk WDW offers its patrons that eventually gets strategized for -- and as that happens more and more, expect WDW to eventually make some kind of change to mitigate it because they always do.

So, to be clear, I do not think it is cheating. i do not think it is wrong. I do not think it is an abuse of the system. But I do think the more people who plan on it -- the more people who take a perk and use it to an advantage -- the more likely it is that WDW alter its procedures to minimize the impact of the behavior.

Some of us posting are current or former CMs. I won't go into all the logistics but I can assure you I am very familiar with the procedures around closing the parks especially Epcot.

 

[HopperFan]

I've been at the MK for a hard close the day that Hurricane Charley was arriving. Transportation was a bit of a problem but not crazy because the park was not that busy. Most sane people stayed home that day, LOL.

Look at how quickly Disney emptied the parks for a non scheduled closing on 9/11. They could and would get guests out faster after closing if they wanted to.

Can't compare an emergency closing where they will use all resources then some to a day-after-day hard closing. It would cost them much more to implement and they would lose all the lingering shoppers. Just wouldn't make economic sense.

Transportation at park closing time is already a nightmare for most resorts these days, if everyone had to leave and get in those lines it would be a disaster.

 

[AngiTN]

Let me tell you what would happen if people were forced to leave exactly at close in the manner that some previous posters think they should in order to "do CMs a favor": CMs would have their hours cut.

How any of this is hard to understand I really don't know.

Exactly. The PP that are going on about how the CM can't get their jobs done because people stay in the park won't comment to the fact that if guests weren't in the parks those same CM would have fewer hours. Fewer hours, smaller paychecks. So in that line of thinking, the guests staying are a benefit to those CM, not a hinderance.

 

[whiporee]

Is this thread for real?

When disney wants you out, there will be no mistaking it. Rarely is that at the posted closed time but it does happen. Ride CMs are scheduled long past park close as they want the guest to be happy and leave excited that they got another ride. Some parks you can get an ADR minutes before close and the park will still be opened to let you out. The adrs I feel a little uncomfortable about as the guests around you start to disappear and I don't like the way it makes me feel but that has nothing to do with whoever decided they were going to seat people so late and the cms work there, they know that happens. I do tip much better though in that case.

And who said the park was even closing? It's just time for general admission tickets to leave. You can book the place all night long for enough money and a lot of companies, brides and people do. Disapalooza common gets a few hours in some theme park or area of a theme park. It's after close but the cms aren't going anywhere, they have more guests about to show up to ride these things. One of the best disney social groups rents the whole place twice a year for many hours after close..

And some of the logic in this thread is funny. Do you not stay for the fireworks that start at closing time? I've seen parades at closing start an hour late.. I've been at MNSSHP when rain was horrible and they had to fire off the fireworks by law anyway so they stayed open 2 extra hours and ran the parade and blew off the fireworks, after the party was scheduled to be over (great night, I really loved that one. Made after hours look crowded).

The conversation about crowd dispersal was a weird turn to the thread, because no on ever suggested WDW ever would try to force people out of the park. I never even said that WDW would/should stop people getting in line. All I said was that as more people strategize to get in line at the last minute, eventually there's a good chance WDW will alter its policy in one way or another, either by reducing hours to account for the extra time needed to empty the park, or creating a cut-off time for standby lines or some other policy. I expect the same kind of thing with rider swap, and we've already seen the Welcome Show change (I think because of RD's growing popularity). As little kindnesses become perks, perks eventually become expectations -- we've seen it all over the place. They stopped the Jawa's from trading a few times (I don't know if they've restarted that or not) because people read about it and then got upset when it wasn't offered them. The Magic thing a few years ago where guests were coming to CMs and asking for things rather than it being an unexpected surprise.I don't collect pins, but haven't they cut back on the allowed ones, or had the CMs starting to distribute only the cheapest versions? We could start a thread on things that have gone away because people started demanding. Towel animal are another example of something nice that becomes expected then demanded.

That's been my only real point on this thread -- once people start making the demand that they can enter any ride up until park closing ("and really, what's another couple of minutes, right? My kid's been wanting to do this all day, and it's only 10:03? No? You let them on and they were just in front of us! Whatever happened to putting the customer first?! WDW has lost its magic!") then WDW will adjust its policies accordingly. I don't know how they will adjust them, but I imagine they eventually will, just like they've adjusted all the others.

Again, you would be incorrect. It has always been the case. They have always kept the lines open till closing, meaning if you got in line anytime the lines were open you got to ride. They have never cleared the queue just because the park closed. You may not have known but that doesn't mean others didn't. I think you were more in the minority than you realize.

Didn't say it wasn't. But you'd have to admit that lots of times people see things others have gotten and demand them for themselves, and are frustrated and angry when it doesn't work out that way for them. Lots of things have always been the case and have gone away as guest expectations got too high and WDW didn't find the benefits to providing them outweighing the cost of providing them. This will eventually be another example of that, and when it does happen, there will be cries of how much WDW has changed and they're just in it for the money and they are cutting costs everywhere and Iger's a jerk. And all that may be true, but they'll be a smattering of blame to lay at the feet of people who just wanted more. Maybe not much, but some.

 

[AngiTN]

That's been my only real point on this thread -- once people start making the demand that they can enter any ride up until park closing ("and really, what's another couple of minutes, right? My kid's been wanting to do this all day, and it's only 10:03? No? You let them on and they were just in front of us! Whatever happened to putting the customer first?! WDW has lost its magic!") then WDW will adjust its policies accordingly. I don't know how they will adjust them, but I imagine they eventually will, just like they've adjusted all the others.

Disney has no problem telling people no. Ever tried to get in line for a character after the handler cut off the line? They say no. Doesn't matter if the folks in front that walked up seconds before got in and you didn't. You are 1 group too many and they will not let you in line. Doesn't matter how much of a fit you throw about it, or how you say your trip is now ruined, you can't get in line. So no, I don't think guests who beg and plead and complain will be the reason they make a change to how they operate the park at closing. They'll tell them it's closed and that will be that.

As for your other comments about this being a relation to the park hours, I do believe it is. I believe they set the official park closing with the thought that they will continue to operate for X number of hours following that closing. It's all part of the plan.

 

[whiporee]

Exactly. The PP that are going on about how the CM can't get their jobs done because people stay in the park won't comment to the fact that if guests weren't in the parks those same CM would have fewer hours. Fewer hours, smaller paychecks. So in that line of thinking, the guests staying are a benefit to those CM, not a hinderance.

That's only if you work under the assumption that a CM could go tho their supervisor and say "I know I was supposed to clock out 20 minutes ago, but there were extra people in line and I couldn't start close up until they were done," and their supervisor signs off on the extra time without consequence. That might be the case, but if it is then WDW operates differently than almost any other hourly organization I've heard of. Employees are expected to finish their work within a set period if time, and if they don't there can be some degree of consequence, especially in circumstances like retail or a theme park where certain things must be done before closing.

I'm sure WDW builds some post closing time into CMs' shifts, but since they've no way to know what a line will look like at closing, it would be hard for them to make it a standard amount, and if they do, the standard amount would be on the short time because no one wants to pay people to stand around waiting for the clock to move.

"Ever tried to get in line for a character after the handler cut off the line? They say no. Doesn't matter if the folks in front that walked up seconds before got in and you didn't. You are 1 group too many and they will not let you in line. Doesn't matter how much of a fit you throw about it, or how you say your trip is now ruined, you can't get in line."

Have you ever seen that happen with anything other than a person in costume, though? Those folks have OSHA regulations and such that requires WDW to limit their time. That wouldn't be the case with a ride.

 

[AngiTN]

I'm sure WDW build some post closing time into CMs' shifts, but since they've no way to know what a line will look like at closing, it would be hard for them to make it a standard amount, and if they do, the standard amount would be on the short time because no one wants to pay people to stand around waiting for the clock to move.

I know you'll never see the facts but yes, they do know what lines look like at closing. I bet you they can predict with in a 5 min accuracy how many guests are going to remain in a line on a given night. They know how to schedule their CM. I wish you'd at least listen to the CM in this thread who have posted that what you worry about is not an issue for the employees working

 

[wilkeliza]

That's only if you work under the assumption that a CM could go tho their supervisor and say "I know I was supposed to clock out 20 minutes ago, but there were extra people in line and I couldn't start close up until they were done," and their supervisor signs off on the extra time without consequence. That might be the case, but if it is then WDW operates differently than almost any other hourly organization I've heard of. Employees are expected to finish their work within a set period if time, and if they don't there can be some degree of consequence, especially in circumstances like retail or a theme park where certain things must be done before closing.

I'm sure WDW builds some post closing time into CMs' shifts, but since they've no way to know what a line will look like at closing, it would be hard for them to make it a standard amount, and if they do, the standard amount would be on the short time because no one wants to pay people to stand around waiting for the clock to move.

"Ever tried to get in line for a character after the handler cut off the line? They say no. Doesn't matter if the folks in front that walked up seconds before got in and you didn't. You are 1 group too many and they will not let you in line. Doesn't matter how much of a fit you throw about it, or how you say your trip is now ruined, you can't get in line."

Have you ever seen that happen with anything other than a person in costume, though? Those folks have OSHA regulations and such that requires WDW to limit their time. That wouldn't be the case with a ride.

Um that's exactly how it happens. If guests are in the store direct management knows and thus already knows their team didn't get to start closing tasks until later. So if it is 5 minutes nobody cares and goes about their business. If it is an attraction and they know safety protocols for leaving the attraction take say an hour but they are suppose to clock out in 15 minutes then their managers will call staffing and have their schedules extended for an hour plus walk time etc. So yes CMs know they have the power and the union to back them to say hey I can't do my job in this time I need an extension due to guests they'll give it. Heck they'll even extend breaks if you say hey I got my break but 15 people stopped and asked me a question and I didn't want to create a bad experience so can I get a new break?

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

...All I said was that as more people strategize to get in line at the last minute, eventually there's a good chance WDW will alter its policy in one way or another, either by reducing hours to account for the extra time needed to empty the park, or creating a cut-off time for standby lines or some other policy...

That's EXACTLY how Disney devised the operational plan for park closing in the first place, and that plan works EXACTLY as they planned it to work. If there are enough people in a ride queue to last until the shops close and the buses stop, they already do close that line. A PP made that clear with the example of the debut of 7DMT.

 

[whiporee]

Um that's exactly how it happens. If guests are in the store direct management knows and thus already knows their team didn't get to start closing tasks until later. So if it is 5 minutes nobody cares and goes about their business. If it is an attraction and they know safety protocols for leaving the attraction take say an hour but they are suppose to clock out in 15 minutes then their managers will call staffing and have their schedules extended for an hour plus walk time etc. So yes CMs know they have the power and the union to back them to say hey I can't do my job in this time I need an extension due to guests they'll give it. Heck they'll even extend breaks if you say hey I got my break but 15 people stopped and asked me a question and I didn't want to create a bad experience so can I get a new break?

Thanks for the feedback.

Guess I'm wrong.

For now.

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

"Ever tried to get in line for a character after the handler cut off the line? They say no. Doesn't matter if the folks in front that walked up seconds before got in and you didn't. You are 1 group too many and they will not let you in line. Doesn't matter how much of a fit you throw about it, or how you say your trip is now ruined, you can't get in line."

Have you ever seen that happen with anything other than a person in costume, though? Those folks have OSHA regulations and such that requires WDW to limit their time. That wouldn't be the case with a ride.

PPs have already pointed out that that is the case with rides. Ride queues have a hard closing time for guests to enter them.

 

[Nancyg56]

Look at how quickly Disney emptied the parks for a non scheduled closing on 9/11. They could and would get guests out faster after closing if they wanted to.

Of course they can, and under speciufic circumstaces, they do. What I think is not understood by some poster is that the Cast is well trained in moving people where they want them to go on a daily basis. This is a company that is incredibly skilled at managing an exit in a manner that not only makes guests comfortable,but is to the benefit of the company as well.

You do realize CM post here, right? You may want to go back and read the posts of the person you quoted when you said this. I believe they know more than you are giving them credit for knowing

Yup.

 

[Zbornak]

To answer both your questions, I don't know, but my first response would be to say they are trying to be nice and maximize everyone's experience. Pushing people out of the park goes against those ideas.

I know WDW has always had a policy of letting the last guest in line ride. But I also know that some people strategize to get into lines at the last possible second with the intent of being at the park after it closes. And I know some people wander and browse the stores despite the fact that operating hours are over. I understand WDW does not actively discourage this. But if they wanted to stay open later, they'd just stay open later.

And I also know that WDW has a tendency to identify behaviors like this and eventually look to curtail them. It's what happened with the disabled program. You could make the case it was the cause for EMM to be born. It could be the reason EMH's have been reduced by an hour at night because they know they have to filter late riders out.

Or not. I don't know, but I find it a valuable discussion.

I understand your point, but no one is taking advantage of Disney in this situation. I see nothing wrong with strategizing to be in the park after park close if it is within an acceptable practice that Disney has complete power to control. It's like a tax shelter. Or, like getting into the MK at 4 PM on a special event ticket. Maybe being in the park after close is part of someone's once-in-a-lifetime vacation to Disney, or maybe it's part of a tradition for a regular visitor. In the case of the infrequent visitor, he or she has created a unique memory of his or her Disney vacation and the frequent visitor probably spends a fair amount of his or her disposable income at Disney and/or any number of its companies. I think the take-away here is that Disney isn't a victim in this situation, has full power and control in this situation, and can institute an immediate change if necessary. Just my 2¢.

 

[whiporee]

I don't think it's an take advantage of situation. I'm not feeling sorry for WDW or CMs or anyone here. All I'm saying is that whenever a perk gets well known, and once it becomes something that people expect as normal, then WDW has to make an evaluation as to whether it's beneficial or not.

Here's my example: When I was in college I was editor of the school newspaper. I had my own office and everything, and one thing I did was keep a big flower vase filled with candy for people to come in and take when they felt like a sugar rush. Build a little morale, that kind of thing. But a few weeks in, candy started vanishing quickly and by the end of my second month, the candy jar would be empty every day. People were going in when I wasn't there and loading up. They weren't wrong or bad because they were just taking what I had offered. But after a while, when I'm going through a full bag of candy a day, I decided it wasn't worth it to keep refilling. When people asked me why, I kind of shrugged. Someone complained. I shrugged. The benefit I had offered actually became a thing people held against me a bit. That and my yelling

So to me, if too many people are getting into line later and later -- especially with the (until this year) escalating crowd levels -- and increasing CM time operating rides, then WDW will make a cost/benefit analysis. Even above, where welikeliza explained the CM situation, some department has an additional cost, and if that cost gets bigger than WDW wants it to be, they'll limit the cost somehow. We've all seen that happen in a lot of ways.

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

So to me, if too many people are getting into line later and later -- especially with the (until this year) escalating crowd levels -- and increasing CM time operating rides, then WDW will make a cost/benefit analysis. Even above, where welikeliza explained the CM situation, some department has an additional cost, and if that cost gets bigger than WDW wants it to be, they'll limit the cost somehow. We've all seen that happen in a lot of ways.

What you are suggesting in terms of rides has already been pointed out multiple times not being the case. Not only are ride queues closed at park close, but thousands of people would have to jump in them, all at once, to inflate park-wide waiting times in the manner you are incorrectly suggesting is theoretically possible to happen and trigger Disney to change the park closing procedures. If what you are suggesting is possible to occur were to happen, it would look like a marathon of guests running in unbroken streams of humanity towards and into the queues of every headliner. And I mean that absolutely literally. Most headliners have a throughput of 1,500 to upwards of 3,000 guests an hour. What you are suggesting at MK would require 15,000-20,000 people, or so, to rush the headliners just before midnight, to move the needle beyond what Disney already plans for in detail.

That. Doesn't. Happen.

And it can't happen either, as I and others have pointed out, because Disney will close a queue if it feels the line might grow beyond operational capacity to get guests out of the park at the real hard close.

You clearly haven't thought this through. Disney has.

 

[Number Six]

I don't think it's an take advantage of situation. I'm not feeling sorry for WDW or CMs or anyone here. All I'm saying is that whenever a perk gets well known, and once it becomes something that people expect as normal, then WDW has to make an evaluation as to whether it's beneficial or not.

Here's my example: When I was in college I was editor of the school newspaper. I had my own office and everything, and one thing I did was keep a big flower vase filled with candy for people to come in and take when they felt like a sugar rush. Build a little morale, that kind of thing. But a few weeks in, candy started vanishing quickly and by the end of my second month, the candy jar would be empty every day. People were going in when I wasn't there and loading up. They weren't wrong or bad because they were just taking what I had offered. But after a while, when I'm going through a full bag of candy a day, I decided it wasn't worth it to keep refilling. When people asked me why, I kind of shrugged. Someone complained. I shrugged. The benefit I had offered actually became a thing people held against me a bit. That and my yelling

So to me, if too many people are getting into line later and later -- especially with the (until this year) escalating crowd levels -- and increasing CM time operating rides, then WDW will make a cost/benefit analysis. Even above, where welikeliza explained the CM situation, some department has an additional cost, and if that cost gets bigger than WDW wants it to be, they'll limit the cost somehow. We've all seen that happen in a lot of ways.

It is normal. For 45 years and counting.