What's 'wrong' with Catholicism (dare we try to discuss without debate?)

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Not all Catholic churches are like this. We have a very active youth group, we have Mission nights where all ages do what ever it is for the month, rake leaves for the elderly, collect gifts for Toys for Tots, visit nursing homes, etc. We have a youth handbell choir and an adult handbell choir. We did not have to prove any of our children's Godparents are Catholic, although they are (well, were, Dh's sister is now Jewish). We also have several Bible Study groups, prayer groups, etc. We have a fairly large church with a reasonable staff so that does help some. It is hard when people lump all Catholic churches together because of a bad experience at one or two churches. The people make the church and you are going to find good and bad parishes in all denominations.

We have LIFETEEN--a very active youth ministry in our church as well as scripture study, small church communities (for more scripture study), and women of faith which do scripture based studies.

Sometimes it isn't the faith--it's just the parish....and like anything--you can shop around for the right fit.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Just an observation, but where is the thread that asks "What's wrong with Methodists?" or "What's wrong with Baptists?" or "What's wrong with Judaism?" Etc. I have yet to see those threads. Maybe I haven't look far enough back.

 

[Missy1961]

If I wanted to understand why Catholicism is bashed around here, what should have been the title? My OP was intended to convey that it's not my view but I've seen it come up here. I was trying to understand why. I think I've gotten some perspective on it and there's been a lot of interesting repectful dialogue. Yeah it's gotten a bit heated here and there but it's way more respectful than I expected it to be after 200 posts.

First, let me say I'm Catholic. And when I first read the title of your thread I got a sick feeling in my stomach. But since I've read many of your posts and have found them to be thought provoking & intelligent, I started reading it and realized what you meant. Perhaps if you had put wrong in quotes?

You see, I had been very upset that same day by the poster who mentioned that "Catholic are Christians gone bad." That really bothered me. And that same poster went on in that thread about how horrible Catholics were. And after reading some posts recently that said Catholics aren't Christians, etc., well I thought this thread was going there too. You see, I was brought up (and still live) in a very Catholic area. I went to Catholic school for 8 years. My dad worked for Catholic Charities (he was a social worker), and my uncle is a priest. My church community has been there for my family when we were in the school, when my sisters got married, when my mom was sick and when my mom passed away. Going to Mass on Sunday fills me with such peace. I had no idea (until I read posts here) that Catholics were terrible people. That we weren't going to heaven because we aren't saved. That we are anti-birth control so that we Catholics can just make more little Catholics.

So I know now that this thread wasn't about Catholic bashing, but I understand how some feel the bashing. I've felt it here sometimes.

Sorry this got long. I've wanted to post in this thread but just haven't had the chance. Thanks for listening.

 

[Disney Doll]

If I wanted to understand why Catholicism is bashed around here, what should have been the title? My OP was intended to convey that it's not my view but I've seen it come up here. I was trying to understand why. I think I've gotten some perspective on it and there's been a lot of interesting repectful dialogue. Yeah it's gotten a bit heated here and there but it's way more respectful than I expected it to be after 200 posts.

A thread entitled "What's wrong with Catholicism" leads to bashing.

I agree that the thread has been reasonably respectful for the most part, with the exception of a few expected "bashers".

Sorry, I guess I take it personally when someone automatically assumes there is something "wrong" with my religion. I prefer to focus on the positives that Catholicism brings to me, while being realistic about the failures of the humans involved in the Catholic Church.

Really, I have to learn to stay away from the Catholic threads and just read the fluff and pixie dust.

 

[Tink123]

There are other forms of birth control other than the "pill". The Catholic Church believes that the "pill" causes a spontanious abortion. Natural Family Planning is an acceptable form of birth contol that works if done correctly and can add an element of surprise to your life. You must have faith the God will provide, if He provides the child he will provide for the family.

 

[jimmiej]

Just an observation, but where is the thread that asks "What's wrong with Methodists?" or "What's wrong with Baptists?" or "What's wrong with Judaism?" Etc. I have yet to see those threads. Maybe I haven't look far enough back.

I've seen some Southern Baptist bashing on these boards. So far, no thread dedicated to such discussion...

 

[Wishing on a star]

Okay, three different topics here!

1. On the bashing... At some point nearly EVERY group has another group who disagrees. Just check out the Godless Heathen thread for some eyepopping bashing of any Christian religion. Catholics are no exception. To expect that everyone will agree with you and support the Catholic church, is really not realistic. (I know of another group here on the DIS, not a religious group, who also feels that they are above any questioning or disagreement.) And, while it is true that there may be the occasional bashing or inappropriate post. I would like to say that, on the opposit side, I have been vehemently attacked (bashed) for my simple disagreement with the Catholic religion.

2. Just because I do not believe in, or support, the catholic church, does not necessarily mean that I am misinformed, ignorant, or hateful, or anything else. As I have said, I disagree with the catholic church on broad core issues regarding Christianity, Salvation, etc.. (many issues mentioned on this thread) This is a valid disagreement. If I find catholic doctrine, tradition, and rhetoric to be contradictory to what I read in the Scriptures, then, I find them contradictory. No matter what spin is put on it.

3. On the subject of birth control. I am not a practicing catholic, but my understanding is that the official church stand on this issue is against birth control, no matter what the method. There was an excellent story on the national evening news the other night. It was all about a catholic (bishop or some such) in Africa, who is openly going against the Roman Catholic Doctrine by promoting the use of condoms (which do not allow for conception). Remember, this is an area where aids is epidemic, Even married couples are at risk. Also, this is a culture where the male is dominant, and the woman bears the consequences. Also, this is an area where people are starving. Every unwanted pregnancy is another mouth to feed. Another case of malutrition or starvation. Innocent women and babies are dying. The examples given in the story were truly horrifying.

 

[goofygirl]

slight digression here...


Can any Catholics here shed some light on Opus Dei? What little I know of Opus Dei is from "The DaVinci Code" and I'm not sure if its an accurate picture of them or not.

I know Opus Dei is an "ultraconservative" arm of the RCC.

The RCC in general seems very conservative to me, so what exactly do Opus Dei members do that is different from what "regular" Catholics do? I've looked at their website and I am still not clear on this. They "find God in everyday work", but what does that really mean?

 

[jodifla]

There are other forms of birth control other than the "pill". The Catholic Church believes that the "pill" causes a spontanious abortion. Natural Family Planning is an acceptable form of birth contol that works if done correctly and can add an element of surprise to your life. You must have faith the God will provide, if He provides the child he will provide for the family.

Nothing like a good game of Russian Roulette.

It's fine for Catholics to practice this roll of the dice, if they care too. (And by all the surveys, most don't.) My complaint is how they try to influence governments to OUTLAW ALL BIRTH CONTROL!

And it's funny how breast-feeding also has abortaficient properties...but you don't hear anyone trying to outlaw that. Or maybe that's next?

 

[cardaway]

NFP is birth control.

Take a pill/don't take a pill -or- make sure to have/not have sex at the right times.

Same intent - same thing.

 

[dennis99ss]

Not the same thing. One is abstaining, thereby no chance of conception; one is an artificial barrier.

 

[jodifla]

Not the same thing. One is abstaining, thereby no chance of conception; one is an artificial barrier.

So? End result is the same. You're having sex, just for fun! With no intention of getting pregnant.l...

 

[ahutton]

Nothing like a good game of Russian Roulette.

It's fine for Catholics to practice this roll of the dice, if they care too.

Actually, for us NFP was an effective way to decide when we were ready to have children. Ironically, when I was put on pills to help with a medical problem (and I was less conscious of the calendar and following what I knew as a result) we got pregnant.

Someone said they are not misinformed, ignorant or generally a bad person because they don't practice the same faith as Catholics do. We Catholics are also not misinformed, ignorant or generally bad people either. We just believe something different than you do.

In my RCIA class we were told (by our priest) that since NONE of us know with certainty what happens on the other side, we should just focus on being good people, and following what we believe to be right, and wish well for all others regardless of what someone believes.

 

[jodifla]

Actually, for us NFP was an effective way to decide when we were ready to have children. Ironically, when I was put on pills to help with a medical problem (and I was less conscious of the calendar and following what I knew as a result) we got pregnant.

Someone said they are not misinformed, ignorant or generally a bad person because they don't practice the same faith as Catholics do. We Catholics are also not misinformed, ignorant or generally bad people either. We just believe something different than you do.

In my RCIA class we were told (by our priest) that since NONE of us know with certainty what happens on the other side, we should just focus on being good people, and following what we believe to be right, and wish well for all others regardless of what someone believes.

Again, NFP is fine for people who want to do it. Most of the country, however, does not. And for most of the country, BCPs have a 97 percent success rate.

There is a note on another thread about the Catholic hospital system taking over as many hospitals as possible in one NJ county, so it can ban contraception and abortion services there. That's the problem for me. Not that Catholics practice however they want to practice, but that they are limiting MY choices.

 

[golfgal]

Again, NFP is fine for people who want to do it. Most of the country, however, does not. And for most of the country, BCPs have a 97 percent success rate.

There is a note on another thread about the Catholic hospital system taking over as many hospitals as possible in one NJ county, so it can ban contraception and abortion services there. That's the problem for me. Not that Catholics practice however they want to practice, but that they are limiting MY choices.

Our twins were born at a Catholic hospital. The hospital didn't "approve" of any kind of sterilization procedures. All the OB's still did them, they were just billed through their clinics instead of the hospital. I wouldn't worry about your choices being limited too much. You can always go to a different hospital however, a lot of those nuns are pretty good nurses!

 

[scubamouse]

First, let me say I'm Catholic. And when I first read the title of your thread I got a sick feeling in my stomach. But since I've read many of your posts and have found them to be thought provoking & intelligent, I started reading it and realized what you meant. Perhaps if you had put wrong in quotes? .

good suggestion - done

You see, I had been very upset that same day by the poster who mentioned that "Catholic are Christians gone bad." That really bothered me. And that same poster went on in that thread about how horrible Catholics were. And after reading some posts recently that said Catholics aren't Christians, etc., well I thought this thread was going there too. You see, I was brought up (and still live) in a very Catholic area. I went to Catholic school for 8 years. My dad worked for Catholic Charities (he was a social worker), and my uncle is a priest. My church community has been there for my family when we were in the school, when my sisters got married, when my mom was sick and when my mom passed away. Going to Mass on Sunday fills me with such peace. I had no idea (until I read posts here) that Catholics were terrible people. That we weren't going to heaven because we aren't saved. That we are anti-birth control so that we Catholics can just make more little Catholics.

I was jarred by the same post and it's what prompted my thread. Your family sounds similar to mine except that Mass never filled me with peace but I know it did/does for some of my family. We do get great peace and inspiration at our current church which is Episcopalian (DH calls it Catholic-lite)

So I know now that this thread wasn't about Catholic bashing, but I understand how some feel the bashing. I've felt it here sometimes.

Sorry this got long. I've wanted to post in this thread but just haven't had the chance. Thanks for listening.

thanks for the post! and I've learned a ton about both Catholicism and other Christian faiths on this thread.

As for NFP ... I completely agree that it can work well for some people but your charts and timing have to be perfect.

 

[cardaway]

So? End result is the same. You're having sex, just for fun! With no intention of getting pregnant.l...

Exactly. No difference between taking some days off and taking pills. The intent is the same, to have sex with the intent of not getting pregnant.

The "open to" argument is hogwash IMO, look at how many people still get pregnant on the pill. Obviously the pill is still "open" as well, and if you believe God could make a pregnancy happen, who is anybody to say that God didn't cause those pill babies?

 

[golfgal]

Exactly. No difference between taking some days off and taking pills. The intent is the same, to have sex with the intent of not getting pregnant.

The "open to" argument is hogwash IMO, look at how many people still get pregnant on the pill. Obviously the pill is still "open" as well, and if you believe God could make a pregnancy happen, who is anybody to say that God didn't cause those pill babies?

I totally agree with this and I am Catholic. I really have to say I do not support the Catholic view on birth control. There was a time and place for "go forth and populate the earth" but we have done that and now I think we need to step back and take some responsibility for taking care of our home (earth) and having too many people living here is not necessarily a good thing.

God also gave us free will to make decisions on our own and if we choose to have 1, 2 or 20 children, that is our choice. If God really wanted you to have a baby at a certain time there isn't anything you can do to prevent that, sorry.

 

[BelleMcNally]

I totally agree with this and I am Catholic. I really have to say I do not support the Catholic view on birth control. There was a time and place for "go forth and populate the earth" but we have done that and now I think we need to step back and take some responsibility for taking care of our home (earth) and having too many people living here is not necessarily a good thing.

God also gave us free will to make decisions on our own and if we choose to have 1, 2 or 20 children, that is our choice. If God really wanted you to have a baby at a certain time there isn't anything you can do to prevent that, sorry.

I agree 100%.

I'd also like to point out the Catholic Teaching of Moral Conscience Authority. What it basically states is that if, after considerable prayer, contemplation and council, you believe in you own soul/conscience something other than what the church teaches--you must answer to your own consciene, informed by the Holy Spirit, as the highest spiritual authority.
Therefore--if you've really prayed and asked for guidance on the matter, and feel, in your soul, that Birth Control is the right option for you, you are still able to receive the Eucharist.

Of course, the decision has to be in the bounds of reason. I.E. you can't expect to run a brothel full of 11-year-olds and be okay under Moral Conscience

 

[DisneyDotty]

Can any Catholics here shed some light on Opus Dei? What little I know of Opus Dei is from "The DaVinci Code" and I'm not sure if its an accurate picture of them or not.

My sister' SIL (let's call her M) is a member of Opus Dei, and I can tell you that DaVinci Code is NOT an accurate picture of the group. As a member of Opus Dei, M has devoted her life to God--is not married, gives a portion of her earnings to the group, and is obligated to share her knowledge of her faith/Opus Dei with those she comes in contact with. But she is very low-key about it, and basically just lives her life for God. She is not a nun, but rather just an overall good person. I'm sure there's more to it, but I just wanted to give you the idea that not all members of Opus Dei are radicals who will do anything to further their cause.