What's 'wrong' with Catholicism (dare we try to discuss without debate?)

[Wishing on a star]

Crankyshank,

I am not trying to take any tone of moral superiority here.

However, with this discussion, I think we have the basis of the whole catholic debate!!!

The OP asks, why do so many people, including other Christians, seem to have a problem with the catholic church?

To put it very simply, as I have stated several times. This open and admitted contradiction to the Scriptures is the very core reason.

As a Christian, I believe in the Word. ( And the Word became flesh....) As a Christian, I will believe in the words of Christ.

If any organization openly disregards and contradicts this, then it should be no surprize to see that there are those who will see a problem and disagree.

 

[DisneyDotty]

Okay, one more post here. I have to say that this has been a really good thread--although I understand how some may be offended by it. (Imagine a thread here titled "What's 'wrong' with people obsessed with Disney?" Same idea. )
I've learned a lot the past few days and have enjoyed clarifying some of my beliefs--hope I've not been too intolerable/insufferable.
Thanks, all, for keeping this thread fairly civil. And thanks, OP!

 

[Wishing on a star]

Thank goodness our church allows kids to sample unconsecrated host/wine before their big day!

So, what is the big difference then, between consecrated and unconsecrated host/wine???

 

[Bob Slydell]

So, what is the big difference then, between consecrated and unconsecrated host/wine???

One is the blood of Christ and the other is a really bad table wine.

 

[vivilasvegas]

When you guys go to Church, are you still offered wine? We were never offered wine, unless it was a Holiday Mass or something like that.

 

[Bob Slydell]

When you guys go to Church, are you still offered wine? We were never offered wine, unless it was a Holiday Mass or something like that.

Some parishes I've been to do, some don't (I guess it's the pastor's preference?). My current parish does offer it.

 

[Wishing on a star]

To funny Bob!!!

My question/point still stands.

If it is just 'representative' then there is no actual physical difference.

Very obviously, the catholic church believes that there IS a difference.
they do believe that it is transformed into the blood and body of Christ.

 

[Bob Slydell]

To funny Bob!!!

My question/point still stands.

If it is just 'representative' then there is no actual physical difference.

Very obviously, the catholic church believes that there IS a difference.
they do believe that it is transformed into the blood and body of Christ.

Despite my after my post, the answer is the same. There is no physical difference in the wine, but yes, it does become the blood of Christ.

 

[declansdad]

If some of the things that are written about Catholics were written about any other religious or ethnic group, the outcry would be huge. But the Catholics...ahhh...it's OK to bash them. They have all those pedophile priests after all.

There is lots of negative things said and written about all faiths not just catholics. Muslim certainly have taken their share of bashing in the last number of years, Jewish people have been bashed for centuries and strong evangelical based groups are bashed because of the stances they take. And this is only to name a few.

I don't think it has any thing to do with pedophile priests. You would be hard pressed to fiind any religion that hasn't had some sort of problem with its priests.

 

[scubamouse]

It's been awhile since I've been to Catholic Mass but ...

I grew up with transubstantiation. And yes sampling before first communion was helpful. It's a big concept for a 7 or 8 y/o brain! I'm not sure through all this thread whether that's changed or people now believe it's symbolism.

I do know Episcopalians believe it to be symbolism. Perhaps that's part of the reason why Catholics are so protective of the Eucarist - it's not symbolic.

(Imagine a thread here titled "What's 'wrong' with people obsessed with Disney?" Same idea. )

Disney Dotty - my BIL bashed us for being Disney fans and I still tell him how mad it made me at the time! Two kids later he's a convert.

 

[dennis99ss]

This thread was actually somewhat onpoint, until the likes of wishing on a star, vivilasvegas, jodifl became outspoken. You have taken the thread to one discussing why bashing occurs, to bashing. I am sorry you cannot accept our beliefs. Maybe instead of picking at them, in an attempt to cut them down, you should ask yourself why you feel the need to do so. Are you so afraid of them, and of your own beliefs, that you have to take steps to attempt to knock others down. Why do you feel a need to, as one poster indicated, feel morally superior? It just seems that your insistence on complaining about the Church is based on rules, etc. that you, as a person, do not agree with. Of course, Eve did not agree with the apple either, and you know what happened when she decided to follow her own ideas as to what was right/wrong.

 

[DisneyDotty]

To put it very simply, as I have stated several times. This open and admitted contradiction to the Scriptures is the very core reason.

As a Christian, I believe in the Word. ( And the Word became flesh....) As a Christian, I will believe in the words of Christ.

[Okay, here I am again. Last post, and I mean it! (Does anyone want a peanut.) See--this is what happens to my brain when I'm on these boards too long.]

See, this is where we (Catholics) have more in common with all other Christian faiths than one might think. I'd venture that 99.5% (or more) of RCC doctrine comes directly from the Scriptures (though the Catholic Bible IS a bit different than Protestant Bibles). But it's our interpretation of Scripture that sets us apart, and that actually has been the cause of much stife, war and debate as long as there has been a Bible.
IMO, there is no "correct" interpretation of the Word of God. I go with my faith, as so many others do, and hope for the best.

 

[jodifla]

This thread was actually somewhat onpoint, until the likes of wishing on a star, vivilasvegas, jodifl became outspoken. You have taken the thread to one discussing why bashing occurs, to bashing. I am sorry you cannot accept our beliefs. Maybe instead of picking at them, in an attempt to cut them down, you should ask yourself why you feel the need to do so. Are you so afraid of them, and of your own beliefs, that you have to take steps to attempt to knock others down. Why do you feel a need to, as one poster indicated, feel morally superior? It just seems that your insistence on complaining about the Church is based on rules, etc. that you, as a person, do not agree with. Of course, Eve did not agree with the apple either, and you know what happened when she decided to follow her own ideas as to what was right/wrong.

How is my outspokenness bashing?

I've made it clear that I'm fine with Catholicism....as long as no one tries to force me to practice it by either introducing laws to codify the practices for all of us or taking over the healthcare system, thereby limiting my choices.

 

[Bob Slydell]

See, this is where we (Catholics) have more in common with all other Christian faiths than one might think. I'd venture that 99.5% (or more) of RCC doctrine comes directly from the Scriptures (though the Catholic Bible IS a bit different than Protestant Bibles). But it's our interpretation of Scripture that sets us apart, and that actually has been the cause of much stife, war and debate as long as there has been a Bible.
IMO, there is no "correct" interpretation of the Word of God. I go with my faith, as so many others do, and hope for the best.

 

[dennis99ss]

Why is it ok for a private company to set rules as to what goes on in their business, but, not for the catgholic church to do the same. If a hospital is owned by a catholic organization, they have the right to make the decision. If people do not like the way it is run, they can go elsewhere. If there is no alternative, and people want a choice, start a new hospital.

Nobody is forcing you to follow catholic doctrine. But, if you go to the facility, you can be expected to be treated in accodance with it. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

And, I think your treatment of one organization, following its beliefs, as being against your rights, is bashig, because you seem to want to insist that they act your way, because their way is wrong, against your beliefs, etc. You put your rights above theirs.

 

[BelleMcNally]

Just to clarify--Catholics DO believe in and value the Scripture. If you read the Catholic Catechism, you will find that each entry references Bible verses that support the belief.

The fact that more time isn't given to Bible study at the elementary Catholic school level is unfortunate, to be sure. But when Catholic children are learning the Catechism, they are, in a way, studying the scripture, because the beliefs are biblically based--it's just seeing the Word through a certain lense. ALL religions see the Word through a certain lense--that's why so many various forms of the Bible exist.

(Well...that and the fact that certain rulers didn't want to pay to have every book printed--very expensive at the time...but I digress)

There are really two kinds of Catholic T/tradition. Tradition (with a capital T) refers to those elements of Tradition that cannot be abandoned and are binding for Catholics, such as our belief that Jesus is both human and divine, our loyalty to the Pope as Vicar of Christ and our celebration of the Eucharist as the center of Christian life. Small “t” traditions, on the other hand, include much that may be transitory, for example, certain Holy Days and devotions, rules of fast and abstinence, kneeling and standing in church,etc.

The Catholic understanding of Tradition, what it is and how it comes to regulate our changing life and understanding, really goes back to Scripture, which actually supports the idea of Tradition. For example, the Gospels tell us that Jesus himself was sometimes caught in the argument between the Pharisees and Sadducees. The main difference between the two parties was that the Sadducees wanted to restrict beliefs and rules to what was explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures, while the Pharisees held themselves bound by the cumulative wisdom of the ages that had been gathered in the Tradition. On this issue, Jesus took sides very emphatically with the Pharisees against the Sadducees. For instance, in the Gospel of Matthew (22:23-33) he supports the Pharisees’ traditional teaching of the resurrection of the dead.

Paul, in his writings (1 Corinthians 11:23, for example), states very forcefully that he is “handing on” what was “handed on” to him. This “handing on” is a term with a special meaning in the Jewish teaching of the time. It translates into Latin as traditio, from which our English word tradition comes. Paul is evidently convinced that the community of believers has a strong sense about what is important enough to be passed on to the next generation of believers. The Holy Spirit, he believes, will help the community understand what in its experience and customs—and in its vision of the redemption—should really be held on to. In fact, Paul carefully distinguishes between what he offers as his own opinion and what he sees to be the Church Tradition handed on to him.

 

[vivilasvegas]

This thread was actually somewhat onpoint, until the likes of wishing on a star, vivilasvegas, jodifl became outspoken. You have taken the thread to one discussing why bashing occurs, to bashing. I am sorry you cannot accept our beliefs. Maybe instead of picking at them, in an attempt to cut them down, you should ask yourself why you feel the need to do so. Are you so afraid of them, and of your own beliefs, that you have to take steps to attempt to knock others down. Why do you feel a need to, as one poster indicated, feel morally superior? It just seems that your insistence on complaining about the Church is based on rules, etc. that you, as a person, do not agree with. Of course, Eve did not agree with the apple either, and you know what happened when she decided to follow her own ideas as to what was right/wrong.

Please explain to me where I was outspoken and bashed Catholics. I stated something that I believed to be true (as I have obviously forgotten my Catholic school upbringing), was proven to be wrong, and then said so.

 

[sodaseller]

Despite my after my post, the answer is the same. There is no physical difference in the wine, but yes, it does become the blood of Christ.

St. Thomas Aquinas - accidents vs substance, dontcha know

 

[sodaseller]

Scripture is nothing more than oral tradition reduced to writing. There was no stenographer present during key events in Christ's life - everything was from the oral histories and traditions.

 

[Deb in IA]

Is their faith that of the Transubstantiation, the actual presence of the body and blood of Christ? If not, then it isn't their faith.

It is their FAITH in Jesus. The rest are just man-made rules . . . IMO.