What should be cut first?

[OceanAnnie]

Then your experience is telling you dead wrong. There is no lack of work ethic in the south. I cannot believe you would sit there in your high and mighty way and even say such a thing. Insulting an entire region of people has nothing to do with education nor does it add to the discussion of what should or should not be cut.

My husband worked in construction in several northern cities years ago. He hired very few crew members from the cities he worked in but chose to bring his own crew. He said that he got a better days work from the crew he brought with him and didn't have to go to the hassle of trying to train someone. He also had less problems with drug test coming back positive and workers not showing up. Sounds like he could make the same WRONG assumption about the north as you managed to make about the south.

I'm surprised by that assertion too. That was a broad, negative brush for both work ethic and education.

 

[MrsPete]

but I really don't feel the need for her to play 25 or so games in a season. I would be perfectly happy with our in conference games. I really don't NEED to have every night of the week occupied. Not to mention this would save them on busing costs for the away games.

I can see this argument . . . but I don't think all sports parents would agree. The more games they play, the better their chance of being seen by a college scout -- and a whole bunch of parents are convinced that their kids are going to get a sports scholarship. Also, in some sports (i.e., tennis and swimming), kids who've been to more meets or matches have had the opportunity to gain more points, and that can take them to state or regional competition.

Believe me, that idea would be met with resistance.

For example, all teachers' supplies are ordered through approved cataloges. Top price for everything. I would rather see the district contract with a Walmart or Staples to order supplies. I can't imagine that the cost would be anything near the catalog suppliers.

Everything in our supply closet has Staples' name brand on it.

I was using the 7 hours a day teachers are in their building to calculate their hourly wage, not just student time . . . I see what you mean about how my calculations were off regarding the non working days. However the teachers in this area are off most of June, all of July and 2-3 weeks in Aug. Then they are off one week for spring break and two weeks for winter break. That gives them more like 13 full weeks off plus weekends during their teaching weeks. Not 8.

How many jobs pay $32 an hour to start and offer 13 weeks off a year with no weekends and only a handfull of days where they are at their place of employment past 4PM? Then when you look at the excelent pensions they receive...... it just amazes me that the idea of doing some of their paper grading and other tasks during their off hours is so off putting.

I still think your calculations are off -- the numbers just don't add up to 180 days for the students otherwise. Our students go to school 'til mid-June, and they return August 25th. Teachers are there an extra week in each direction.

You're figuring a very high per-hour figure (I calculated mine just to see, and mine's much lower, even though this is my 17th year teaching), you're assuming the least possible time working, and you're calculating the maximum time off.

I'd like to stop paying for replacement stuff. I have a friend in high school. The kids there NEVER take care of the equipment they're given. In video production class they were able to fry EVERY SINGLE camera except one. Now they expect me as a tax payer to buy them more cameras.

That kind of thing absolutely should be addressed. My yearbook cameras tend to have a lifespan of about three years, which isn't bad considering the heavy workload they get.

Cut out anything frivolous. They don't need projectors and power point in every class room. We made do with over head projectors, white boards and other stuff, so can they.

I disagree on that point. Our future workforce needs to learn about technology, and many of them are sadly lacking. They think that because they can surf the web they "know computers". They need more in this field, not less.

 

[Pembo]

I haven't read this whole thread...I just have to say my brother is an asst superintendent. He is earning every dime he is making. He has long hours, lots of stress and has had a lot of schooling to get where he is. This summer he takes over as superintendent. It's not a glorious job, it's a lot of work.

For those who say teachers work less hours, no weekends and no summers....take a walk in the teachers's shoes. Lesson planning, grading work, etc does not happen during the day. Meetings, conferences etc with parents do not always happen during the day. Continued education, which is required, does not happen during the school day.

Some of what teachers do make seem like cake but in reality, it's a tough job.

The OP asked where should cuts be made? I really don't know and I do not envy those who have to decide. Whatever cuts are made will affect and upset many people.Again the superintendent is in a very difficult position..I'd have to say in my own kids schools, the heat can be turned down. It's always warm in those buildings.
Of course at my school, we could use a little more heat..

 

[friend of pooh]

I find all the generalizations in this thread amazing. I know most of you live in suburbia, but many kids do not. Many kids do not have families that care. Many do not have cars in their families, so no they can't just pick up, drop off kids to school or sporting events. Many families do not have money to buy lunch, so no they can't pay lab fees, sports fees, etc. Should a child from a poor family not be able to take an advanced science class because the parent can't pay....that class may be the child's way to a scholarship to college.

As for the "they don't need technology because we didn't have it" argument, then I guess you don't need a car because after all your great great grandfather didn't have one. Plus in many states the mandated standards include technology. These standards HAVE to be taught. All I ever hear is how ill prepared kids are for the work force. Well in today's workforce computer use is a necessity...and not just google. They need to be able to operate and use many different forms of technology. The fact of the matter is that kids today live in a digitized wold. Education has to reflect that to keep them interested or there will be even more drop outs than there are already.

 

[honugirl]

I find all the generalizations in this thread amazing. I know most of you live in suburbia, but many kids do not. Many kids do not have families that care. Many do not have cars in their families, so no they can't just pick up, drop off kids to school or sporting events. Many families do not have money to buy lunch, so no they can't pay lab fees, sports fees, etc. Should a child from a poor family not be able to take an advanced science class because the parent can't pay....that class may be the child's way to a scholarship to college.

As for the "they don't need technology because we didn't have it" argument, then I guess you don't need a car because after all your great great grandfather didn't have one. Plus in many states the mandated standards include technology. These standards HAVE to be taught. All I ever hear is how ill prepared kids are for the work force. Well in today's workforce computer use is a necessity...and not just google. They need to be able to operate and use many different forms of technology. The fact of the matter is that kids today live in a digitized wold. Education has to reflect that to keep them interested or there will be even more drop outs than there are already.

There are ways of making technology accessible that doesn't break the bank. A computer lab is an easy way to do that. They don't need a computer in every room all the time. There are libraries and other sources of computer use, it's not like kids don't have any access to technology. If they want it bad enough, they can seek it out.

Yes, I do think even the poor kids should pay technology fees. Because it will make them more responsible for the equipment they are using. Kids don't care if they bust something at school because they know they'll get another one. If I had my way, the stupid video production class my friend is in would be gone. Sorry, couldn't take care of your equipment. Too bad so sad. Go have a car wash or something to buy new equipment. Maybe next time you'll think about how you handle it.

We coddle kids to much these days. They expect everything to be handed to them. They don't work for anything because it's readily there.

 

[december]

I find all the generalizations in this thread amazing. I know most of you live in suburbia, but many kids do not. Many kids do not have families that care. Many do not have cars in their families, so no they can't just pick up, drop off kids to school or sporting events. Many families do not have money to buy lunch, so no they can't pay lab fees, sports fees, etc. Should a child from a poor family not be able to take an advanced science class because the parent can't pay....that class may be the child's way to a scholarship to college.

As for the "they don't need technology because we didn't have it" argument, then I guess you don't need a car because after all your great great grandfather didn't have one. Plus in many states the mandated standards include technology. These standards HAVE to be taught. All I ever hear is how ill prepared kids are for the work force. Well in today's workforce computer use is a necessity...and not just google. They need to be able to operate and use many different forms of technology. The fact of the matter is that kids today live in a digitized wold. Education has to reflect that to keep them interested or there will be even more drop outs than there are already.

AMEN! 80% of our kids eat free or reduced lunch. It is a whole different world here. Some are at school for their two free meals, some are there only for sports, and keep their grades up and stay out of trouble so they can play. Some of them graduate and realize what they have accomplished, and move on to higher ed. Too many don't, but at least they've had a chance at a basic education. And other than coach's salaries (which are still much lower than most people here are quoting), sports and other extras are self-supporting. Just in the last month I've bought a box of frozen chicken strips, cookie dough, tshirts, and pulled pork plates from various school groups. Teachers get hit hard with fundraisers!

Here, we don't have many "blocks". Kids live on roads, spread out, no sidewalks! There is no way to cut bussing.

We have band, football, baseball, basketball, and softball. That is it for extracurricular! There are no field trips. We get $100 a year for classroom supplies. There is one computer in every classroom, and around 20 in the library, which is only open 1/2 a day because the librarian is split between 2 campuses. I honestly don't know what there is to cut?

 

[MM27]

My kids go to private schools; but I've spent time in public school classrooms through my work. I cannot believe the "stuff" the public school classrooms have here - three computers in every classroom, a TV & DVD player in every classroom, furniture with cubbies and coat hooks in every classroom, multiple bulletin boards - do they really need all this stuff?

The multiple bulletin boards may not be necessary, but ours need to be changed every month. I buy my own paper, borders, letters, etc. for those too.

As far as the "stuff", you will find that for every public school that has a lot there is another that is lacking. Come visit my school. They had to close half of our cafeteria about a month ago because the ceiling was falling in. They did a temporary patch job, but it won't be fixed until the summer. Our gym floods every time it rains and the floor is so warped that they had to put cones and folding chairs on sections so that nobody falls. They actually are working on a repair now, but it means that the kids won't have a gym to use for the rest of the year.

I'm in NJ and we just had really bad rain storms this weekend. I was afraid to go into my classroom this morning because whenever it rains, the windows leak, a lot. Paint chips are constantly falling off the ceiling and walls in my classroom. My school is old, but parents in suburbia would never be okay with this.

I don't think people understand when they talk about schools and teachers that it is not the same everywhere you go.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't think people understand when they talk about schools and teachers that it is not the same everywhere you go.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head. People are not understanding that there just is not one solution that will work all over the country. Each school district will have to look within themselves for what they can cut for their students. And even within a district, what can be cut from one school not but not another.

Someone mentioned paying lab fees, tech fees and sports fees. Our school has a $20 workbook fee. There have been years that I didn't pay it until the very end of the year because it was a struggle coming up with an extra $40 when I had two in school. $40 is hard to come by for a single mom making minimum wage. There are still parents in that boat today and to add more fees on top would be a severe hardship. Also, I don't know that making mom and dad pay a fee will make the kid more responsible with the equipment.

Taking away the technology the students need is not the answer. Yes, we did without computers; but the whole world was different then. There is very little you can do without one. School cannot be the same way it was for many of us. Education has to grow and change with the rest of the world.

Furniture with cubbies and coat hooks? Where would you have them put their things and/or their coats? One year we didn't have hooks for the kids. Spent lots of money on lice shampoo that year. I even offered to purchase and put up the hooks.

For the poster figuring up hourly wages for teachers, do you seriously think teachers are only working the hours they are in the classroom? What about the extra time before school with car line duty? And the teachers that work at football games taking up money or in the concession stand? How about parent meetings after school? PTO? Fall festivals? Parent nights? And all of that is in addition to the work they take home. How many accountants go back and work fund raisers or "client" nights or some such? The fact is teachers do not receive compensation for many of the hours they work. Besides, how about adding in there how much they spend oop for copy paper, bulletin board paper, classroom rewards, learning games, pencils, pens, staplers, staples, rulers, glue, etc. etc etc. How many other professionals stock their offices out of their own pocket?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Education is more than just about textbooks.

Cutting extra programs is not the right answer.

I'm not sure what is, but it seems that is the trigger everyone goes for when they wish to cut costs.

Fees may be the answer, but that isn't fair to low income families.

And folks who pay their taxes will harp that hey are paying for a public school education.

When I had to buy paperback novels for English in 11th grade, my step-father railed me as though it were my fault. Did he call the school? No. He just whined and moaned. So when I had spare cash, I bought the book and when I didn't, I checked it out from the library. We weren't poor at that time. He just had different frivolous priorities.

 

[dsny1mom]

When do these teachers grade papers, talk to parents, prepare for class...?

It's clear that you're anti-union. Would you suggest getting rid of all unions including those for police officers and fire fighters? If these were eliminated as well, the government would be spending less on these professionals and that money could then be put toward schools.

The hour before students arrive and the hour after they leave gives teachers 10 hours a week. If that isn't enough time then homework for the teacher is necessary.

Yes. Unions needs to go. All of them. I would LOVE to see any savings from cutting out the the protectors of the poor performers go to the schools.

dsny1mom

 

[dsny1mom]

For the poster figuring up hourly wages for teachers, do you seriously think teachers are only working the hours they are in the classroom? What about the extra time before school with car line duty? And the teachers that work at football games taking up money or in the concession stand? How about parent meetings after school? PTO? Fall festivals? Parent nights? And all of that is in addition to the work they take home. How many accountants go back and work fund raisers or "client" nights or some such? The fact is teachers do not receive compensation for many of the hours they work. Besides, how about adding in there how much they spend oop for copy paper, bulletin board paper, classroom rewards, learning games, pencils, pens, staplers, staples, rulers, glue, etc. etc etc. How many other professionals stock their offices out of their own pocket?

I can only speak to the schools in our area. When my children were in elementary school the principal did the bus duty, not the teachers. Teachers in our area don't work at sporting events, unless they have a stipend and are on the coaching staff. Fall festivals, PTA meetings, etc aren't places you find teachers here, these are all parent driven and run.

Many professionals take work home, stay late, go in early and work 6 days a week. They do it because they are dedicated and understand that jobs are no longer 9-5 40 hour a week gigs.

If you are a teacher that goes the extra mile and does whatever it takes to get the job done and doesn't feel as if you should be compensated additionally for all you do, then I applaud you.

I agree most other professionals aren't paying for their own office supplies. However they do spend OOP to on their employees more often than you may think.

dsny1mom

 

[daughtersrus]

The hour before students arrive and the hour after they leave gives teachers 10 hours a week. If that isn't enough time then homework for the teacher is necessary.

Yes. Unions needs to go. All of them. I would LOVE to see any savings from cutting out the the protectors of the poor performers go to the schools.

dsny1mom

But I thought that you said that teachers have a 7 hour day at most. I don't know of any school where the students are in class less than 5 hours a day. Can you give us an example?

We will have to agree to disagree about unions.

 

[dsny1mom]

But I thought that you said that teachers have a 7 hour day at most. I don't know of any school where the students are in class less than 5 hours a day. Can you give us an example?

We will have to agree to disagree about unions.

Elementary starts at 9:10 and gets out at 3:10. The teachers arrive by
8:10 and are expected to stay until 4:10 but the building is void of teachers by 3:30 at the latest. Teachers get a 30 min lunch break. So they are actually in the building for 7.5 hours. When you deducted the 30 min lunch break they have a 7 hour day.

dsny1mom

 

[daughtersrus]

I can only speak to the schools in our area. When my children were in elementary school the principal did the bus duty, not the teachers. Teachers in our area don't work at sporting events, unless they have a stipend and are on the coaching staff. Fall festivals, PTA meetings, etc aren't places you find teachers here, these are all parent driven and run.

Many professionals take work home, stay late, go in early and work 6 days a week. They do it because they are dedicated and understand that jobs are no longer 9-5 40 hour a week gigs.

If you are a teacher that goes the extra mile and does whatever it takes to get the job done and doesn't feel as if you should be compensated additionally for all you do, then I applaud you.

I agree most other professionals aren't paying for their own office supplies. However they do spend OOP to on their employees more often than you may think.

dsny1mom

What you describe is nothing like it is here. The elementary school in our neighborhood has over 800 children. There is no way that one principal could do bus duty for the entire school and watch the children in the car pickup lane. Also, teachers are at school sponsored functions, not just at the elementary level but at the middle and high schools as well.

Teachers are required to be at work specific hours. They are not able to come in late and stay late. They can not choose which days they want off for "vacation". They can not choose to leave early on Monday and make up the hours on Tuesday. The comparison of teachers to salaried positions is apples to oranges.

 

[daughtersrus]

Elementary starts at 9:10 and gets out at 3:10. The teachers arrive by
8:10 and are expected to stay until 4:10 but the building is void of teachers by 3:30 at the latest. Teachers get a 30 min lunch break. So they are actually in the building for 7.5 hours. When you deducted the 30 min lunch break they have a 7 hour day.

dsny1mom

The teachers in our area are required to be in the building the specific times listed in the contract. Of course, most of them are there much longer because it take much longer for their rooms to get prepped, papers to be graded, lessons to be planned...then the hours listed in the contract.

 

[dsny1mom]

What you describe is nothing like it is here. The elementary school in our neighborhood has over 800 children. There is no way that one principal could do bus duty for the entire school and watch the children in the car pickup lane. Also, teachers are at school sponsored functions, not just at the elementary level but at the middle and high schools as well.

Teachers are required to be at work specific hours. They are not able to come in late and stay late. They can not choose which days they want off for "vacation". They can not choose to leave early on Monday and make up the hours on Tuesday. The comparison of teachers to salaried positions is apples to oranges.

The elementary school I gave as an example has approx 500 students. There are fewer than 30 kids that take the bus to school at that school. Most children either walk to and from school or are driven in a car.

You make it sound like teachers have the worst of all schedules when in fact they have one of, if not the best. IMHO.

Is it written in your contract that you are not to do any work outside of your building hours withput additonal compensatiom? If it isn't then IMHO it is liken to a salaried position. They pay you X to deliver Y without any additional compensation for the amount of time it takes to do the job well.

dsny1mom

 

[december]

The hour before students arrive and the hour after they leave gives teachers 10 hours a week. If that isn't enough time then homework for the teacher is necessary.

Yes. Unions needs to go. All of them. I would LOVE to see any savings from cutting out the the protectors of the poor performers go to the schools.

dsny1mom

Elementary starts at 9:10 and gets out at 3:10. The teachers arrive by
8:10 and are expected to stay until 4:10 but the building is void of teachers by 3:30 at the latest. Teachers get a 30 min lunch break. So they are actually in the building for 7.5 hours. When you deducted the 30 min lunch break they have a 7 hour day.

dsny1mom

I'm not saying this isn't the way it is done where you are, but do you understand that this is not the norm??? I arrive at work no later than 7:25, and have kids waiting on me. I leave no earlier than 3:25. We have to clock in and out, so there is no cutting out early. I don't get a lunch break-I eat with students. I get one 50 min planning pd a day, not 2 hours. I work an extra 3 hours after school once a term for open house. I work ballgames with no compensation. I'm not moaning and groaning about my job, I stated that I love it. I hate when people are misinformed, and I get really irritated when it is referred to as a part-time job!

 

[jlima]

Taking away the technology the students need is not the answer. Yes, we did without computers; but the whole world was different then. There is very little you can do without one. School cannot be the same way it was for many of us. Education has to grow and change with the rest of the world.

I couldn't agree more. But when EVERY classroom has three PCs and the library has 10 and there are two computer "labs" with 30 PCs in each lab . . . it's great that a school has those resources, but when every elementary school has the same set-up, that's a lot of computers!!

Furniture with cubbies and coat hooks? Where would you have them put their things and/or their coats? One year we didn't have hooks for the kids. Spent lots of money on lice shampoo that year. I even offered to purchase and put up the hooks.

I can understand coat hooks and reasonable furniture. But does every classroom in every school need metal wall lockers? Again, it's nice to have, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[honugirl]

Computer labs and technology fees are standard at colleges where we pay tuition. And those fees aren't going down, neither is tuition. I remember long hours spent sitting in the computer lab working on assignments and this wasn't back in the dark ages, this was just a couple of years ago.

I was a the community college recently and there are no computers in the classrooms except for the one with the power point projector. Students are expected to take notes, etc then go home or to one of the school labs or to the library or whatever to do their work.

We're in a recession here, they can't just keep spending on new and better stuff. You have to draw the line somewhere. You have to make do with what you have until things get better. I really, really, really want an iphone, but I can't have one because I can't afford it so I make do with my older phone. I can't just say, well, I have to keep up with technology so I'll get one anyway, the heck with the costs. Real life doesn't work that way.

Kids won't fall behind if they're using a 3 or 4 or 5 year old computer. They won't fall behind if they're using Windows XP instead of Windows 7. They'll figure it out. It wouldn't kill them to actually hand write assignments. It actually probably would do them good to get away from spell check and grammar check and actually spell for themselves. Cursive writing has gone by the wayside, it's a shame. I went to a store and the register was down and the girl couldn't ring any of us out because she didn't have a calculator and couldn't do the calculations on her own. That's sad. Sometimes it's good to get away from technology and back to basics.

 

[Kteacher]

More districts need to go back to core budgeting- start with what kids have to have in order to learn and move outwards from there.