What is your line in the sand?

[SmithSmith]

Thanks, Pooch.

It's very refreshing to have a nice relaxing exchange of opinions without being personally attacked or my opinions attacked.

 

[pooch]

I spend so little time at the resort. All I want is a clean room to sleep & shower in. So I can't see paying for more. But DH (not a Disney fan anyway) won't stay at a value so moderate or deluxe when he comes. We're bring the extended family next year - kids & grand kids & I think we'll try CBR again. The pool area looks like a lot of fun for the little ones. But I have no "stories" about Pop!! Hope you enjoy it too!

 

[pooch]

No attacks here. I'm afraid I fall on the universal side of this discussion but that doesn't mean you have to.

 

[SmithSmith]

Good to know about Pop! I seriously can't wait. Disney sprinkled extra pixie dust for us on this trip.

Thank you! I understand the EP argument, but it just doesn't work for our touring style. My husband has some minor injuries from being in the military. He can't stand for long periods of time without pain. So having short waits with FP, is going to work better than no waits and a few long waits.

I should also mention my husband is very frugal i.e. cheap. He does not want to pay for something he doesn't have to.

 

[SmithSmith]

..

Hmmm.... Curious.... Did someone see my post on that other thread?

I was hoping that would happen.

 

[connorlevismom]

Sadly - I think my line in the sand has been crossed and it really makes me sad.

We just returned from a 10 day trip and I tried SOOO hard to just let things go. In the end, I just could not and I think we are done for a while (we have AP's so have one more trip in June to make the AP worthwhile). A few things:

1. The bathrooms and general cleanliness of the parks. I remember when I would always comment on how clean everything was and that nothing looked run down. Sadly, that has changed. I am the one who started the bathroom thread and I did go to guests services a couple of times but got the sense that they were not even hearing me. I will be writing an email as well. They were just so gross and the general condition of the parks, bathrooms and rides has gone downhill considerably.

2. The CM's. Now, I have to eat some crow here because I defended them at the beginning of my trip in another thread that is now closed. But as the time went on, I just could not ignore it anymore. Everyone looks so unhappy to be at work and the younger crowed of CM's is just not professional in the least. I was waiting in line at the people mover and was the next one to go up the ramp. The CM that was at the bottom of the ramp just went ON AND ON about how he cannot stand the way the ones at the top are doing their job and how HE does a much better job at controlling crowds when he is working up there. Then he was making fun of the way one of the CM's near us was sweeping water into the drains. I just stood there in disbelief that he was badmouthing his coworkers to a guest of the park! Now - I am not saying that all the CM's were bad. We encountered quite a few good ones. But when people look like they hate their jobs, it makes it a little harder to have a good time.

3. The crowds. Over the last couple of years the crowds have just gotten more and more and now it is to the point where we just don't enjoy being there as much because of all the people. I love WDW and it's rides, but I am not standing in line for 60+ minutes for their rides. We rarely saw lines shorter than 30 minutes and even that is pushing it for the rides those wait times were for. FP+ was OK, but in general I do not care for it.

4. The last thing was our final day. We went to DTD for the morning to shop but it was so busy we decided just to leave and go off-site for lunch. Something we had not done at all during our 10 day trip. We went to Olive Garden, everyone in the family enjoys their food enough and it was quiet. At the end of the meal DH and I BOTH said that was the best meal and service we have had our entire trip. At the Olive Garden. That is pretty sad to say as we ate at quite a few TS and CS places and none of them could measure up to Olive Garden.

So after our trip in June, which we will be staying off-site for, we have decided that we are going to start going elsewhere for at least a year, if not two. We usually go 2-3 times a year to WDW, so that gives you an idea of how much we love WDW. It makes me sad to even type this out!

 

[ArwenMarie]

So after our trip in June, which we will be staying off-site for, we have decided that we are going to start going elsewhere for at least a year, if not two. We usually go 2-3 times a year to WDW, so that gives you an idea of how much we love WDW. It makes me sad to even type this out!

You might find staying offsite helps you find a happy medium...You'll still get to see the Disney parks, but you will probably spend less for same/better accommodations and you can find better-value restaurants, etc.

 

[metzgardesign]

For us, the line was crossed a while ago.

I liken the shift to the "frog in a boiling pot o' water" theory.

Things changed incrementally over the years as were saw it (prices increases exceeded inflationary comparisons; park improvement developments were slow in coming; and likewise, odd and painful crowd-management techniques were employed to deal with the stagnated offerings yet larger crowds; food qualities dropped off considerably; employees' attitudes-----while not universally worse----were not as good as they used to be, etc.)

It used to be that we dreaded the drive home from our WDW vacations, as the places we stopped at to eat were a noticeable "return to the real-world, less then WDW quality come-down," in terms of quality and service. That became less noticeable to us in later years.

We made a habit of traveling to WDW every year, at the same time of year. It was our main vacation of the year and something to look forward to very much. Even with our observations of less value-for-the-dollar, and decrease in good vibes while there, we overlooked that, as it was our place to experience our timeless favorites and escape the daily grind for a week.

The bean-counters took over too much. The "magic" (as it is referred to) was replaced with cost-cutting and lines.....much longer lines than historically (in our case, anyways) experienced. And the concept of scheduling ride or attraction experiences two months in advance (still an asinine concept to me....and antithetical to the idea of getting away from the real-world's time driven demands) becoming a standard practice.

Granted, we still feel a twinge of jealousy when our local friends go and visit WDW. But we also realize (and it is often reinforced upon those friends' return and reports) that the WDW of our younger days is gone. Replaced by an entity which, in our eyes at least, puts on a much less convincing mask of trying to conceal the profiteering with the customer experience.

Obviously, many people here are much more tolerant of the boiling water around them. And much more willing to pay skyrocketing prices for that hot-tub experience.

 

[Laketravis]

Thank you for a very articulate point of view.

For us, the line was crossed a while ago.

I liken the shift to the "frog in a boiling pot o' water" theory.

Things changed incrementally over the years as were saw it (prices increases exceeded inflationary comparisons; park improvement developments were slow in coming; and likewise, odd and painful crowd-management techniques were employed to deal with the stagnated offerings yet larger crowds; food qualities dropped off considerably; employees' attitudes-----while not universally worse----were not as good as they used to be, etc.)

It used to be that we dreaded the drive home from our WDW vacations, as the places we stopped at to eat were a noticeable "return to the real-world, less then WDW quality come-down," in terms of quality and service. That became less noticeable to us in later years.

We made a habit of traveling to WDW every year, at the same time of year. It was our main vacation of the year and something to look forward to very much. Even with our observations of less value-for-the-dollar, and decrease in good vibes while there, we overlooked that, as it was our place to experience our timeless favorites and escape the daily grind for a week.

The bean-counters took over too much. The "magic" (as it is referred to) was replaced with cost-cutting and lines.....much longer lines than historically (in our case, anyways) experienced. And the concept of scheduling ride or attraction experiences two months in advance (still an asinine concept to me....and antithetical to the idea of getting away from the real-world's time driven demands) becoming a standard practice.

Granted, we still feel a twinge of jealousy when our local friends go and visit WDW. But we also realize (and it is often reinforced upon those friends' return and reports) that the WDW of our younger days is gone. Replaced by an entity which, in our eyes at least, puts on a much less convincing mask of trying to conceal the profiteering with the customer experience.

Obviously, many people here are much more tolerant of the boiling water around them. And much more willing to pay skyrocketing prices for that hot-tub experience.

 

[CarolynU]

I suddenly realised yesterday that I am taking a DCL cruise out of Miami next May and for the first time ever I didn't even consider going to WDW first. However, when I get off in San Diego I'm planning to spend time in Disneyland and California Adventure.
I've let my WDW AP expire without renewing, and I haven't done that for 20 years.
I spent March this year at WDW and spent a long weekend in the parks at California in October. I was shocked at the difference. The CM's seemed so much happier. There was entertainment everywhere. There were incredible parades at both parks. They were clean. CS was good.
I'm sure that I will return to WDW within five years, but right now I'm moving on. I think WDW is still fantastic if you are a first time visitor or don't go often, and you love the idea of pre-planning, and everything is new and exciting. Or maybe others who are commando folks enjoy the changes, but for me it just doesn't work as well.
It's sad, but I'm sure that Disney won't miss me.

 

[Mome Rath]

Obviously, many people here are much more tolerant of the boiling water around them. And much more willing to pay skyrocketing prices for that hot-tub experience.

The metaphor doesn't quite fit though, as the whole point of the frog in the water is to cook 'im and eat 'im, thus ending his life. Disney has no interest in ending their customers; what I mean is the metaphorical end point is much different. Disney is a business for profit and one that wants to go onward for as long as it can, it has no interest in putting itself out of business, it doesn't want to kill the frog it wants to keep it, and multiply it.

I understand why you'd feel the way you do (and why others feel the same), but there are many of us that have been going to WDW since the beginning, and have seen the ups and downs of the company and the parks and feel differently, it's subjective. I've lived through changes I liked, and changes I didn't like, I stopped going to Disney in my teens, and then started again in adulthood, but I never mistook my subjective opinion as gospel fact, while calling my fellow Disney-goers who disagreed with me "frogs in the water." This reply is not really directed at anyone in particular, I just find it odd that people on all sides of the issues at hand mistake subjective opinion and subjective value judgments for something that can actually be logically argued in an almost moral sense.

 

[robinb]

The metaphor doesn't quite fit though, as the whole point of the frog in the water is to cook 'im and eat 'im, thus ending his life. Disney has no interest in ending their customers; what I mean is the metaphorical end point is much different. Disney is a business for profit and one that wants to go onward for as long as it can, it has no interest in putting itself out of business, it doesn't want to kill the frog it wants to keep it, and multiply it.

Well, that's her point. The frogs in the pot don't realize that things are starting to get hot and they don't jump out. Disney keeps them for as long as possible. Even if they do die, Disney doesn't care. There are plenty more frogs with young tadpoles who can be convinced that the hot pot of water is really a luxurious hot tub .

 

[Laketravis]

Ribbit.....

 

[metzgardesign]

Well, that's her point. The frogs in the pot don't realize that things are starting to get hot and they don't jump out. Disney keeps them for as long as possible. Even if they do die, Disney doesn't care. There are plenty more frogs with young tadpoles who can be convinced that the hot pot of water is really a luxurious hot tub .

Yep.

And Disney's marketers have even been brilliant enough to get people to pay for their own long-term boil pots.

 

[robinb]

Yep.

And Disney's marketers have even been brilliant enough to get people to pay for their own long-term boil pots.

I know! I own at two different DVC resorts .

 

[Mambo Junkie]

Yep.

And Disney's marketers have even been brilliant enough to get people to pay for their own long-term boil pots.

Not just that, on top of paying for their own boil pots, they're going to throw in a few desserts and some special seasonings and sell you a ticket for a special boil pot within the boil pot.

 

[a1tinkfans]

A significant cost increase, more frustration with fastpass ride availability and most of all, loss of the MAGIC feelings I still get despite all my visits. I think the MAGIC is actually most important, followed by fastpass and then price. Price is last because I'd just choose shorter visits.

Above To the original point of the thread

 

[Mome Rath]

Well, that's her point. The frogs in the pot don't realize that things are starting to get hot and they don't jump out. Disney keeps them for as long as possible. Even if they do die, Disney doesn't care. There are plenty more frogs with young tadpoles who can be convinced that the hot pot of water is really a luxurious hot tub .

The metaphor doesn't hold for a business wishing to make money, nor do I see it reflected in reality as I've observed it. As mentioned, my family and I have been around WDW, traveling long distances to get there, since the beginning, only meaning I've seen (and experienced) the changes made at Disney along the way. We are also business owners and entrepreneurs, the "boil them and eat them" model of business makes no logical sense as a formal objective argument. A subjective opinion? Sure, we are all entitled to a subject opinion about a lot of things, though it's helpful to realize it is just that; an opinion.

And, in my humble opinion, a business would not last very long if that was the sum total of their business model, especially one with as much press coverage (and message board coverage) as Disney. They care very much about write-ups and word of mouth, that's why they conduct extensive surveys and do things like read this message board, it is also why they make fixes and changes as needed based on feedback that is statistically significant.

 

[Laketravis]

They care very much about write-ups and word of mouth, that's why they conduct extensive surveys and do things like read this message board, it is also why they make fixes and changes as needed based on feedback that is statistically significant.

I hope that's true and they'll stop building lame duck attractions like Captain Jack Sparrow, Under the Sea, and 7DMT and get back to building cutting edge, feature rich attractions with the potential for decades-long nostalgic value like they started with 40 years ago.

Because it seems they are currently burning thru their existing nostalgic capital rather quickly.

 

[metzgardesign]

The metaphor doesn't hold for a business wishing to make money, nor do I see it reflected in reality as I've observed it. As mentioned, my family and I have been around WDW, traveling long distances to get there, since the beginning, only meaning I've seen (and experienced) the changes made at Disney along the way. We are also business owners and entrepreneurs, the "boil them and eat them" model of business makes no logical sense as a formal objective argument. A subjective opinion? Sure, we are all entitled to a subject opinion about a lot of things, though it's helpful to realize it is just that; an opinion.

You probably missed the "your line in the sand" part and the "I liken it to...." part, and thus relative to my 'subjective opinion' in metaphorical terms.

Ultimately, I was not suggesting that WDW guests 'get eaten.' but rather.....WDW does and will continue to make incremental changes, which in isolation don't seem to be very significant, but over time make considerable difference in totality.

This will result in some regular-visitor guest attrition. And to the bean counters, at least for now, that attrition is acceptable. With the considerable success in selling time-shares.....that attrition may even be mitigated for the time being.

It has also been shown that many of the frogs do not mind the boiling water one bit, and have a supernatural capability of tolerating the heat and even thriving in it.