What is a "holiday tree?"

[Aidensmom]

I completely understand the origins of the whatever-holiday-you-are-least-offended-by-calling-it tree, but I still don't see why that should make it a generic "Holiday Tree". If you are using it to celebrate Christmas, (whether or not you are a Christian), then isn't it a Christmas Tree? If you use it to celebrate Winter Solstice, then isn't it a Winter Solstice Tree?

What is kind of funny is that I have on this board read posts making fun of Christians who do not celebrate Halloween because its origins were not Christian, and also posts making fun of them for using a tree which does not have Christian origins when celebrating Christmas. So Christians are ignorant and judgmental if they reject traditions outside their religion, and ignorant and judgmental if they accept and adopt them.

I have a Christmas tree in my home. That is the holiday I celebrate. That's what I am going to call it.

As far as the tangent this thead went on about what holidays people get off work for, I am happy to have any days off of work, that it happens to fall at a time when I have something to do is just a bonus. I don't think the reason that many companies give Christmas off is because they are trying to force a Christian holiday on all of their employees, but rather because it is a holiday that is celebrated by a majority of Americans, be they Christian or not. I don't know about where anyone else works, but places I have, holidays are part of a benefit package to entice people to work for the company. In the effort to appeal to the most prospective employees possible, they offer holidays that are celebrated by the highest number of people. I have also worked places that need to be staffed 24/7. I have worked Christmas and Easter, two holidays that I celebrate, many times, and gotten a different day off in place. No big deal.

 

[simpilotswife]

Actually, there are quite a few Iraqi Christians.... About 3% of the population from what I've read.

So it's only a valid religion if it's a whole percent? The whole point though is that they are still in the minority and should count for something but hey.....

 

[simpilotswife]

simpilotswife- I asked why that person had quoted the bible because they had made it quite clear that they were not Christians-therefore not believing that the bible was true. I was curious why they would use it as a reference. I'm not sure how my question led to your above statement?

I read it as she was offering the bible as proof to you since that seems to be something that you believe in.

 

[Geoff_M]

So it's only a valid religion if it's a whole percent? The whole point though is that they are still in the minority and should count for something but hey.....

There was no claim of "validity". I was pointing out that the numbers were much larger than you think. Per the data posted here from the adherents web site, the percentage of Christians in Iraq is triple the percentage of Muslims in the US, but hey...

 

[Puffy2]

I have a Christmas tree in my home. That is the holiday I celebrate. That's what I am going to call it.

I don't think the thread was addressing the question of what you call the Chirstmas Tree in your home, or your church, or your private club or your private business for that matter.

The issue has come up because some people (radical right, mostly, in the media with big, angry mouths) thought it would be politcally to their advantage to attack (literally attack by promoting "boycots" and other financially hurtful tactics) private businesses who only wanted to follow proper business manners and govermental agencies which are only trying to celebrate the season (CHRISTMAS) without being so obvious about celebrating ONE religion and not another (something I think is prohibited in that little paper called the Constitution).

I call my own tree a "Christmas tree". My church calls their tree a Christmas tree too. About 95% of the businesses in our town either say "Merry Christmas" or have banners in their stores referring to Christmas or whatever. So it's maybe 5% of private business in this area that have elected to wish everyone a "happy holiday". Who is persecuting who in this picture? It seems to me, that the "Christians" (or more appropriately, the loud mouth radical right-wing media) are the obnoxious ones trying to force their beliefs on everyone else - some to the point of calling for boycots of any business that dares to wish their customers a joyous holiday.

 

[chobie]

Personally, I think the reaction to the "Holiday Tree" is more ridiculous then the Holdiay Tree itself.

 

[simpilotswife]

There was no claim of "validity". I was pointing out that the numbers were much larger than you think. Per the data posted here from the adherents web site, the percentage of Christians in Iraq is triple the percentage of Muslims in the US, but hey...

Someone pointed out that pagans celebrating the Winter Solstice didn't count because there are so many more Christians. I was just pointing out that Christians are a minority in other parts of the world. Does that make their holiday less important to them when they are in the minority?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No but practically the whole country shuts down for Christmas. What about those people for whom it is just another day?

Jehovah's Witnesses feel the same way about Thanksgiving (country is practically shut down) and New Years Day and all the other "holy" days.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Someone pointed out that pagans celebrating the Winter Solstice didn't count because there are so many more Christians. I was just pointing out that Christians are a minority in other parts of the world. Does that make their holiday less important to them when they are in the minority?

Who said that?

ETA: In terms of retail--it's all about where the majority of the business is coming from. In terms of all else--who said that?

 

[DarkSideMoon]

Whoa, you can't go shopping Christmas day because stores want their employees to spend time with their families..... So sad....

 

[simpilotswife]

100, people, as opposed to what, 95% of the U.S. Face it, A very very select few even realize that Christmas was taken from the roman holiday satranalia. SP?

This poster's comment was made in response to jipsy's post about attending a Winter Solstice celebration. It certainly reads as though the poster is dismissing the validity of the holiday.

 

[DarkSideMoon]

This poster's comment was made in response to jipsy's post about attending a Winter Solstice celebration. It certainly reads as though the poster is dismissing the validity of the holiday.

No, I am explaining why we dont all get the winter solstice off, and get Christmas.

 

[simpilotswife]

Whoa, you can't go shopping Christmas day because stores want their employees to spend time with their families..... So sad....

What if you worked for someone who wanted you to take off for Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur but expected you to work on Christmas and Easter?

 

[Disney Doll]

They have a thread already for the theft of Christmas

The name change has nothing to do with its history. Not in the slightest. It was changed only in relation to present scrutiny and not for historical accuracy.

Can you give us some sources about the pagan traditions of the winter celebration? I'd be interested to read about the pagan holiday tree and what it signifies for folks who celebrate that way.

Meanwhile, I'll still call it a Christmas tree at my house, sorry!

 

[simpilotswife]

No, I am explaining why we dont all get the winter solstice off, and get Christmas.

I think you had better go back and check.

Your original comment was in regards to jipsy's post about how Christmas celebrations are rooted in paganism.

 

[Disney Doll]

No one here is talking about the origin of the Christmas tree, but rather the origin of the Christmas holiday that we celebrate....here in America......with trees in our house as part of the decoration for the CHRISTMAS holiday........ No one here has said that Christians made up the Christmas tree or that the Christmas tree is "christian" (while there are ways to use symbolism to tie it together). The point made here is that it is a bit ridiculous to take a tree that we have used in conjunction with Christmas and now not be able to call it a "Christmas tree".

Maybe you should "read up" on the thread before taking such an antagonistic approach. Most non-christians & christians would agree that trees that Americans place in their homes the month of December are completely and totally related to the holiday of CHRISTMAS and not from Egyptians, Romans, or martians for that matter, regardless of the "actual" origin or history . Just like on Halloween my children and I don't make a goat sacrifice in the backyard and have fellowship with evil spirits, even though Halloween has some dark "origins".

You can't honestly live in the real world today and not see how obvious it is that Christian beliefs are being shut-out in lots of ways. My daughers attend public school here in Virginia and they have studied each year about "Holidays around the World" and with that there is a study of Hanukah (with the emphasis on the "miracle") yet when the study comes to Christmas it only acknowledges Santa (no "miracle" of the birth of Christ). Along with Hanukah they study Muslim holidays and Kwanzaa. I am never offended by these studies but it makes me increasingly aware that Christmas is becoming very taboo.

Wow!!!! You said this better than I could have ever hoped to!!!!!!! I think it's wonderful to learn about all religions and ethniciites. But these days, we are being "inclusive" of everyone except Christianity. Read the Catholic thread...so many misconceptions about what Catholics and Christians believe, so many misconceptions about the churches...it's sad...yet we all are very aware of Kwanzaa and ramadan thses days, aren't we????

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Can you give us some sources about the pagan traditions of the winter celebration? I'd be interested to read about the pagan holiday tree and what it signifies for folks who celebrate that way.

Meanwhile, I'll still call it a Christmas tree at my house, sorry!

I think it was jipsy who actually provided some wonderful information (though he/she thinks we're dumb to not understand it isnt' a Christian symbol ).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What if you worked for someone who wanted you to take off for Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur but expected you to work on Christmas and Easter?

ACtualy in this day and age--most any person can "seek" to have any day off for religious observance. The key is they must abide by company policy when requesting those days as they would any other day. And if Christians aren't guaranteed Christmas off or Good Friday--then those who observe days such as Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur cannot expect to be guaranteed those days off.

And if it is a private company--there is no federal law mandating what days they should be taking off. If a company wishes to be closed or open is up to them.

And if you were hired at such a company as you post--noone is forcing you to take that job. So if one was forced to work Christmas, that is their problem and not mine. (Speaking as someone who did have a job when I had to work on holidays--Christmas included--b/c in some lines of work...they don't close for anything!).

 

[Disney Doll]

Trust me, LLP, I had no qualms that you were trying to point me out as a JOKE. In my very broad experience I have run across many "christians" such as yourself and you all sing the same, albeit off-key, tune.

The Christmas tree is supposed to stand Christ's Tree as so many of you, along with so many of those people in my Southern Baptist upbringing for over 25 years of my life, have been so kind to point out over the 5 years I have been a member here. To now see those of you who call yourself Christians stand up on this thread and become indignant that your precious Christmas tree is now called a Holiday tree, given the WHOLE history of that tree, I find as the true joke. The fact that you cannot accept that a decorated tree is not a true Christian tradition is typical.

You really need to re-examine your religion, as I did many years ago. You'll find it quite enlightening once you let go of everything you "believe" is true and begin to search for what is really true.

I owe DIS moderator Cleo for that bit of advice.

Actually, the belief that other folks have that Christians spend no time "understanding" their religion is yet another thing we Christians find quite annoying. I am quite well-versed in most of the aspects of Christianity in general and Catholicism specifically. I have studied my religion at length, the traditions, where they came from, how & why they developed into how I practice today. Most Christians are not a bunch of "sheep" blindly following a God they don't understand. If you're basing your opinion on the very right-wing fanatically conservative Christian base that we hear so much about in this country, well you are allowing a few people to paint a very large group with a very broad brush, so who may not have done their research???? Those people do not speak for me, they do not think for me, they do not espouse my beliefs, nor do I think they espouse the beliefs of the majority of the Christians in this country. I do think they have the biggest mouths...they are the "squeaky wheel" so to speak, and therefore, they "get the grease". I am equally sure that the radically left-wing liberals in this country do not speak for all the folks whose ideas may lean toward the liberal side. But again, they make the most noise, they are the "squeaky wheel". Extremism in any direction is dangerous.

I have no argument if you choose to call a decorated tree that you put up in your home a holiday tree, a Festivus tree, a Winter Soltice tree or a Hanukah bush. I will call mine a Christmas tree, because for my faith origin, it's part of my Christmas celebration. Where the tradition started means less to me than the fact that it did start. Christianity is not the oldest religion...many of our traditions are Jewish-based, so to sit there and keep harping on the fact that the tradition of the Christmas tree was not created by Christians is pointless....we know that. There is very little about the Christian religion that has not been gleaned from other religions, whether they be pagan, Jewish, Muslim or whatever. Heck, the basis of most Christian worship services is rooted in the Last Supper, which was in effect a Jewish seder. And yet Christianity has survived for a long time, despite its humble beginnings and all its perceived faults, so there must be something to it, right? Justa s there is something to Judaism, paganism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism etc. The people who choose to practice these different religions find peace and comfort in them.

I have no problem with religion. I have no problem with anyone practicing any religion they want. I have no problem if my town wanted to put up a menorah on the town hall green, or if they wanted to do a pagan Winter Soltice ritual, or if they wanted to have all the town employees bow to Mecca in honor of Ramadan. We can all learn from other folks' religions.

What I do have a problem with is putting up a menorah, doing a winter soltice ritual, bowing to Mecca and then telling me that they can't call it a Christmas tree. Because now they're doing exactly what they're trying not to do...they are excluding one group while including all others.

 

[LaLa]

After reading this entire thread, it has become very clear that this discussion is really actually no longer about a "holiday tree " anymore. It has spiraled into a debate brought on by a few posters with an axe to grind. No one is going to change anyone's religious beliefs here. That is not the purpose of this thread.