What do you think about this statement?

[Goofyluver]

I realize that you don't subscribe to that belief, but I wouldn't say that to you anyway, even if I thought it. Who am I to tell you that?

The point being that if you do not subscribe to such beliefs, why do you find such statements insulting or dismissive?

 

[ols386]

The point being that if you do not subscribe to such beliefs, why do you find such statements insulting or dismissive?

I think I would be rude and judgmental telling you, or anyone, that you're going to hell.

 

[Goofyluver]

I think I would be rude and judgmental telling you, or anyone, that you're going to hell.

I've been told worse.

 

[ols386]

I've been told worse.

 

[luvsJack]

I cannot fathom that intelligent religious folks, who claim to be secure in their beliefs, are insulted by others expressing their ideals. Why? Is it an attempt to silence the "wrong" belief? To force conformity to Christian ideals?



I'm not bothered when Christians tell me I'm going to hell for being a non-believer, etc. because I don't subscribe to those beliefs.[/QUOTE

Oh for heaven's sakes. I am not trying to "silence the wrong belief" or any belief. Nor am I trying to "force conformity". I do not think any other Christian here is trying to do either of those things either. How ridiculous.

Why do you insist on acting as though all Christians are trying to force something on you. Christianity is not something that can be forced; you either meaningfully ask Jesus to be your savior or you don't, no one can "force" that on you.

Why is being considerate and not insulting someone's belief system such a far fetched idea?

Do we not change the words we use all the time to keep from insulting other races and nationalities? Why is it so hard to see that the words some are using to describe our beliefs are insulting to some of us and therefore we would prefer they not be used.

I guess for one that does not have a personal relationship with God, it is hard to understand why calling Him a myth or fantasy is insulting.

 

[Tiggernut_jadie]

Can I just ask - and lets be 100% honest here, not what you SHOULD say but what you actually DO say - How do the Christian folks on here refer to worship of other dieties except the 'God' you subscribe to?

Hinduism?

Sikhism?

Islam?

Wicca?

Paganism?

Scientology?

Surely to believe in the Christian God means these people's beliefs are 'just stories'? Or Myths? or - dare I say it? - fairy tales? Surely by saying 'your' God is the right one you are being intoleratn and condescending to people of other faiths?

Me - I'm an equal opportunities believer - I beleive they're ALL 'just stories'!!!!!

 

[ols386]

Can I just ask - and lets be 100% honest here, not what you SHOULD say but what you actually DO say - How do the Christian folks on here refer to worship of other dieties except the 'God' you subscribe to?

Hinduism?

Sikhism?

Islam?

Wicca?

Paganism?

Scientology?

Surely to believe in the Christian God means these people's beliefs are 'just stories'? Or Myths? or - dare I say it? - fairy tales? Surely by saying 'your' God is the right one you are being intoleratn and condescending to people of other faiths?

Me - I'm an equal opportunities believer - I beleive they're ALL 'just stories'!!!!!

I'm saying he is the right God for me. If he's not your God, then that's up to you.

 

[Goofyluver]

Oh for heaven's sakes. I am not trying to "silence the wrong belief" or any belief. Nor am I trying to "force conformity". I do not think any other Christian here is trying to do either of those things either. How ridiculous.

Why do you insist on acting as though all Christians are trying to force something on you. Christianity is not something that can be forced; you either meaningfully ask Jesus to be your savior or you don't, no one can "force" that on you.

Why is being considerate and not insulting someone's belief system such a far fetched idea?

Do we not change the words we use all the time to keep from insulting other races and nationalities? Why is it so hard to see that the words some are using to describe our beliefs are insulting to some of us and therefore we would prefer they not be used.

I guess for one that does not have a personal relationship with God, it is hard to understand why calling Him a myth or fantasy is insulting.

And again...if you don't subscribe to the same belief system I do...why do you care? I find it ironic that some religious folk are so sensitive when people question their beliefs.

 

[luvsJack]

Can I just ask - and lets be 100% honest here, not what you SHOULD say but what you actually DO say - How do the Christian folks on here refer to worship of other dieties except the 'God' you subscribe to?

Hinduism?

Sikhism?

Islam?

Wicca?

Paganism?

Scientology?

Surely to believe in the Christian God means these people's beliefs are 'just stories'? Or Myths? or - dare I say it? - fairy tales? Surely by saying 'your' God is the right one you are being intoleratn and condescending to people of other faiths?

Me - I'm an equal opportunities believer - I beleive they're ALL 'just stories'!!!!!

I refer to their beliefs as "their beliefs". Simple. I do not/would not call their belief system a fairy tale. Cinderella is a fairy tale, not what someone bases their life on. Where did I say "my God" was the "right one". I did say that I know God exists and I know that Jesus is my savior. That does not mean that I believe every other religion to be totally wrong. It could very well be a mixture of it all. I have no idea. Maybe the one who is worshiped in any religion is based on the same God (well except Satanism). I do not think my beliefs are superior to anyone else's. There seems to be too many misconceptions of what a Christian does or does not think around here.

My youngest ds(24) has a group of friends that are Wiccan. I have met them and have asked about their beliefs. I would never insult them by saying I thought their beliefs were "fantasies". I find their beliefs to be very interesting.

Incidentally, although the same son was baptized in our church, at this time in his life he says he is atheist sometimes and sometimes says agnostic. Several of his friends are atheist. We have discussions about religion. They ask questions about my beliefs and I ask about theirs. Its its mutually respectful.

I have friends of many other religions, whose beliefs are completely different than mine. We discuss these beliefs, but we do not judge them to be wrong. Or speak of another's beliefs as "myths".

 

[ols386]

And again...if you don't subscribe to the same belief system I do...why do you care? I find it ironic that some religious folk are so sensitive when people question their beliefs.

We're just a sensitive bunch. Ever hear the expression, "wearing your feelings on your sleeves"? That's me.

 

[luvsJack]

And again...if you don't subscribe to the same belief system I do...why do you care? I find it ironic that some religious folk are so sensitive when people question their beliefs.

You can't figure out another way to question my beliefs than to call them fairy tales? Really? You can question my beliefs all day long. Ask away. Try to prove my beliefs wrong. I don't care. I am secure in my position as a Christian. But questioning what I believe can be done in a more respectful manner.

I find it ironic that so many non-religious folks call religious folks intolerant of others but yet cannot simply find a more respectful way to refer to the God that a person loves and lives their life by. I am not asking you to change what you believe or what you think of what I believe. All I asked is that you be respectful about it.

Are you seriously saying that in all the posts that refer to God as a myth, you don't think even one was meant as disrespectful or making fun of those that believe in God?

 

[bicker]

I said that I didn't appreciate being spoken to in that way.

There is no "that way". That point Tiggernut and I were making is that you were wrong about that.

Bicker, please; saying that"it is their belief" that God is a myth is just excusing the insulting way they choose to speak to or about someone's religious beliefs .

Not at all. You can choose to take offense, i.e., perceive the comments are implying that you personally are "inferior", but that is your choice.

There is no excuse for intolerance of others.

I agree. However, expressing one's personal perspective on a certain set of thoughts is not intolerance.

I have never purposely said anything insulting to someone who is of another religion or of no religion at all.

And Tiggernut has made it clear that the comments that you've misinterpreted were not to be taken as insults.

It seems to be that the only ones on this board who have to be "all accepting" are the Christians.

This brings us back to Eleanor Roosevelt's advice.

So if a Christian voices their opinion that everyone who does not believe is going to burn for eternity; that's ok with you. If that Christian says that the belief that God does not exist is ignorant; that's ok? Why is it not sufficient to just say you do not believe?

There are two things here: What people believe and don't believe, and why. Just saying you believe or don't believe is vacuous. What really matters is why. I think that's the big distinction that keeps getting lost in translation: Some folks want their perspective to prevail by fiat, and others recognize that everyone needs to provide justification for their perspective if they hope to have their perspective regarded as something more than personal preference (not that there is anything wrong with personal preference -- it just isn't worth discussing personal preferences).

 

[luvsJack]

There is no "that way". That point Tiggernut and I were making is that you were wrong about that.

Not at all. You can choose to take offense, i.e., perceive the comments are implying that you personally are "inferior", but that is your choice.

I agree. However, expressing one's personal perspective on a certain set of thoughts is not intolerance.

And Tiggernut has made it clear that the comments that you've misinterpreted were not to be taken as insults.

This brings us back to Eleanor Roosevelt's advice.

And I will ask again. Why can it not just be stated that one does not believe without using the insulting terms? Can you not say that you do not believe because of xyz proves it wrong or abc happens everyday and it doesn't stand to reason or whatever makes you come to that conclusion? That would be stating you do not believe and why. I am pretty sure I can express why I believe in God without insulting anyone.

If I was another race than you and told you that a certain word was insulting to my race; would you continue to use the word when referring to me?

Maybe I just think people and their feelings are more important than my feelings of importance and superiority.

 

[glitterkittyy]

I have read the arguments back and forth on this thread, and here is my comment...surely won't be accepted by some but here it goes anyway.

I respect your right to believe as you wish, but I am not obligated to respect what you believe or to show respect for those beliefs.

Now that's not to say that one should hurl insults. But when asking an atheist how they feel about the devil, god, etc. it would be an appropriate response for them to compare it to santa claus, easter bunny, and the like. Atheists see them as being quite the same. It's not meant to insult; it's meant to be used as a comparison. It accurately reflects their stance on the topic.

 

[Goofyluver]

You can't figure out another way to question my beliefs than to call them fairy tales? Really? You can question my beliefs all day long. Ask away. Try to prove my beliefs wrong. I don't care. I am secure in my position as a Christian. But questioning what I believe can be done in a more respectful manner.

I find it ironic that so many non-religious folks call religious folks intolerant of others but yet cannot simply find a more respectful way to refer to the God that a person loves and lives their life by. I am not asking you to change what you believe or what you think of what I believe. All I asked is that you be respectful about it.

Are you seriously saying that in all the posts that refer to God as a myth, you don't think even one was meant as disrespectful or making fun of those that believe in God?

Good. Then you shouldn't find others that believe differently insulting when they express their beliefs. One who is secure in their beliefs will not be wavered or bothered by the words of others.

I can only speak for my own ideals. Am I intending disrespect when I say that my personal view is that the belief in a higher power is comparable to a belief in fairy tales or mythology? No. And furthermore, it is not intolerant to express one's personal beliefs. If you perceive such language as intolerant, that is your choice and frankly, has nothing to do with my belief system, and instead is entrenched in your own views on your own religion.

 

[pperfectmom]

I have read the arguments back and forth on this thread, and here is my comment...surely won't be accepted by some but here it goes anyway.

I respect your right to believe as you wish, but I am not obligated to respect what you believe or to show respect for those beliefs.

Now that's not to say that one should hurl insults. But when asking an atheist how they feel about the devil, god, etc. it would be an appropriate response for them to compare it to santa claus, easter bunny, and the like. Atheists see them as being quite the same. It's not meant to insult; it's meant to be used as a comparison. It accurately reflects their stance on the topic.

I totally agree. To me it's not an insult at all to call Christianity a "fairy tale". I happen to love fairy tales and find a lot of stories from the bible quite entertaining.

 

[ols386]

There is no "that way". That point Tiggernut and I were making is that you were wrong about that.

Not at all. You can choose to take offense, i.e., perceive the comments are implying that you personally are "inferior", but that is your choice.

I agree. However, expressing one's personal perspective on a certain set of thoughts is not intolerance.

And Tiggernut has made it clear that the comments that you've misinterpreted were not to be taken as insults.

This brings us back to Eleanor Roosevelt's advice.

There are two things here: What people believe and don't believe, and why. Just saying you believe or don't believe is vacuous. What really matters is why. I think that's the big distinction that keeps getting lost in translation: Some folks want their perspective to prevail by fiat, and others recognize that everyone needs to provide justification for their perspective if they hope to have their perspective regarded as something more than personal preference (not that there is anything wrong with personal preference -- it just isn't worth discussing personal preferences).

OK Bicker, tell me what I'm wrong about, I'm confused as to what your are saying.

 

[luvsJack]

I have read the arguments back and forth on this thread, and here is my comment...surely won't be accepted by some but here it goes anyway.

I respect your right to believe as you wish, but I am not obligated to respect what you believe or to show respect for those beliefs.

Now that's not to say that one should hurl insults. But when asking an atheist how they feel about the devil, god, etc. it would be an appropriate response for them to compare it to santa claus, easter bunny, and the like. Atheists see them as being quite the same. It's not meant to insult; it's meant to be used as a comparison. It accurately reflects their stance on the topic.

Maybe it can be better described in real live conversation; because my son's friends and I have had conversations without any of those things being said. They simply stated they do not believe in God and they believe we exist because xyz and that the world exists because of abc. They do not believe He exists. If something comes up in the news about religion, the next time they come by we talk about it. I ask them what they think about it and they tell me without calling any of it myths or fantasies or fairy tales. My point was that it can be said without using words that some Christians find to be insulting.

As I said before, I guess if you do not believe in God, do not follow His word, do not know His love, do not have a relationship with Him; you cannot understand why calling Him a myth is such a sore spot.

It is sad that we (all of us) do not find we are obligated to respect others beliefs. What a much better place the world would be if common respect was shown to all.

 

[bicker]

And I will ask again. Why can it not just be stated that one does not believe without using the insulting terms?

Why are you trying to impose rules on how other people express their perspective? How about you decide how you want to express your perspective and let Tiggernut -- really other people in general -- decide how they want to express their perspective?

If I was another race than you and told you that a certain word was insulting to my race; would you continue to use the word when referring to me?

There is a difference between labeling a person or people, and expressing a perspective about ideas or concepts. That goes back to ols386's and your error before about Tiggernut's comments being insulting: You can't insult ideas or concepts.

Maybe I just think people and their feelings are more important than my feelings of importance and superiority.

No, that's not relevant to this issue, at all.

 

[glitterkittyy]

Maybe it can be better described in real live conversation; because my son's friends and I have had conversations without any of those things being said. They simply stated they do not believe in God and they believe we exist because xyz and that the world exists because of abc. They do not believe He exists. If something comes up in the news about religion, the next time they come by we talk about it. I ask them what they think about it and they tell me without calling any of it myths or fantasies or fairy tales. My point was that it can be said without using words that some Christians find to be insulting.

As I said before, I guess if you do not believe in God, do not follow His word, do not know His love, do not have a relationship with Him; you cannot understand why calling Him a myth is such a sore spot.

It is sad that we (all of us) do not find we are obligated to respect others beliefs. What a much better place the world would be if common respect was shown to all.

I'm a former women's pastor who did believe wholeheartedly at that time. So I do understand what you're saying.

But as an atheist now, I can also understand why it's an apt comparison when "I do not believe in god" isn't enough to satisfy the asker. I never immediately compare it to a myth or fairy tale. I am often asked for further clarification, and that is an easy way to make the comparison so that it is easily understood. It's not meant to be offensive.

I do respect your right to your beliefs. I would defend it to the hilt. I just don't respect the belief itself. If given the choice, I would rather have someone defend my rights instead of my personal belief. That is, by far, the more important matter IMHO for all of us.