What do you consider a lot? Student debt?

[nkereina]

OP, I don't have an opinion on what is a lot because I'm fortunate to not have had any loans through graduate school. But, I think its good you are considering this because I have two close friends who are struggling as a result of their student loan debt. One went to private school for bachelor and masters, living on campus the whole time. She is a mental health counselor at a college now, and makes less than $50K a year. Her parents are deceased and she is not married, so no help financially. Even 7 years out of college, she's still in six figures of loan debt. She's also hesitant to marry her current boyfriend because she doesn't want to pile the debt onto him either.

My other friend has about $40K in student loan debt, but works at a dead end job making $30K a year. She has two kids and is engaged. Because of how little she brings home, her loans have been in deferment for over a year. So she's not even chipping away at them. She's also hesitant to marry her boyfriend because with the combined income, she will no longer qualify for deferment and he will incur the debt too.

College age kids often don't think about the downstream impacts of these loans. They think its fine since so many people have them and its better to get the degree now and worry about the cost later. My friends are just two examples of many others out there, so its grea you're thinking about this and preparing them for it.

 

[sk!mom]

Exactly I could just imagine my parents telling how much I can take & when to pay it back. Advice was welcomed & still is, but by that age I was a legal adult & making my own decisions. This is part of why our adults can’t be functional until they’re 30.

Oh my gosh, I hate statements like the bolded. I know so many responsible young adults and this is incredibly condescending and disrespectful to them.

As to the original question, I would think anything above the amount a student can take on their own is too much. That would make their max around $22K upon graduation. However, I think that you also have to consider future job possibilities and likely salary.

We prefer zero debt and made that a priority. My DD22 graduated in May and is living on her own in another city as is her boyfriend who also finished school in 4 years. We paid all of DD's college costs and she has no debt. That has made her starting out so much easier.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Oh my gosh, I hate statements like the bolded. I know so many responsible young adults and this is incredibly condescending and disrespectful to them.

This is one of the few times I myself haven't gotten my feathers ruffled over a statement like that because I understood what the PP was getting at in the context being spoken about.

 

[LSUmiss]

Oh my gosh, I hate statements like the bolded. I know so many responsible young adults and this is incredibly condescending and disrespectful to them.

As to the original question, I would think anything above the amount a student can take on their own is too much. That would make their max around $22K upon graduation. However, I think that you also have to consider future job possibilities and likely salary.

We prefer zero debt and made that a priority. My DD22 graduated in May and is living on her own in another city as is her boyfriend who also finished school in 4 years. We paid all of DD's college costs and she has no debt. That has made her starting out so much easier.

I know successful ppl 30 or younger also, but statistically the trend is that “kids” are leaving the nest much much later now & are still supported by their parents well into their late 20s. I know a few of those too & I find that to be ridiculous.

 

[mickman1962]

One year's salary in your prospective field. Engineer, 80K, Anthropologist, 10K

 

[barkley]

I know successful ppl 30 or younger also, but statistically the trend is that “kids” are leaving the nest much much later now & are still supported by their parents well into their late 20s. I know a few of those too & I find that to be ridiculous.

i know some of these long term financial supporters as well and whatever works for them/their kids-so be it. my concern is when they aren't educating their kids on how to do it for themselves, and i'm not just talking financially. i know late 20 somethings and beyond that have no clue about how to deal with setting up insurance (let alone what their portion of premium costs), banking, establishing utilities, dealing with a billing error....it just reminds me too much of far too many of the women of my mom's generation (she was born in the 20's/a ww2 bride) who when they became widows in later life had NO CLUE about their own finances-their dh's always paid the bills, balanced the checkbook, monitored/decided on investments....these women were left floundering b/c they had no clue beyond handling the weekly household 'allowance' their dh's handed to them. i remember one whose adult kids basically had to pick up where dad left off b/c no matter how many times they tried to teach their mom how to balance a checkbook she was perpetually overdrawn ('but your dad always made sure there was enough in there-i don't know how he figured it out, he just knew me')-i know ADULT 'kids' with the same mindset of 'if there's money in the account i still have money to spend' (no clue of outstanding payments that haven't yet been run). i see it as a disservice to the 'kid'.

 

[Colleen27]

I know successful ppl 30 or younger also, but statistically the trend is that “kids” are leaving the nest much much later now & are still supported by their parents well into their late 20s. I know a few of those too & I find that to be ridiculous.

But is it really for lack of life skills? Or lack of the opportunities that allowed previous generations to be independent at younger ages? I know a lot of kids (teens/young adults) who have been slow to leave the nest too... but it is because rent, even in my low COL rural area, is about 1/3 higher than it was a decade ago, while most entry and early-career level jobs are paying the same thing they were 10 and sometimes even 20 years ago.

 

[mjkacmom]

But is it really for lack of life skills? Or lack of the opportunities that allowed previous generations to be independent at younger ages? I know a lot of kids (teens/young adults) who have been slow to leave the nest too... but it is because rent, even in my low COL rural area, is about 1/3 higher than it was a decade ago, while most entry and early-career level jobs are paying the same thing they were 10 and sometimes even 20 years ago.

In my area, young adults tendto live at home into their twenties because people get married later, rents are high, and many have student loans. Home prices are also high, so many live with their parents to save up for a down payment. DH and I moved out soon after college, it probably would’ve made sense to live at home a little longer, but it all worked out. My kids are adamant that they’re not living here after college, we will see.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But is it really for lack of life skills? Or lack of the opportunities that allowed previous generations to be independent at younger ages? I know a lot of kids (teens/young adults) who have been slow to leave the nest too... but it is because rent, even in my low COL rural area, is about 1/3 higher than it was a decade ago, while most entry and early-career level jobs are paying the same thing they were 10 and sometimes even 20 years ago.

There's a difference in not being able to realistically move out because of expenses and not moving out because either you weren't able to grow or because you've been given no incentive to do so.

 

[barkley]

But is it really for lack of life skills? Or lack of the opportunities that allowed previous generations to be independent at younger ages? I know a lot of kids (teens/young adults) who have been slow to leave the nest too... but it is because rent, even in my low COL rural area, is about 1/3 higher than it was a decade ago, while most entry and early-career level jobs are paying the same thing they were 10 and sometimes even 20 years ago.

i think it can be a mix of both-or just personal choice on an individual parent/adult child's part. that said-i do think for many today the life skills are lacking. for a variety of reasons i lived w/my mom until my late 20's but it didn't resemble what i see in allot of the situations that we seem to be speaking of. i paid room and board (and no, she didn't save it to hand back to me when i moved out), i arranged and paid for my own car and other insurances, i did my own laundry (and bought the supplies), had/paid for my own phone line (no cell phones back then), paid a share of the cable and other utilities (and knew what the cost was), shared in the upkeep/cleaning/shopping/cooking...it wasn't what i seem to see and hear about with the situations now that i know of-really heavy 'parenting' still occurring. don't dare to mention the concept of paying rent, and the parents handling all the bills to the extent that the 'kid's' paycheck is handed over to them and the 'kid' is given an 'allowance', household duties still being referred to as 'his/her chores' (i often wonder if there's a chore chart on the fridge with stickers). it kind of makes me fearful for the potential future partners of these 'kids'-they may marry someone who has no clue how to handle being a truly self sufficient and capable adult.

 

[morgan98]

But is it really for lack of life skills? Or lack of the opportunities that allowed previous generations to be independent at younger ages? I know a lot of kids (teens/young adults) who have been slow to leave the nest too... but it is because rent, even in my low COL rural area, is about 1/3 higher than it was a decade ago, while most entry and early-career level jobs are paying the same thing they were 10 and sometimes even 20 years ago.

I think it is a mix of both. I am in a career field (public accounting) that hires a ton of new off campus people every year. We pay a good entry level wage with very strong increases every year for top performers. That being said, my personal observations are that many of these people do still live at home - some to save money, some for convenience and some because, why not? Not all, but many, have new cars, brand name expensive purses and shoes, latest technology etc. In other words, not all of them are starting at the bottom and working their way up.

They definitely are paid enough to move out. However, it may not be into a luxury apartment with a brand new car buying all high end clothes etc and going out to eat/drink all the time. Frankly, some of these kids are used to a higher standard of living than they can afford. Not because they are not earning enough, but because they are used to living their parents' lifestyle.

Granted, I cannot necessarily blame the parents for providing their children with nice things and great opportunities. Sometimes though this gives people an unrealistic view of what it means to be just starting out...

 

[QueenIsabella]

I think it is a mix of both. I am in a career field (public accounting) that hires a ton of new off campus people every year. We pay a good entry level wage with very strong increases every year for top performers. That being said, my personal observations are that many of these people do still live at home - some to save money, some for convenience and some because, why not? Not all, but many, have new cars, brand name expensive purses and shoes, latest technology etc. In other words, not all of them are starting at the bottom and working their way up.

They definitely are paid enough to move out. However, it may not be into a luxury apartment with a brand new car buying all high end clothes etc and going out to eat/drink all the time. Frankly, some of these kids are used to a higher standard of living than they can afford. Not because they are not earning enough, but because they are used to living their parents' lifestyle.

Granted, I cannot necessarily blame the parents for providing their children with nice things and great opportunities. Sometimes though this gives people an unrealistic view of what it means to be just starting out...

Yeah, I can't buy that's is so much harder now than it was a couple decades ago. My oldest is mostly launched--I say mostly because we cover her under our health insurance (she does have it available, through work, but this is cheaper), and her cell phone. She pays everything else, including for her car 100%. She has her dream job, but she's a teacher--she's never going to get rich doing that. She shares an apartment, drives a 14yo car, and has 2 part-time jobs.

It just seems like a lot of young people expect to graduate and step into a high-paying job right off the bat and have nice things. They don't want to share a crappy apartment with 3 other people, they don't want to drive a 10yo car (or worse, take the bus), they have to have their iPhone and their Starbucks. Not all young adults, obviously, but it seems like a lot of them look at what their parents have achieved--after decades of hard work and sacrifice--and think they should live like that right out of the gate.

 

[morgan98]

Yeah, I can't buy that's is so much harder now than it was a couple decades ago. My oldest is mostly launched--I say mostly because we cover her under our health insurance (she does have it available, through work, but this is cheaper), and her cell phone. She pays everything else, including for her car 100%. She has her dream job, but she's a teacher--she's never going to get rich doing that. She shares an apartment, drives a 14yo car, and has 2 part-time jobs.

It just seems like a lot of young people expect to graduate and step into a high-paying job right off the bat and have nice things. They don't want to share a crappy apartment with 3 other people, they don't want to drive a 10yo car (or worse, take the bus), they have to have their iPhone and their Starbucks. Not all young adults, obviously, but it seems like a lot of them look at what their parents have achieved--after decades of hard work and sacrifice--and think they should live like that right out of the gate.

Yes! Since I do not have children, I am careful to not be too critical. However, what you are saying above about older cars or having roommates is true. I graduated and started in 1992 driving an older stick shift Toyota Tercel, asking for some suits for Christmas gifts, etc.

 

[disykat]

Yeah, I can't buy that's is so much harder now than it was a couple decades ago. My oldest is mostly launched--I say mostly because we cover her under our health insurance (she does have it available, through work, but this is cheaper), and her cell phone. She pays everything else, including for her car 100%. She has her dream job, but she's a teacher--she's never going to get rich doing that. She shares an apartment, drives a 14yo car, and has 2 part-time jobs.

It just seems like a lot of young people expect to graduate and step into a high-paying job right off the bat and have nice things. They don't want to share a crappy apartment with 3 other people, they don't want to drive a 10yo car (or worse, take the bus), they have to have their iPhone and their Starbucks. Not all young adults, obviously, but it seems like a lot of them look at what their parents have achieved--after decades of hard work and sacrifice--and think they should live like that right out of the gate.

I totally agree with you. My young adult sons are doing very well and are self sufficient, so how they spend isn't an issue. They do know how to budget and are saving for the future. BUT, even they don't "get" my stories about how I lived in my 20's. Their life is so different. I was waaay poorer than they are and was, frankly, sort of proud of it. I didn't have a color tv or a microwave until I was in my late 20's. Cheap furniture wasn't a thing yet, so we used hand me downs. Credit cards were hard to get so spending money I didn't have yet wasn't possible. I certainly wasn't flying across country for friend's weddings. We just sent regrets. This was in the 80's, so it's not like those things weren't available, I just didn't feel like I could afford them. I was busy working my way through my required post grad work for my job and saving for a budget trip for Europe. We didn't prioritize day to day spending, we saved for the future.

Most of my friends also lived that way. I wouldn't give those days up for anything. We had a blast. It's not like we were "woe is me, poor." We had everything we deemed essential. I just didn't know anyone who was living like my engineer son does now, not even my friends who were engineers. It was just sort of the expected norm that people between 18 and 28 weren't financially comfortable yet and they scrimped and saved for luxuries in the future. We didn't even talk about our student debt, we just slugged away at paying it. We grew up on the stories of how our parents had lived cheaply as young adults and just expected it. I was 30 when we bought our first house and I probably would have been even older if I hadn't married and had dual income. (my parents were 35 and 33 when they bought their first house when I was 4) IMO, things started to change in the dotcom 90's when all of sudden a group of young people were making big bucks.

My son bought his house at 24. I know it sounds like complaining, but I'm trying to point out differences. My 20's were GREAT and I wouldn't trade that time for anything. I regret for my kids that they haven't had that. I think the Minimalism trend is trying to recapture that - something people used to have naturally as they went from student to adult to "settled."

 

[Floridaman999]

In fact, 80% of 2016 dental school graduates left college with over $100,000 in debt and 30% with over $300,000. According to the American Student Dental Association (ASDA), 2017 dental students graduated with an average dental school debt of $287,331—an increase from years prior.

Unreasonable by any definition of the word.

No wonder my dentist is so expensive.

 

[tasha99]

I see it as the complete opposite. Undergrad - Stafford loans are the way to go, especially the subsidized ones. But for grad school - you shouldn't have any debt at all - oldest daughter is getting paid to get her doctorate. There are many programs out there where you work to get your advanced degree.

This is so dependent on your field. In mine, only doc students get any university positions, and you have to get a masters first (and work at least a year with supervision) before going back for the phd. Not all programs work the same.

I am well aware of this. I guess my point is that there are also ways to get a college degree without burying ones self in student loans. (Pay as you go one class at a time if you need to, community college, online classes, etc..

And I still believe that if one makes the decision to sign for them, they have the responsibility to lay them back in full. Any I’m not saying student loans are bad. Like I said in my original post, my daughter will be taking them.

The problem is opportunity cost. If it takes 10 vs 4 years, and you are sacrificing a professional salary those years, you've got a hidden cost for slowing down.

 

[STLDisney_Freak]

In fact, 80% of 2016 dental school graduates left college with over $100,000 in debt and 30% with over $300,000. According to the American Student Dental Association (ASDA), 2017 dental students graduated with an average dental school debt of $287,331—an increase from years prior.

Unreasonable by any definition of the word.

Ugh, Don't tell me that...My oldest wants to be an orthodontist and those amounts are just insane. At first she wanted theatre and I talked her out of it because let's face it spending thousands on a theatre major is a joke. Now she is leaning towards orthodontist because loves chemistry and biology.

 

[Colleen27]

There's a difference in not being able to realistically move out because of expenses and not moving out because either you weren't able to grow or because you've been given no incentive to do so.

Yeah, but I think that in these conversations, anecdotes about a relative handful of people doing the latter - mostly in very comfortable upper middle class families - are used to ignore how much more common the former is because of large-scale changes in work, compensation and cost of living over the last couple generations.

Yeah, I can't buy that's is so much harder now than it was a couple decades ago. My oldest is mostly launched--I say mostly because we cover her under our health insurance (she does have it available, through work, but this is cheaper), and her cell phone. She pays everything else, including for her car 100%. She has her dream job, but she's a teacher--she's never going to get rich doing that. She shares an apartment, drives a 14yo car, and has 2 part-time jobs.

It just seems like a lot of young people expect to graduate and step into a high-paying job right off the bat and have nice things. They don't want to share a crappy apartment with 3 other people, they don't want to drive a 10yo car (or worse, take the bus), they have to have their iPhone and their Starbucks. Not all young adults, obviously, but it seems like a lot of them look at what their parents have achieved--after decades of hard work and sacrifice--and think they should live like that right out of the gate.

Except that statistics don't bear this out. It IS harder now, factually speaking. Rents are higher relative to starting salaries and to median incomes. Wages have stagnated while costs have risen, particularly for education (student loans), housing and health insurance. These are facts, not situations created by spending too much on Starbucks and iPhones. I have no doubt that there are kids out there who just don't want to let go of the comfortable upper middle class lifestyle they having at mom & dad's house, but that doesn't change the fact that it is harder for those who do want to get launched to do so now.

If I'm reading this right, your daughter is a degreed professional with multiple jobs who still needs to have a roommate and can't afford her own insurance... how can you argue that isn't harder than it was for our generation? Several of my high school friends became teachers, and even straight out of college they could afford a decent studio or one-bedroom apartment, without roommates and without second jobs, and most were able to pay down student loans ahead of schedule or start saving a bit for future priorities.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Yeah, but I think that in these conversations, anecdotes about a relative handful of people doing the latter - mostly in very comfortable upper middle class families - are used to ignore how much more common the former is because of large-scale changes in work, compensation and cost of living over the last couple generations.



Except that statistics don't bear this out. It IS harder now, factually speaking. Rents are higher relative to starting salaries and to median incomes. Wages have stagnated while costs have risen, particularly for education (student loans), housing and health insurance. These are facts, not situations created by spending too much on Starbucks and iPhones. I have no doubt that there are kids out there who just don't want to let go of the comfortable upper middle class lifestyle they having at mom & dad's house, but that doesn't change the fact that it is harder for those who do want to get launched to do so now.

If I'm reading this right, your daughter is a degreed professional with multiple jobs who still needs to have a roommate and can't afford her own insurance... how can you argue that isn't harder than it was for our generation? Several of my high school friends became teachers, and even straight out of college they could afford a decent studio or one-bedroom apartment, without roommates and without second jobs, and most were able to pay down student loans ahead of schedule or start saving a bit for future priorities.

It's all about choices. In my DD's case, she's living in Boston--a HCOL city--because she likes it there. I also remember my DH (graduated in 1985) sharing a house with 3 other people before we got married. While my DD has more in student loans than I did, back in the Stone Age, they are not a new phenomenon. I will grant that students can borrow more today than in years back, and I don't consider that a good thing. But again, it's about CHOICES. My DD could have chosen a cheaper college and had $0 in loans.

 

[runwad]

For our family 15k was the number in my head I didn't want them to go over in student loans. I thought 15k, that's like buying a car, they should be able to pay that off in 3 years tops!

We have one graduating this May and she has 10k in loans, so she came in under budget. Her sister who will graduate May '20 is looking to come in around 10k in loans too.

I'm hoping they both stay at home after college and pay their loans off and save as much money as they can while they're single so they can start life with a good chunk $$. That being said, they will be paying us rent (not as much as if they had their own place) and taking care of their own expenses. We'll see what the next few years bring.