What can you tell me about Boy Scouts/Tiger Cubs

[LadyJeanPirateQueen]

Oh, and by the way, to a previous poster on Girl Scouts: Not all GS troops do "girly" things. My daughter's troop (yep, I am the leader) is made up of very adventurous girls

I wish the GS troop I had been in was like yours. I am not very girly at all and didn't find the meetings to be much fun at all because they were so feminine. I think the most adventerous thing we ever did as a troop was visit the LadyBird Johnson Wildflower center and the LBJ Memorial Library.

Ladyjean

 

[Stimpy]

Actually, that's brilliant - I would say that is true for the vast majority of scouters and parents. I am pro-scouting, but I will tell you that their stance on homosexuality is one in a long list of STUPID rules they have in place to (as they see it) protect themselves.

Here's another...see if you can follow this for an example of ridiculous rules and policies from the BSA:

The boys had to pass a swim test in order to swim in the deep end of the pool at summer camp. It was a very difficult test, too. Even when they passed and were qualified as a "swimmer" they couldn't swim in the deep end without being with a buddy who was also a certified "swimmer." Okaaay. Well, the pool is also manned by a certified lifeguard, a host of adult leaders and staff, AND....the pool was only about twice as big as our backyard pool, maybe smaller. Good Lord, a bomb would have to drop on the pool for anyone to drown.

On a side note, the whole organization is pretty darn sexist if you think about it. They don't allow girls...how many places in society is THAT okay? We are in need of a cubmaster, currently, and I would be ok doing it, maybe even short term. I was flat out told, "nope, we want a man." I get that, I do, but that often sounds wrong to my ears, always having been raised that men and women are equal.

I agree about the stupid laws too. I have a feeling alot of it is more "don't ask, don't tell"....not that I agree with that. It just doesn't come up.

We do not have the men only policy though atleast in cub scouts. (I believe the BOY scouts still does though) A good portion of our leaders and committee members are women. (like me )

Like I said, I disagree with the emphasis on religion too and I do leave the religious requirements for the boys to do at home with their families.

On the flip side, we do alot of things to instill patriotism that I appreciate. We have flag ceremonies, we put American flags on the graves in the military cemetaries...which is very awe inspiring to see. Our boys were just in a color guard for the local minor league baseball team last week.

 

[Pooh's Pixie]

This reminds me of something and I'm curious as to whether it's changed or not...

I remember the Boy Scouts being in the news a few years ago as having an issue with a boy who didn't believe in God not wanting to say God in the oath. I believe they said he couldn't be a Boy Scout if he wouldn't say the oath specifically as written. I don't remember how it was resolved.

In Girl Scouts, although God is included in the promise, leaders are told that girls may skip over that part or make substitutions based on their personal belief system.

How is Boy Scouts handling that now? I would guess that it varies by leader, some may not have an issue with it, and allow the boys to substitute other words without making a big deal of it. But if a leader wanted to make it an issue with a child, would BSA still support that?

I have not specifically run into an issue with this. However, I think that our pack is pretty tolerant and would probably not fight over something like skipping the word in the oath. Of course, I could be wrong. A lot of things are accepted as long as they are in the "spirit" of the achievement/requirement, etc. I don't know if this would be different.

Good question though.

 

[pearlieq]

Pearlieq, if you're still reading, do you have a link to that info you posted above. It doesn't sit well with me at all, that that's a written policy.

Here you go: http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

The National Council maintains a website for all of the legal issues that surround the organization. You can get specific info about the issues surrounding homosexuality in the "Morally Straight" part of the Litigation section and the issue surrounding religion in the "Duty to God" part.

I may not agree with their policy, but I will give them credit for laying it all out there and explaining their belifs.

 

[LukenDC]

The Boy Scouts ban gay scout masters and gay scouts. They also ban atheists. For the record, the Girl Scouts have no such bans and welcome all girls.

 

[nkjzmom]

On a side note, the whole organization is pretty darn sexist if you think about it. They don't allow girls...how many places in society is THAT okay? We are in need of a cubmaster, currently, and I would be ok doing it, maybe even short term. I was flat out told, "nope, we want a man." I get that, I do, but that often sounds wrong to my ears, always having been raised that men and women are equal.

Fraternities and sororities fall into the same category. I'm completely okay with my sons going to an all boys activity. I think it's great for them to have a place like that, where they can just be boys. I'm also completely okay with my girls going to their all girls activities.

And it sounds like it's your local troop's issue in only wanting a man. That's not the case here.

 

[shortbun]

I knew someone would think this, which is why I tried to word my post carefully, but I knew someone would think I was equating gay people with child molestors.

I DO NOT THINK THAT, I made it abundantly clear in my post.

What I was stating, is that that the average American parent IS going to think that if their child has a gay leader. I would not think that, and I wish no one else would either. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and not realize that most parents wouldn't be comfortable with a gay scout leader, especially because of the nature of scouting.

You missed my point entirely, I wasn't claiming that a gay scout leader would be any worse or more inappropriate than a straight scout leader. I was stating that a large amount of American parents would have second thought is the leader was the case, as sad as that may be.

I hope you now understand what I was trying to say, I was hoping I had made it clear before

My son is not and never will be a boyscout. It is because we are NOT 'average American parents' and we KNOW that gay men are not pedaphiles any more than fathers, coaches, police officers, firefighters. My son's Godfather is one of my best friends and a gay man. He is part of our family and one of the most wonderful, honorable and manly men I know. He camps, travels, attends a weekly religious service, does charity work and is a part of my son's life as well as his three nephews lives. I think the Boyscouts have made a bad choice in their stand on being gay and for that reason I feel they are a bad organization for our family. Any organization that can be so vehemently wrong in such a major part of their philosophy is not for me. I'm also not real excited about their religious orientation but since Boyscouts will play no role in my son's life, I'm not even going to worry about that narrow minded part of their platform.
Hey, anyone can take you camping, canoeing and help you build a campfire and a wooden race car. The way we live our lives is the best thing we can give to our children. Making a choice NOT to have our son become a Boyscout and explaining to him why was a step toward raising a child without bigotry.

 

[happy_redhead]

Personally, I find Scouting a very positive experience for my boys.

Do I agree with all their policies? NO! But as Colson has said earlier, I understand why those policies are in place.

I have found that if I looked at all the policies I don't agree with and made them "deal breakers" my children and myself would not be involved with many organized activities at all. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree on some things and this is one of those moments for me.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

What I was stating, is that that the average American parent IS going to think that if their child has a gay leader. I would not think that, and I wish no one else would either. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and not realize that most parents wouldn't be comfortable with a gay scout leader, especially because of the nature of scouting.

I have more faith in the average American than that. And believe me, my head is not buried in the sand. I honestly know only one person who thinks this way, thank God!

Of course, this will vary greatly by region and other factors, but IMO, a national organization shouldn't be setting policies based on the incorrect and irrational beliefs of the average American. It could also be said the the average American thinks that men who listen to rap music are gang members. So, would it then also be OK for BSA to deny leadership roles to men who listen to rap music?

If BSA really wants to help boys, all boys, they ought to take a stand and let gay boys see that gay men can be helpful, informative and caring leaders, too.

 

[Rence]

I am a gay man who was a cub scout. There is a lot to like about the organization. But their current policy on gay leaders is based on ignorance and bigotry.

My feeling is that the decision should not be made by the national organization but by the parents themselves. I am a big believer that parents need to make these decisions. If a parent wants to "protect" their children from homosexuals - it is their right (it may be an ignorant decision - but it is their parental right).

Big Brothers has the right idea - their policy (which may not be followed by every local Big Brother organization) is that a Big Brother/Big Sister being gay does not disqualify them - it is one of the pieces of information given to the parent - and the parent makes the decision - this is how it should be.

I believe that the boy scouts would be better served by adopting a similar policy. No parent should be forced to have their child in a group with a gay leader if they object. But today, parents who have no problem with a gay leader are denied this option. Say for example that there is a shortage of leaders in a community. As a result, not all children can be accomodated. A gay man is otherwise qualified and willing to serve as a leader - the parents of the children all approve of the leader and would love to have their children work with him - the national policy is an absolute NO - the parents are denied the option of having this man as the leader for their children.

The boy scouts should stop the blanket prohibition on gay leaders - If an openly gay man wishes to serve - this information should be shared with the parents (not the children - the parents - the parents can choose to discuss it with their children or not). The parents then can make the decision - which is where the decision belongs.

 

[DebD4T]

Here's another...see if you can follow this for an example of ridiculous rules and policies from the BSA:

The boys had to pass a swim test in order to swim in the deep end of the pool at summer camp. It was a very difficult test, too. Even when they passed and were qualified as a "swimmer" they couldn't swim in the deep end without being with a buddy who was also a certified "swimmer." Okaaay. Well, the pool is also manned by a certified lifeguard, a host of adult leaders and staff, AND....the pool was only about twice as big as our backyard pool, maybe smaller. Good Lord, a bomb would have to drop on the pool for anyone to drown.

As far as I know, the Boy Scout insist on the buddy system for everything, not just swimming. I believe the swim test is a Boy Scout policy, not an individual camp policy. Just because your camp pool is small doesn't mean all pools are. MHO is that you can't be too safe around water.

On a side note, the whole organization is pretty darn sexist if you think about it. They don't allow girls...how many places in society is THAT okay? We are in need of a cubmaster, currently, and I would be ok doing it, maybe even short term. I was flat out told, "nope, we want a man." I get that, I do, but that often sounds wrong to my ears, always having been raised that men and women are equal.

Our current cubmaster is a woman. I haven't found scouting to be sexist at all. (Unless you want to count the fact that girls cannot join as a scout.) We have been involved in scouting since DS was 7 years old. He is now 15 and just a few badges away from Eagle. (I need a proud smiley here!)

The moms were very involved in Cub Scouting. DS didn't have a male leader until he got to Weblos. Please remember, Boy scouts is a scout run activity. The adult leaders are just there for safety purposes. The boys run their own meetings, plan their own camp outs...etc...

I am the treasurer of our troop. I have always been made to feel welcome at any meeting. Maybe our troop is different than ones that many of you have experienced.

Colson39...

DS and DH had the good fortune of spending a week at Philmont last summer along with about 8 other members of DS' troop. They still talk about how great it was and how special the memories are. Next summer they are participating in Sea Base Alpha. DH and I were just talking about how grateful we are to scouting. We truly feel scouting has made DS more independent and mature. I guess when you have such a great experience in scouting, it's hard to understand why some people are so much against it.

 

[Dancin Desert]

A couple of observations since I posted VERY early this morning ...

About "the gay thing", BSA policy and molestation "concerns", per BSA YPT (Youth Protective Training) guidelines ... (and please don't quote me on this) ...
Adult Leaders are not allowed to be in a tent (or any other enclosed, or perceivably enclosed, place) with a child who he/she does not have parental/guardian rights to unless his child is ALSO in that "tent". NO EXCEPTIONS. Note, this policy alone (IMO) covers the BSA from any molestation issues/concerns/lawsuits. The "gay thing", due to YPT, should be null and void.

As for the "buddy system" and the person lamenting about how her son was such a great swimmer and it wasn't fair to him. I'm sorry you were disturbed, but many "great swimmers" (or great fill-in-the-blank) have died because they didn't use the buddy system. The "buddy system" in Scouts is just simply good policy. I began following it when DD9 started Tiger Cubs, and we continue to follow it at home.

As for BSA being against women ... NOT TRUE. Did you know that scouting has a "venturing" program? "Venturing is a youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for young men and women who are 14 (and have completed the eighth grade) through 20 years of age. Venturing's purpose is to provide positive experiences to help young people mature and to prepare them to become responsible and caring adults." (this, from http://www.scouting.org/venturing/ ) Cub Scouts in our area are fully aware of the possibilities with this path to learning and achievement and are not dissuaded from choosing that path. Also, of the 10 people on our Cub Scout Pack Leadership Committee, 7 are women.

I truly feel sorry for all people who are close-minded (conservative OR liberal). The good of BSA far outweighs the "bad" (real or perceived). It promotes caring citizenship, being safe and doing your best. What's REALLY wrong with that?

 

[Colson39]

Sadly, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. I'm sorry to see that so many people now view the Boy Scouts as just a gay-bashing anti-aethiest organization.

There are so many great things about the Boy Scouts, I can't even begin to tell you. Joining the Boy Scouts doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they do. How many of you belong to corporations, organizations, and/or clubs that you don't agree with every single aspect? How many of you go to churches that won't allow homosexual priests yet you continue to go? The news made the Boy Scouts about sexuality, not the Boy Scouts.

It's obvious no one's viewpoints will be changed here, and I've said my peace. Hopefully each person will do their own research into the Boy Scouts themselves and not rely on information on a Disney message board

DebD4t: I have such great memories from Philmont, what a great experience! I have so many stories from that trip that we could spend all day talking about it...lol. Sea Base Alpha is great as well, I went to their site a couple years ago, sounds like they've really updated the place. Have fun!!

 

[talulabelle]

Beth-

We're in the same boat here, DS7 brought home a notice for boy/cub scouts and really wants to do it. (I suspect because his best friend does it) We've always shyed away from it because of the anti-gay thing. <sigh> I think they still have the ban on gay leaders. I guess we'll give it a try, but I'm not really comfortable with it.

Your son will enjoy the scouts. It really is as good as how it is run on a local level, and honestly the gay thing doesn't affect your child at all. He will be worrying more about camping and building pinewood derby cars.

I don't think of the scouts as "anti-gay" just "pro-religion" and most religions don't condone homosexuality, so that is where the connection is made.

 

[Stimpy]

Hey, anyone can take you camping, canoeing and help you build a campfire and a wooden race car. The way we live our lives is the best thing we can give to our children. Making a choice NOT to have our son become a Boyscout and explaining to him why was a step toward raising a child without bigotry.

I'm a tad bit offended by this statement. I am also raising my son without bigotry. Just because we choose to participate in this organization does not mean I am raising a bigoted homophobic boy. The issue does not come up at all in any meetings, any of their handbooks etc. If it did I would be the first to explain to my son that we disagree with it and why. My son is not reading the legal sections of the website so he has no idea that this is "policy".

There are many organizations that do great things with rules that can be disagreed with. Probably a bad example, but I'll use the Catholic church. I disagree with many of their policies or beliefs, yet I am still a Catholic...although admittedly not a very religious one.

Quite honestly, I wish they would do away with the no-gay policy. Not only for a do the right thing reason which should be reason enough but because also we need the volunteers!

 

[Princess_Michelle]

I don't understand why people get so heated and try to force beliefs on others. If the Boy Scout Organization believes that it is wrong to be gay, then that's what they believe, REGARDLESS of whether or not you believe they are right. If you don't agree, fine, but you can't force them to believe otherwise. They should not be forced to put someone in a leadership position if they don't agree with their lifestyle. Same thing with gender. They want it to be all boys. It's what they want, what they were created for. If you don't like it, find a co-ed program, and if there isn't one, create one. I'm sure there are plenty of other groups that are more inclusive in their beliefs. I wouldn't put my child in a Jewish run club, where it was all Jewish people who participated and DEMANDED that they teach that Jesus was the true Messiah. How dumb is that?? You cannot expect people to throw out their belief system just b/c you are offended. If you are offended, then don't join that group, and find one that doesn't offend you.
So, OP, you have to decide what you believe and what is really important TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. If the beliefs of the BSA make you uncomfortable then don't let your son join. If you disagree, but that particular issue isn't a huge priority to you, then that's another story, but its up to you to decide. The beauty of America is that you can believe whatever the heck you want and there will always be someone else, however nutty or conservative, who believes the same thing. And the two of you can meet and sing songs till the cows come home.

 

[LukenDC]

Sadly, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. I'm sorry to see that so many people now view the Boy Scouts as just a gay-bashing anti-aethiest organization.

There are so many great things about the Boy Scouts, I can't even begin to tell you. Joining the Boy Scouts doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they do. How many of you belong to corporations, organizations, and/or clubs that you don't agree with every single aspect? How many of you go to churches that won't allow homosexual priests yet you continue to go? The news made the Boy Scouts about sexuality, not the Boy Scouts.

It's obvious no one's viewpoints will be changed here, and I've said my peace. Hopefully each person will do their own research into the Boy Scouts themselves and not rely on information on a Disney message board

As a gay man, atheist, and former Boy Scout, I hope that you can understand how hurtful the BSA's discriminatory policies are to me and many other men like me. I was proud to be in the Scouts and think that Scouting is a terrific experience.

Due to my high regard for the Scouts, you can imagine my shock when they unveiled their discriminatory policies and said that gay boys and men are not "morally fit" to participate in scouting. I was equally shocked by the ban on atheists since the Scouts encourage people to learn about other religious traditions and faiths. The BSA even went after Unitarians after the Unitarian Church took a strong stand against discrimination in the Boy Scouts. Scouts could not earn merit badges in any activity sponsored by the Unitarians. Eventually the anti-Unitarian policy was reversed.

It appears that the Religious Right has successfully hijacked the BSA and turned it---at least at a national policy level---from a wholesome experience for all boys into a rigid right-wing organization. Religious Right leaders continue to pressure the Girl Scouts to follow suit (just Google the "Girl Scouts" and "lesbian" to see what I mean), but thankfully their efforts are in vain.

 

[DebD4T]

With regard to religion:
(Taken from DS' Boy Scout Handbook)

Boy Scouts offers religious emblems to scouts. They are not considered scouting awards. Each faith group develops their religious emblem program, including requirements. The BSA Religious Relationships Committee oversees the religious emblem program.

The religions in the book are as follows:

Armenian
Association of Unity Churches
Baha'i
Baptist
Buddhist
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Church of Jesus Christ of Letter-day Saints
Churches of Christ
Eastern Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Episcopal
First Church of Christ, Scientist
General Church of the New Jerusalem
Hindu
Islamic
Jewish
Lutheran
Meher Baba
Moravian
Polish National Catholic
Presbyterian Church
Protestant
Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Roman Catholic
The Salvation Army
United Church of God
United Methodist
Zoroastrian

I know the Cubs also offer religious awards. I don't know where DS' old Cub book is.

Also, one of the scout laws is "A Scout is reverent". In DS' handbook, this law is explained: A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others

The book also states: It is your duty to respect and defend others' rights to their religious beliefs even when they differ from your own.

So, while BSA may take a religious slant, they are certainly teaching religious freedom.

 

[Jennifer S]

And one more question: am I going to have to go camping with my son. I don't camp.

Beth you are too funny and I absolutly agree My DS just finished Tigers and is moving on to Wolfs. Tigers is very low commitment. My DH goes to all the meetings (about 2 a month) and does the OPTIONAL camping trip and the end of the year. I don't camp either.

 

[Pigeon]

With regard to religion:

Also, one of the scout laws is "A Scout is reverent". In DS' handbook, this law is explained: A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others

The book also states: It is your duty to respect and defend others' rights to their religious beliefs even when they differ from your own.

So, while BSA may take a religious slant, they are certainly teaching religious freedom.

I didn't see atheists or agnostics in your list. Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.

Given that two thirds of convicted child molesters are married, I'm not exactly clear on how they are protecting themselves by excluding gay scoutmasters. If a whole bunch of bigoted Americans would clear out of the BSA if they allowed openly gay scout masters, so what? It's still the right thing to do, and isn't doing the right thing what the organization is supposed to teach boys?